I am an avid fan of the Sf1080 and sf830. They are my go to foils for downwind practice.
but with an aspect ratio of 7.1 for the sf1080, it doesn't exactly fit the bill as a modern, glide oriented foil. Code Foils s series have an aspect ratio of 9.5 across the range, while the KT Atlas sits around 10.5.
the next real alternative to the sf series for downwinding is of course the DW series. The AR jumps from 7 to 12/13. I own the DW 1400 and it's a beast to turn. Very hesitant to purchase another wing in this range for this exact reason - unfortunately there is no opportunity to test it here in smaller sizes.
it seems as North released smaller sizes of the sf wings, the aspect ratio increased to around 12 for the sf530.
my question to the community : is the North SF series in the larger sizes in need of an upgrade to gain more glide while maintaining the infamous low end and pump-ability?
Judging from videos coming out of AWSI this year, most effort seems to be going to accessories and screws, foil drive innovation, and the boards. What can we expect in the foil wing department?
I don't think anything is really in need of an update anymore. I think things like foil section and thickness to cord and profile, etc. we're pretty well figured out even two years ago and all we're really getting is some different packages of aspect ratios, and sizes with various trade-offs. I find the SF line is pretty great pound for pound with anything any of the other brands are putting out even the newest hotness from KT and code and I think the package (sizes, span, AR) is perfect for the stuff I want to do. The only thing I'm really looking for from North is maybe a different layup in the smaller sizes. I'd love to get my 680 in a higher modulus carbon so I can push it a little harder.
Select to expand quoteTooMuchEpoxy said..
I don't think anything is really in need of an update anymore. I think things like foil section and thickness to cord and profile, etc. we're pretty well figured out even two years ago and all we're really getting is some different packages of aspect ratios, and sizes with various trade-offs. I find the SF line is pretty great pound for pound with anything any of the other brands are putting out even the newest hotness from KT and code and I think the package (sizes, span, AR) is perfect for the stuff I want to do. The only thing I'm really looking for from North is maybe a different layup in the smaller sizes. I'd love to get my 680 in a higher modulus carbon so I can push it a little harder.
Nice - a good old dose of reality - good to know the gear is still up there with the best - even if it's actually quite hard to find good reviews of North wings, especially the DW series which is very much invisible on forums and on YouTube.
Not really an update to the SF, but i'd love to see an integrated front wing/fuse like duotone offers with their d/lab line of front wings. Would be nice if they introduced a 'pro' line of front wings as a next big update
Having 2 years experience on the SF1080 and SF830, a year on the DW1400, and three months experience on the KT Atlas 790, I can only say that the KT foil revealed the differences for me.
The SF have incredible low end, but by far not the glide of the KT Atlas. The KT Atlas has both incredible low end and glide, plus it can roll and turn like the SF.
The SF profile wise was never intended for glide. It's just way too thick. Glide is about minimal drag and span.
But in the case of the Atlas, things change. With it's cambered trailing edge, you can have a thin profile (because the camber also adds strength across the span) and less span, overall resulting in minimal drag. That Kane kid is super smart!
The DW1400 tries a similar camber profile philosophy as the Atlas (see pic, the bigger one is the DW) but it camber is much less pronounced..the span is large and the wing is thick (I guess for strenght across the span. The layup is HM carbon.. maybe that was needed for adding strength across the 1400mm)
Some of my results of back to back testing.
1) Turning on the DW1400 has always been mission impossible for me, even with the suitable s142 stab. At the same time taking a large size KT Atlas (980) the thing turned smooth as ever.
2) low end: both DW1400 and KT 980 are identical and allow to get going on 8 knots. The KT was even better because once up it accelerates like a North HA1050!
Seeing the benefits of the cambered profile with less span and thin profile were an eye opener. This realization that here is a new Gen foil, plus the fact that North is hardly putting any info on the DW out there (.. no review videos, Gav did a few seconds on the DW750 in a video...but other than that there is so little info on the DW. Adrien Destang is the only one on IG showing glimpses of the DW.) ....convinced me that I needed that next Gen foil that KT offered.
I think all that's needed from North (if Mike and the crew are reading this) is a bit more video material out there on the DW. All I hear North taking about are the SF and MA. But zero on the DW range.
And for all the hype around the MA, I rode a friend's MA1050 the other day, in direct comparison against the KT.. while the KT felt loose and dreamy, the MA1050 felt heavy, slow, too much on rails. I couldn't wait to get my KT back. That's a pure honest assessment.
