This is more of a philosophical post, but I've been thinking recently about the question of "premium", well established brands vs start ups.
There seems to be no end to the number of small startup companies producing winging gear, be it custom boards, or wings. I think this is fantastic.
I've just myself bought a board from Takoon, a direct retailer. The board (a Takoon Glide V2) is amazing and offers excellent technology and full carbon construction for literally half the price or close to that price - AND Made in EUROPE - than the traditional brands such as Fanatic, JP or any other big brands made in some factory in Asia which isn't well documented or hidden away somewhere, like it's not something they are proud of talking about.
Then I see winging brands such as Five-O with their Dynamo for the equivalent price of the Aluula or other fancy materials from the normal brands.
So, down to the crunch question, are "premium brands" charging a higher price for average quality gear? Are they using their established brand image to offer a regular - but not outstanding - quality gear but at high prices? Are they "resting on their laurels", so to say?
Or are smaller brands using lower prices initially to gain a reputation and higher market share, before then upping their prices? Are we fools to accept the model of brand - distributor - shop or is there some value in it, with regards to keeping local shops alive?
Thoughts???
The differeSelect to expand quoteWindyBear said..
I've just myself bought a board from Takoon, a direct retailer.
The "direct retailer" is the difference. You are eliminating the distributor and the shop from the sales chain, who both want to make a profit. So you end up getting the same price that a distributor would pay, which is somewhere around 50-60% of the shop price.
There are some brands in watersports that have followed the direct retail strategy for decades. Gun Sails is one example.
For wing gear, the market is quite crowded, with lots of small and big brands offering decent gear. It can be very hard or impossible to get gear from a new brand into stores. Then there's the cash flow problem: dealers typically get a credit line from a brand, and pay the brand only after they actually sell the gear. So if a new brand somehow would be able to get into a lot of stores, they'd have to invest a ton of money to basically "loan" gear to the stores, until the gear sells. Most brands that are starting out cannot afford that.
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..
The differeWindyBear said..
I've just myself bought a board from Takoon, a direct retailer.
The "direct retailer" is the difference. You are eliminating the distributor and the shop from the sales chain, who both want to make a profit. So you end up getting the same price that a distributor would pay, which is somewhere around 50-60% of the shop price.
There are some brands in watersports that have followed the direct retail strategy for decades. Gun Sails is one example.
For wing gear, the market is quite crowded, with lots of small and big brands offering decent gear. It can be very hard or impossible to get gear from a new brand into stores. Then there's the cash flow problem: dealers typically get a credit line from a brand, and pay the brand only after they actually sell the gear. So if a new brand somehow would be able to get into a lot of stores, they'd have to invest a ton of money to basically "loan" gear to the stores, until the gear sells. Most brands that are starting out cannot afford that.
i think you will find most retailers (well the big shops i know of) have to buy all their stock, some is through pre orders - but the rest - they all take a fairly sizeable gamble even before the season starts - like 250k plus gamble every year. Not sure about the credit line - i may be wrong - but that's what i've been told - by shop owners.
From my experience (albeit mainly with kites) there os far more than just cutting out the middle man and the cheaper price. It's also the large R and D expenditure these big companies have that generally produce a better product in the long run.
. but there are exceptions to this rule. but they are far less than the other way.
Unfortunatly some direct sellers that I've tried...did not just cut on direct sellers...they also try to have more money in their pocket by using weaker material and factory that offer poor quality control. I would like them to jack up their price and offer product that is superior to "traditional" good reputation brand, even if the price is about the same I don't care.I also don't trust big corp that creating trends that totally doesn't make sens by using the power of their so many influencers to let you think that is what you need, when it's not.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
i think you will find most retailers (well the big shops i know of) have to buy all their stock, some is through pre orders - but the rest - they all take a fairly sizeable gamble even before the season starts - like 250k plus gamble every year. Not sure about the credit line - i may be wrong - but that's what i've been told - by shop owners.
The information about the credit line came from a store owner in the US. I had asked him why he sold boards from one brand, but did not sell their other gear, like booms and masts. He gave the limited credit line as the reason; he had booms and masts from other manufacturers with a separate credit line.
That was a small shop that made most the money with other stuff. The lines are clearly limited, so large shops will have to pay for most of their stuff. It's also quite possible that things are different in other countries. In the US, everything runs on credit...
