Hey folks,
I'm 70kg riding an 89L SMIK board with the GL180 GoFoil front wing. I am ok at going upwind but today I watched a guy completely annihilate my efforts and point WAY higher into the wind. Any tips on:
1. foils or wings that tend to point higher into the wind,
2. technique,
3. how powered you should aim to be,
Thanks a million in advance for any tips you can share. Appreciate it.
P.S. I'm terrible at riding upwind toeside (I always switch feet to counter this) - thoughts on this would be great :)
Some of my thoughts:
HA foils are best for cutting upwind.
Using a harness helps a lot. You can trim the wing better and more consistently.
Switch feet.
Dart works great for me going up wind.
-Keep the wing well sheeted in,toeside this is much harder because you are twisted.Toe or heel i always move the back hand one handle rearward.
Harness makes upwind almost a rest phase BTW.
-Keep wing as vertical as possible to max forward drive.Some extra power is good but too much is slower,when you spill wind the sail is less efficient(draggier) than a smaller one.
-Tilt the board upwind.You want all lateral resistance to come from the foil and not the mast.
Race kitefoilers take this to the extreme (we cannot go that far), leaning out a lot gets sketchy so they bend at the waist.This gives some margin for recovery if you tilt too far and power drops,you slap a chop or breach a tip.
-Point higher in gusts, lower in lulls.Constantly pinching the course adjustments.
-In big chop contour the water surface with leg flex/extend,no mast is long enough to ride passively.
-I try to face forward quite a bit (feet,hips and shoulders) because it works better for me.Upwind and in pretty much any course or maneuver.
-Try doing "too much" and then backing off.
Pointing too high,sheeting in too much,tilting until you get dumped...so you find the limits.
WHAT wind WING ? Dont waste our time without the complete picture. All previous tips are good
Going up wind is one of Alan's many videos.
Also his maximum performance video.
Check out his free videos on YouTube.
Join his Patreon account best $us5 per month you will ever spend. www.patreon.com/AlanCadiz
When ever I'm going hard upwind I'm always heel side toe side upwind is ok but definitely not as effective as heel side
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
WHAT wind WING ? Dont waste our time without the complete picture. All previous tips are good
Thanks for all the tips everyone. Solid advice there, really appreciate it! Props mcrt for all the tips!.
I am on SMIK 4 and 5m wings. Apologies for not listing wing type initially...
Anyone have thoughts on the best wing for upwind ability or how the SMIK wings fair in this category? Cheers
Extend your front arm as far forward and away from you as possible and don't use the front handle. I use SMIK Wings and always use the back handle and the 2nd front handle if underpowered try the 3rd back from the front
first and last handle on Smik wings for me, they go up wind well. Stand up straight, no poo stance, and sheet in to close the gap. Great advice above. The faster you go the more you can head up wind using apparent wind.
Regarding foils, I found the smaller faster foils to be superior providing they and the wing are in their sweet spot for wind strength....once you get smoking you can steer the wing deeper into the wind and have less drag from heeling over...board points more into wind and wing operates at lower AoA so less induced drag etc..... It sucks but I had to buy happiness at different wind strengths lol. Good news is the smaller GL wings are good and cheap in the classifieds.
The GL180 is pretty capable but maybe take a 140 for a spin and see how much easier it is to heel it over and cover more ground. The 120 if it's smoking.
I find going up wind very efficient on the Wing and Foil.
The main things are to ensure you stay powered, have a slight cant to windward, keep your foil at its optimum speed. To really climb upwind, do not over sheet your wing, I like to keep breathing it.
Here's my stats from last weeks upwing run before I packed down and DW'd back.
Obviously I bared off a little on the last tack as I over shot the mack/beach a little. But in general I am close to 90 degrees on a good run. This day was crazy bumpy and I pretty much had to glance my rail at every chop even with an 85cm mast to avoid breeching my foil.
Given how messy and bumpy it was out there I also chose to jibe and stay on foil as opposed to tacking and risking coming down due to size of the bumps, so I lost a little there. On smoother water I'd tack and not lose as much ground.
Ride safe,
JB
Select to expand quoteWindgenuity said..
I find going up wind very efficient on the Wing and Foil.
The main things are to ensure you stay powered, have a slight cant to windward, keep your foil at its optimum speed. To really climb upwind, do not over sheet your wing, I like to keep breathing it.
Here's my stats from last weeks upwing run before I packed down and DW'd back.
Obviously I bared off a little on the last tack as I over shot the mack/beach a little. But in general I am close to 90 degrees on a good run. This day was crazy bumpy and I pretty much had to glance my rail at every chop even with an 85cm mast to avoid breeching my foil.