And my friend has now (after riding the KT) put his MA1050 plus entire North set up for sale. As he knows now what he wants. He got the taste of this next Gen foil.
Nothing here is to talk bad about North. I created the other thread on the North Sonar with its 200.000+ views!!! And posted 100s of posts in it.
My last hope was the DW830 but it was months out of stock.. super frustrating to be honest. I mean we're post COVID, and you'd expect things to be in stock.
Been loving my North setup for a full two years and a bit, but the lack of new stuff coming out (or lack of useful reviews/info on the DW range).. just nudged me to invest into a new direction.
Select to expand quoteMProject04 said..
Having 2 years experience on the SF1080 and SF830, a year on the DW1400, and three months experience on the KT Atlas 790, I can only say that the KT foil revealed the differences for me.
The SF have incredible low end, but by far not the glide of the KT Atlas. The KT Atlas has both incredible low end and glide, plus it can roll and turn like the SF.
The SF profile wise was never intended for glide. It's just way too thick. Glide is about minimal drag and span.
But in the case of the Atlas, things change. With it's cambered trailing edge, you can have a thin profile (because the camber also adds strength across the span) and less span, overall resulting in minimal drag. That Kane kid is super smart!
The DW1400 tries a similar camber profile philosophy as the Atlas (see pic, the bigger one is the DW) but it camber is much less pronounced..the span is large and the wing is thick (I guess for strenght across the span. The layup is HM carbon.. maybe that was needed for adding strength across the 1400mm)
Some of my results of back to back testing.
1) Turning on the DW1400 has always been mission impossible for me, even with the suitable s142 stab. At the same time taking a large size KT Atlas (980) the thing turned smooth as ever.
2) low end: both DW1400 and KT 980 are identical and allow to get going on 8 knots. The KT was even better because once up it accelerates like a North HA1050!
Seeing the benefits of the cambered profile with less span and thin profile were an eye opener. This realization that here is a new Gen foil, plus the fact that North is hardly putting any info on the DW out there (.. no review videos, Gav did a few seconds on the DW750 in a video...but other than that there is so little info on the DW. Adrien Destang is the only one on IG showing glimpses of the DW.) ....convinced me that I needed that next Gen foil that KT offered.
I think all that's needed from North (if Mike and the crew are reading this) is a bit more video material out there on the DW. All I hear North taking about are the SF and MA. But zero on the DW range.
And for all the hype around the MA, I rode a friend's MA1050 the other day, in direct comparison against the KT.. while the KT felt loose and dreamy, the MA1050 felt heavy, slow, too much on rails. I couldn't wait to get my KT back. That's a pure honest assessment.
And my friend has now (after riding the KT) put his MA1050 plus entire North set up for sale. As he knows now what he wants. He got the taste of this next Gen foil.
Nothing here is to talk bad about North. I created the other thread on the North Sonar with its 200.000+ views!!! And posted 100s of posts in it.
My last hope was the DW830 but it was months out of stock.. super frustrating to be honest. I mean we're post COVID, and you'd expect things to be in stock.
Been loving my North setup for a full two years and a bit, but the lack of new stuff coming out (or lack of useful reviews/info on the DW range).. just nudged me to invest into a new direction.
Can't comment on performance of the KT foils but FULLY agree with you that more information is needed on the downwind foils. It's like North really do not give a s**t about these foils they made. In this day and age, it isn't good enough to make a designer notes video and then forget about the whole thing and job done. People nowadays don't just buy based on a brands opinion. they want feedback from the community. Triangulate the information. And I don't see that information coming through the dealers, either.
not to rant but you look at Code, Axis and they have built up a community around the foils and people are willing to post videos. I just ran though the Code foils website and they literally have a video for each and every foil wing they release. They are not fancy, well designed videos. Just simple, factual videos about the foils. The sound may be muffled. And video a bit grainy on some. Nothing is too polished. But they know what they are offering and are not afraid to boast about it. and yes, many of the other videos out there are from paid influencers, but they also provide valuable information and another point of view to what the brands themselves give out.
rant over.
North - if you are listening, take it as free friendly advice from a loyal customer - you need to up your game !
Good thread here.
Lots of people at my local beach went thru the same motions. Started with North, evolved with North and then found their limits and recently switched to KT and Code.