Without credit lines, I'd think it would be even harder for a new, small brand to get into stores. For the big stores $250K+ gamble, it's hard enough to bet right when sticking with the same brands and similar gear. With a new, relatively unknown brand, the risk only gets larger.
Select to expand quoteNordRoi said..
Unfortunatly some direct sellers that I've tried...did not just cut on direct sellers...they also try to have more money in their pocket by using weaker material and factory that offer poor quality control.
Quality control is a matter of size and leverage. Someone who sold stuff manufactured in China once told me that he needed to have someone local on his payroll for quality control to get decent quality. Not sure how many companies are big enough for that in silent watersports. But the big ones who put large orders in every year certainly have more leverage when stuff goes wrong; small, new players are much easier to simply ignore. Big players tend to have a certain budget set aside to deal with warranty issues; new, small, and underfunded companies may instead think their only choice is to stiff the customer when things go wrong (as they always do, sooner or later).
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..eppo said..
i think you will find most retailers (well the big shops i know of) have to buy all their stock, some is through pre orders - but the rest - they all take a fairly sizeable gamble even before the season starts - like 250k plus gamble every year. Not sure about the credit line - i may be wrong - but that's what i've been told - by shop owners.
The information about the credit line came from a store owner in the US. I had asked him why he sold boards from one brand, but did not sell their other gear, like booms and masts. He gave the limited credit line as the reason; he had booms and masts from other manufacturers with a separate credit line.
That was a small shop that made most the money with other stuff. The lines are clearly limited, so large shops will have to pay for most of their stuff. It's also quite possible that things are different in other countries. In the US, everything runs on credit...
Without credit lines, I'd think it would be even harder for a new, small brand to get into stores. For the big stores $250K+ gamble, it's hard enough to bet right when sticking with the same brands and similar gear. With a new, relatively unknown brand, the risk only gets larger.
If your talking about Net30 or maybe 60days terms yes some brands offer terms but I don't know of any Brands/distributors that offer "credit lines" certainly not $250k... shops have to get their own credit lines or use credit cards...
I don't know anything about the financing side of things, but as an average winger who is moving through gear yearly, I say the bigger brands are a better value, because they tend to hold their value better when I resale them. Foil kits from small brands are almost worthless in the used market.
My first thought is that big brands aren't that big at all. I mean Boards and More has from my understanding only a dozen of full time employees. So i think in terms as well known brands and small brands, more often "local" brands ... or spin offs from bigger brands.I really like the boards from AK, wich looks like a small brand with a limited line of products, but is a part of Starboard.
I think both well known as smaller/local/lesser known can have there place.
From my point of view some of the more well known company,s as Boards and More offer a very solid and reliable performance, but personally not all bigger brands do that and just sell because of the well known name. There are small brands that can offer better performing gear, or gear at a cheaper price point, both ways make them attractive depending where you are after, but a lot of them can,t produce the numbers B&M can and stay local because of that. a great wing that I can,t buy in Europe (BRM for example) is completely useless for me.
btw:
My quiver consists 2 diff board brands (AK+KT), 3 diff wing brands (Duotone, Cabrinha, Airrush) and a Cedrus mast with 2 diff brands foils (Carbrinha H-series, Takuma-Kujira,s) so i,m not into a single brand.
^^^ I'm talking big. Ones that made windsurf and SUP for a couple of decades and their wing or prone foil boards are rubbish.
They're finally catching on to sandwich construction at least, but us custom guys are actually installing tracks in a manner that will last whilst the factory brands (often, not always) just drop 'em in.
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
They're finally catching on to sandwich construction at least, but us custom guys are actually installing tracks in a manner that will last whilst the factory brands (often, not always) just drop 'em in.
Sandwich construction yes, vital, but hard to find in wing boards, no idea why. All of my windsurf boards for many years, Goya, Witchcraft etc have been sandwich construction and designed to take a beating. Pretty sure a well used wing board takes huge loads especially through the foil box. Why are so many made with single skin and a bit of wood or PVC under the foot straps.It's often very hard to find out how many of the big brands construct the boards, usually just a marketing graphic without much detail on the actual make up of the board. I bought a Patrik and have been very happy with it, not the latest shape maybe but built tough and has taken a beating. Full PVC Carbon sandwich. If the smaller brands bring superior construction to their products for reasonable pricing I am sure they will find discerning customers.