Given how messy and bumpy it was out there I also chose to jibe and stay on foil as opposed to tacking and risking coming down due to size of the bumps, so I lost a little there. On smoother water I'd tack and not lose as much ground.
Ride safe,
JB
This tracks are great!.
I have measured 77* between tacks.
Not a year ago you were doing 60* JB, i remember i measured your angles in another upwind thread.
That is pointing 8* more into the wind, what have you changed technique or gear wise?.
I am doing 60* in choppy water,Kujira 1210/75mast and Starboard 4m.
I thought i was doing great :(
Your tracks are pretty close to recreational kitefoil perfo, good to know it is possible :).
These are mine from today:
From my 2+ years on various dings, I will say that the Slingshot Dart goes upwind way faster than any other wing on the market. Its raked back wigs and pointy shape pierce through the wind with extreme prejudice. I predict many more wings to follow this trend.
Impressive upwind skills! I have a ways to go. Still struggling with altitude control and speed with stability.
I have 2 Smik wings and love them, but the Duotone Slick i have in 6m and a friend in 5+4 points higher by a big margin.
Wing/Body positioning
A tip I haven't read but works really well for me and is very common in windsurfing is too look over your shoulder where you wanna go. It makes you twist your upper body and the wing will follow.
I,m 188cm tall pretty normal build and when I sail upwind with the Smik 5+4m I grab the front and most rear handle. When looking over my shoulder it allows me to keep the wing on the very limit between drive and backwinded. Only when it is extremely low wind I use the 2th handle from the back otherwise there is just not enough power to keep me going.
Foil:I played a lot with the position of the foil and I like a lot of positive frontfoot pressure, not just on the flats but also in the waves so I always wing that way. Not sure if there is an good or right in it, but works for me. The big but is that when I push the foil further back and rely more on backfoot power and very light frontfoot power I can point significant higher.
Put everything together, right gear, right tune, right technique and the differences can be significant.
Select to expand quotebroVan said..
From my 2+ years on various dings, I will say that the Slingshot Dart goes upwind way faster than any other wing on the market. Its raked back wigs and pointy shape pierce through the wind with extreme prejudice. I predict many more wings to follow this trend.
I would love to try a Dart but not easy in Europe.
The OR Aluula wing should be a killer upwinder but there is very little info on it yet.
I am receiving a pair of Takoons next week, they have a flatter profile than the Starboard (plus they are new) and i think they will point a bit higher.
I know first hand the foil type makes a huge difference,the Kujira goes upwind better than the LOL.Thinner,higher aspect is,no surprise,better upwind.
I might start a thread about upwind tracks, see who is getting best results and how.
Technique,Gear&Setup,Conditions..not that i race or care about "numbers" but the upwind capabilities of the Wing are a big part of how fun it is to ride for me.
Quicker upwind=More downwind :)
Yeh there are wings that point higher than the smik given all variables the same including rider skill - if that is your focus. But with everything you gotta give to get. The smik flags super well - is lightly built and is sick in the waves / downwind and still goes upwind well enough in a good users hands. There is always a compromise one way or the other.
maybe wings with allulla may give best of both worlds (well as close as possible) but even then design is important to.
At the risk of derailing the thread.
I have the Waterspeed app too and would like to know how @Windgenuity makes that image. Mine always look like @Bruuka's.
(OP - don't worry about equipment unless you are racing. Technique will take you 90% of the way there.)
Select to expand quotebroVan said..
From my 2+ years on various dings, I will say that the Slingshot Dart goes upwind way faster than any other wing on the market. Its raked back wigs and pointy shape pierce through the wind with extreme prejudice. I predict many more wings to follow this trend.
I agree that the Darts are very good upwind but IMO, unless you're a well seasoned winger, they need good wind and a medium sized foil to do it (they'll handle a ton of wind). In my experience the Dart doesn't backwind like other wings -- as you head more and more upwind it simply loses power telling you its time to bear off a little. Rather than backwinding it seems to simply exhaust the wind off the back of the wing without any flapping (that I've noticed). My Slicks will gently backwind when you head high upwind to warn you that you need to bear off some. Both are really good upwind but a lot different in feel. The Darts are triangular and the Slicks are rectangular in shape and they both work well -- go figure. IMO, the Darts require more expertise to exploit their potential.
For me, to head high and fast upwind I like to angle the upwind edge of the board down, push hard on my front foot and sheet in as much as possible with my back hand until the wing starts to backwind or I lose too much power (over sheeting will do this but it also keeps the power on until you have to release the pressure and bear off) and I have to bear off, regain some speed and do it all again. Its sort of like two steps forward one back -- go high, bear off a bit then go high again -- rinse and repeat.