I ride a quiver of KT Atlas and I totally subscribe with whats written above.
I tried back to back the Atlas 680/790/960 with the dw 750/900/1100.
The Atlas is a pure joy to ride. Very early lift, glide heaven and maintains a very healthy turn ability at both low and high speed.
North dw's are good, but more technical. The stall speed is higher and, particularly in sizes larger than 900, they dont turn that well.
Having said so, the main reason why people moved away from North is
1. lack of an allround ~10AR front wing comparable to an Armstrong HAv2, Code S or KT Atlas
2. the connection mast/fuse.
The North HAs are some of the worst HA I tried. Granted they are fast, but definitely not user friendly as the above. The SF are easier, but way too slow to compete with other more performing foils.
With regard to stiffness, we first tried to shock several assembled foils left and right with the board upside down to mimic the likely forces applied to the foils while ridden.
The KT and, even more so, the Code foils (larger sizes Atlas 1130 and 1250R) are really rock solid.
The North (dw900), even with the HM mast, were so suprisingly wobbly in comparison.
We then ask Code riders to try the North dw with their board and most of them enjoyed the North dw glide but hate the wobbly feeling when ridden powered.
Yeah, I think the connection issue above is that the test was done with the carbon fuse. The aluminum fuse is LIGHTYEARS stiffer. I don't think I'd consider a carbon fuse in the future - esp considering my track record breaking gear.
I do think north's marketing probably suffered not competing with everyone on the exact 10 AR but i also think alot of riders should be on lower AR gear. For the sizes of my daily I honestly find 10 to be too much and I ended up on the SF 930 because it really hit the sweet spot on span for the size I wanted. I found a lot of the other stuff mentioned to just be too much span and I didn't like the way it turned.
I feel similar to what's been shared above in the last few posts.
Been riding North Sonar foils for the past two years.
My progression with North has been this... HA (650/850) > MA > MAV2 (850/700) > SF (680/930) > DW (750/900).
As my skill has increased with winging and with parawinging entering my quiver, I have recently been feeling frustrated with the system. For me, this is a combination of the struggle with the DW series in addition to the unavailability of their products. In Canada, for the past year it's been a struggle to get the foils I need/want including the HM masts and specific sizes of both the SF and DW series.
I have been selling off my North foil gear and will likely end up with KT.
Because I don't have the ability to demo new foils, for those who have switched, would you say that the SF series would be similar to the KT Nomad? Trying to decide how to build the new foil quiver and if it makes sense to have both the Nomad and Atlas.
Live2play:
I have an atlas 790 and it has everything that the sf830 has to offer in terms of agility turn n burn etc.. and on top it has more glide and low end. I ride the atlas in waves .. super fun. And tons of fun riding lake bumps.
I also just got a Nomad 980 for parawing which is super stable and good low end. I havent yet pushed its surf abilities but surely its there.
I ride both with atlas 170 stab and the 85 carbon mast.
When I first tested back to back I didn't think twice, and haven't looked back since my switch.
One thing with the atlas.. when riding in choppy waters the first times you'll feel every bit of energy especially the higher up you are. Coming from the SF this may feel a bit too nervous, but after two sessions you ll be used to that feeling...the foil just connects you with the energy underneath with amplification factor of x5
Again lots of love and warmth for North but I waited too long for things to arrive in stock, the DW1400 never felt good, and I needed a next Gen foil.
Select to expand quotelive2play said..
I feel similar to what's been shared above in the last few posts.
Been riding North Sonar foils for the past two years.
My progression with North has been this... HA (650/850) > MA > MAV2 (850/700) > SF (680/930) > DW (750/900).
As my skill has increased with winging and with parawinging entering my quiver, I have recently been feeling frustrated with the system. For me, this is a combination of the struggle with the DW series in addition to the unavailability of their products. In Canada, for the past year it's been a struggle to get the foils I need/want including the HM masts and specific sizes of both the SF and DW series.
I have been selling off my North foil gear and will likely end up with KT.
Because I don't have the ability to demo new foils, for those who have switched, would you say that the SF series would be similar to the KT Nomad? Trying to decide how to build the new foil quiver and if it makes sense to have both the Nomad and Atlas.
I cant recommend the Atlas enough. Dont be fooled by the span as they really do turn very very well.
Nomad vs Atlas It depends whether you after tight carves or glide.
If you into prawinging I';d definitely recommend the Atlas.