I used to buy name brand gear from a large local shop. I knew the people who worked there and they treated me well as a regular customer. Those people left and the new people were only interested in squeezing every last cent out of every sale, either not knowing or caring that they were risking tens of thousands in repeat business and referrals.
Since 2016 I have been buying from a couple of internet brands. Switch kites and wings have been exceptionally good. They're currently selling 5m wings for $500 with free postage. After sales service has been outstanding.
The only negative with both internet sellers is that they're relatively low volume sellers. Switch tend to have runout sales to clear stock before they re-stock and it takes a while for new models to appear.
In terms of quality gear that works well, they're extremely good. In terms of design trends they're generally a bit behind the curve. That shouldn't matter for most people. Getting better at riding is always more important than getting newer, more expensive gear.
I'm not sure the resale value is much of a consideration. I've sold name brand gear for a good price, and I've lost hundreds. I've sold Switch kites for a good price, or not sold stuff because it wasn't worth selling. Generally I could ride Switch gear and throw it out and still be ahead.
I've bought 2 name brand wings and hsad an extended demo on another. The first I couldn't wait to get rid of, and got a decent price for. The second I tried to like it but the more I used it the less it grew on me. It took a while to sell and I dropped a fair bit of cash. It showed a fair bit of wear even though it had a very easy life. The demo was very, very good, but it didn't have much top end. My Switch wings are a joy no matter how strong the wind.
Another factor is that it is liberating to have "disposable" gear when you're getting smashed by nasty conditions.
Now this is the 4th seson I am winging. from the start I have chosen less known brands. During this time, I tried Sroka, Korvenn, Reedin and AK boards. All of them have their pros and cons.
For my experience the biggest cons for less known brand is that it is much harder to sell such board. The same was with windsurfing board. When I was riding Starboard, it was quite easy to sell. But when I went to i-99 board which was really good FSW board, I sold it only after two years for very low price. The same is with wingfoil boards. In my country there is still no market for wingfoiling gear and people still look at the logo on the board. And they are afraid of unknown boards.
First question is, how do you define "big" brands?
I think you mean brands like Naish, F-one, Fanatic/Duotone and Starboard/Airush/AK/Neilpryde/Severne. All accomplished wind- and kitesurfbrands that have also 'adopted' foiling (like SUP before that).
North Sails is a 'big' company, but it's wing/windsurf division is not that big and has restarted a couple of years ago, but has some serious power, intelligence and knowledge base behind it. Highlights another part of the philosophical question, big in what (sportsdiscipline)?
In my area F-one has a very well organized distribution channel. Meaning after sales and repair (availability of spare parts) are good to. I used to own a SMIK SUP. I broke a fin and to find a decent replacement had to wait until the next shipment of boards to get a new one at acceptable costs. What if you pop a bladder or break a (hard) handle?
In regards to boards. A lot of brands have contracts with the same manufacturing company. They make choices on shape/design, materials, quality and (retail) pricepoint. Some brands have their own production facility (and have their own technology/way to build a board), some are more-or-less custom. I would take an Appletree surfboard or Sunova over the afore mentioned brands, if they had the shape I was looking for. Don't know if these brands are 'big'.
Same goes for wings, Ozone has it's own production facility (that also makes their parachutes and kites, they know a thing or 2 about flying;-)). My 'old' Ozone wings (say 30 sessions, half of them stored wet because our local climate doesn't support drying your wings) look better than my new wings (from a well known brand) after 2 sessions. If I had the money I would buy their Flux, but local conditions make me desire a 3 size wingquiver. With high end wings that would mean a 3rd morgage.
In regards to foils, some brands were into windsurf and kitefoiling for a couple of years before the wing, sup and pronefoiling took of. Some jumped on the bandwagon early, some had difficulties making the mental switch required, some didn't have the R&D in a particular discipline or type of conditions. Some don't want or can't scale up their production to become a 'big' brand. At one point in time I think everybody wanted a Go Foil. You just could not get your hands on them if you did not live in the right place. Armstrong became a global player from scratch in record time. Have no idea how 'big' Armstrong is (I believe their products are fabricated by a 3rd party).