If you want a looser feeling Atlas front + Nomad tail is very popular combo.
MProject04 and SlowlyButSurely,
Really great feedback, thanks.
This foil is going to be mainly for parawinging, I'm 75kg, will the smallest tails in the Atlas and Nomad work for the smaller sizes in the front wings?
Select to expand quotelive2play said..
MProject04 and SlowlyButSurely,
Really great feedback, thanks.
This foil is going to be mainly for parawinging, I'm 75kg, will the smallest tails in the Atlas and Nomad work for the smaller sizes in the front wings?
I'm 75 and super happy with the 170 atlas stab on both my Atlas and Nomad fw. The shimming system works nice too. I never felt something was out of balance.
Agree with most of the sentiments above.
Was on SF 930/680, HA1050 (worst), MA 850v2. (178/208/142 tails)
Sold all my North gear and have been on Atlas 570/790 this season.
lakes+river wind swell rider 77kg. Tails: Atlas 145, kujira and KD Maui tails (yes, they fit - and so do the AFS tails)
Very happy I switched - it's just a better match to my conditions and preferences in every way.
Tried the Nomad a couple of times, but I much prefer the Atlas.
Hi I'm a 67 kg intermediate rider. I user north since last year. I've 830S - 1050HA and 1450 HA (old generation). I sold the 1050HA because I hate the stall at low speed ! My 830S has an excellent low end and I fly with 12 kn (as 1050). The 1450 HA is really easy when the wind is 9 kn but is slow and too big with some waves (no glide enough).
Witch front you suggest me for the range 8 - 12 kn ?
1080S I know is too slow (probably similar to my 1450HA) ...I like glide and manovrability....pheraps the 900DW is the right choise ?
Select to expand quoteSlash65 said..
1080S I know is too slow (probably similar to my 1450HA) ...I like glide and manovrability....pheraps the 900DW is the right choise ?
DW series is not the right one for you if you are looking for maneuverability!
A friend says that DW is better than surf on small size (750 - 900) ... I didn't like 1050HA ...this front has not a good low end for me and speed is not more than 830 surf ...also the glide is not so good as an HA series suggest...
I think North has not good solutions for the low wind range ... I tried 1080 surf and it drag too much ...I need to try a 1100 or 900 dw or a 1050 MA
My idea is to cover 9 - 15 kn selling Aldo my 1450HA (old serie)... but I'm not sure MA1050 is enough even I think it is much better than 1050 HA
Select to expand quoteSlash65 said..
A friend says that DW is better than surf on small size (750 - 900) ... I didn't like 1050HA ...this front has not a good low end for me and speed is not more than 830 surf ...also the glide is not so good as an HA series suggest...
I think North has not good solutions for the low wind range ... I tried 1080 surf and it drag too much ...I need to try a 1100 or 900 dw or a 1050 MA
My idea is to cover 9 - 15 kn selling Aldo my 1450HA (old serie)... but I'm not sure MA1050 is enough even I think it is much better than 1050 HA
I've had the DW1100 for a year now. I can say the glide and pump met my expectations. If you're looking for a 9-15 kt foil, it def has that low end.
Like most of the high aspect larger DW foils, turning is not its main attribute. If I had to equate it to surfing, it's more like long boarding. I have gotten where I can jibe and tack pretty tight w it but I keep low and aggressive. 65 fuse and 142 or 145 stab work great w it. I've got the 820DW but we haven't had decent wind for over a month. TBcontinued.
Select to expand quoteSlash65 said..
A friend says that DW is better than surf on small size (750 - 900) ... I didn't like 1050HA ...this front has not a good low end for me and speed is not more than 830 surf ...also the glide is not so good as an HA series suggest...
I think North has not good solutions for the low wind range ... I tried 1080 surf and it drag too much ...I need to try a 1100 or 900 dw or a 1050 MA
My idea is to cover 9 - 15 kn selling Aldo my 1450HA (old serie)... but I'm not sure MA1050 is enough even I think it is much better than 1050 HA
I have a HA1050 on 75L midlength for light wind and a HA 850 and they glide onto fast moving swell like nothing else ive used. Armstrong and Axis guys I foil with dont seem to get the same glide and pump.
IMO these foils improved my riding as the stall speed keeps you on your toes ( pardon the pun)
Yep you hit the nail on the head. The HA foils glide unreal and i foil with armstrong and Axis guys and they dont catch and keep up with swell like i do.
Select to expand quoteSlash65 said..
A friend says that DW is better than surf on small size (750 - 900) ... I didn't like 1050HA ...this front has not a good low end for me and speed is not more than 830 surf ...also the glide is not so good as an HA series suggest...
I think North has not good solutions for the low wind range ... I tried 1080 surf and it drag too much ...I need to try a 1100 or 900 dw or a 1050 MA
My idea is to cover 9 - 15 kn selling Aldo my 1450HA (old serie)... but I'm not sure MA1050 is enough even I think it is much better than 1050 HA
I have the SF530, 680 and 830 but only use them on steep enough waves with a bit of power, then they're an absolute joy. I've been using my DW820 for downwind but also tried it out recently on a big point break. There was a short critical section before it quickly mellowed out into a fast but fat shoulder, which would have been tough to stay with on the SFs due to their lack of glide. It actually did very well, allowed me to rip turns into the steep section then back out onto the shoulder without falling off the back of the wave. I was really surprised how well it turned relative to its wingspan, it certainly wasn't worlds apart from the 830. Didn't feel the need to swap over to an SF at all. So I can see where your friend is coming from. I think it's pretty telling also that the foil section on the newer SF530 is reflexed towards the trailing edge like the DWs are, while the older SFs aren't.
Select to expand quotescrewball said..Slash65 said..
A friend says that DW is better than surf on small size (750 - 900) ... I didn't like 1050HA ...this front has not a good low end for me and speed is not more than 830 surf ...also the glide is not so good as an HA series suggest...
I think North has not good solutions for the low wind range ... I tried 1080 surf and it drag too much ...I need to try a 1100 or 900 dw or a 1050 MA
My idea is to cover 9 - 15 kn selling Aldo my 1450HA (old serie)... but I'm not sure MA1050 is enough even I think it is much better than 1050 HA
I have the SF530, 680 and 830 but only use them on steep enough waves with a bit of power, then they're an absolute joy. I've been using my DW820 for downwind but also tried it out recently on a big point break. There was a short critical section before it quickly mellowed out into a fast but fat shoulder, which would have been tough to stay with on the SFs due to their lack of glide. It actually did very well, allowed me to rip turns into the steep section then back out onto the shoulder without falling off the back of the wave. I was really surprised how well it turned relative to its wingspan, it certainly wasn't worlds apart from the 830. Didn't feel the need to swap over to an SF at all. So I can see where your friend is coming from. I think it's pretty telling also that the foil section on the newer SF530 is reflexed towards the trailing edge like the DWs are, while the older SFs aren't.
@screwball I've been on the SF680 the last year, love it, ride it in 12 to 35, so fun when energy in the water. What are your thoughts on the SF530? any additional goodness there worth exploring versus the 680? I'm tempted by the DW range also but have analysis paralysis on it.
Select to expand quoteUisceBeatha said..screwball said..Slash65 said..
A friend says that DW is better than surf on small size (750 - 900) ... I didn't like 1050HA ...this front has not a good low end for me and speed is not more than 830 surf ...also the glide is not so good as an HA series suggest...
I think North has not good solutions for the low wind range ... I tried 1080 surf and it drag too much ...I need to try a 1100 or 900 dw or a 1050 MA
My idea is to cover 9 - 15 kn selling Aldo my 1450HA (old serie)... but I'm not sure MA1050 is enough even I think it is much better than 1050 HA
I have the SF530, 680 and 830 but only use them on steep enough waves with a bit of power, then they're an absolute joy. I've been using my DW820 for downwind but also tried it out recently on a big point break. There was a short critical section before it quickly mellowed out into a fast but fat shoulder, which would have been tough to stay with on the SFs due to their lack of glide. It actually did very well, allowed me to rip turns into the steep section then back out onto the shoulder without falling off the back of the wave. I was really surprised how well it turned relative to its wingspan, it certainly wasn't worlds apart from the 830. Didn't feel the need to swap over to an SF at all. So I can see where your friend is coming from. I think it's pretty telling also that the foil section on the newer SF530 is reflexed towards the trailing edge like the DWs are, while the older SFs aren't.
@screwball I've been on the SF680 the last year, love it, ride it in 12 to 35, so fun when energy in the water. What are your thoughts on the SF530? any additional goodness there worth exploring versus the 680? I'm tempted by the DW range also but have analysis paralysis on it.
I haven't spent a lot of time on it yet. Similar to you the 680 tends to be my daily driver for wave riding with a S122 tail on a 65l midlength. Has to be pretty big (long period overhead stuff) before the 680 starts to get nervous. So unless you're really lightweight or looking to ride fast overhead waves I don't think there's any advantage over the 680. Mine will only be coming out for the really big days and tow foiling. I'm enjoying the 820 more than I thought I would, i expected it to be a bit of a one trick pony. Only regret is possibly sizing. I can definitely see a role for the DW690 for riding some of the fatter waves around here, but probably too much overlap with the 820. I'd be curious to hear from other people who have ridden both the HAs and DWs, not sure what the HAs really offer over the DWs these days.
Select to expand quotescrewball said..UisceBeatha said..screwball said..Slash65 said..
A friend says that DW is better than surf on small size (750 - 900) ... I didn't like 1050HA ...this front has not a good low end for me and speed is not more than 830 surf ...also the glide is not so good as an HA series suggest...
I think North has not good solutions for the low wind range ... I tried 1080 surf and it drag too much ...I need to try a 1100 or 900 dw or a 1050 MA
My idea is to cover 9 - 15 kn selling Aldo my 1450HA (old serie)... but I'm not sure MA1050 is enough even I think it is much better than 1050 HA
I have the SF530, 680 and 830 but only use them on steep enough waves with a bit of power, then they're an absolute joy. I've been using my DW820 for downwind but also tried it out recently on a big point break. There was a short critical section before it quickly mellowed out into a fast but fat shoulder, which would have been tough to stay with on the SFs due to their lack of glide. It actually did very well, allowed me to rip turns into the steep section then back out onto the shoulder without falling off the back of the wave. I was really surprised how well it turned relative to its wingspan, it certainly wasn't worlds apart from the 830. Didn't feel the need to swap over to an SF at all. So I can see where your friend is coming from. I think it's pretty telling also that the foil section on the newer SF530 is reflexed towards the trailing edge like the DWs are, while the older SFs aren't.
@screwball I've been on the SF680 the last year, love it, ride it in 12 to 35, so fun when energy in the water. What are your thoughts on the SF530? any additional goodness there worth exploring versus the 680? I'm tempted by the DW range also but have analysis paralysis on it.
I haven't spent a lot of time on it yet. Similar to you the 680 tends to be my daily driver for wave riding with a S122 tail on a 65l midlength. Has to be pretty big (long period overhead stuff) before the 680 starts to get nervous. So unless you're really lightweight or looking to ride fast overhead waves I don't think there's any advantage over the 680. Mine will only be coming out for the really big days and tow foiling. I'm enjoying the 820 more than I thought I would, i expected it to be a bit of a one trick pony. Only regret is possibly sizing. I can definitely see a role for the DW690 for riding some of the fatter waves around here, but probably too much overlap with the 820. I'd be curious to hear from other people who have ridden both the HAs and DWs, not sure what the HAs really offer over the DWs these days.
Thanks, appreciate that. Listen to the latest X-Foils podcast to hear Mike Rapier wax lyrical about the 680. I have the 930 and the HA850. 930 rarely gets used now but keeping it for parawinging (just need a midlength). HA850 is fast but the lack of pump feedback and high stall speed kills me, I like to pump up and onto swell before dropping in and it just stalls out so quickly.
Im at the point where with my 680 930 quiver I almost never touch the 930. I can foil the 680 in gutless micro conditions prone(200lbs east coast USA). I've done 4 mile DW surf prone runs in 10kts and 2ft at 6 sec. Now that I'm tuned to it there's barely any conditions where I want the 930.
i don't think there anything wrong with the 930. At the time I was on it the size and AR were the right blend of turning and pump to be my daily. If I had tried the 680 as my daily then I wouldn't have been successful, all that time on foil helped get
my fitness and skill up so I could daily the 680(even after 7 years of prone). I don't necessarily think something higher AR would have been better but now I'd love a BIT more foil than the 680 (but def not as big as the 830) as my daily and have the 580(or whatever the size is) as my Step up. Maybe something in the 730 range would be ideal.
The SF range are good foils and all good foils are about the same - just slightly different packages of size, AR, and span between the brands offerings. I think as we get to the extreme of small foils in weak conditions the nuance of small difference matters more and more. I think having a foil that hits the exact numbers I want is more important than any brand's designs, foil sections, construction, or unique feel.
