Been on the SUP foil for since July and recently got onto wingding in December. Armstrong 72cm Mast, 1550 and 1250 front wings (1250 xmas gift to self) 60cm fuse and 232 tail. (Seeing the discussions on the HS1250 here, I agree. I find the 1250 to be amazing and holds up very well even in lighter wind. Thinking I may want to sell my 1550 and swap in for 1850. Love the 1550, but relatively close to 1250)
Question, as I still have a lot of skill challenges in altitude control. When I was supping in Sydney (bigger waves) over month of August, I breached lot of the time with he taller waves (Makaha is amazing!!!!). Wish I had the 1250 back then as it would have helped. Less breaching in WA Perth waves of course.
Now with Wingding, I am back to really struggling with altitude control and just started a few down winders. In Denmark I was finding timing the larger swells rise and fall a tricky combination too.
My question is for the really crazy extra cost of the Armstrong mast of 1100 bucks, is the +13cm from 72cm to 85cm really worth it? should I just practice more? Should I look at the 100cm mast? Is that too tall?
This mast stuff does seem to be an area Axis has a great $$$ advantage as the aluminium masts lengths seem really cheap relative to the setup to have different mast lengths.
I got the 85cm mast after having been on the 72cm surfing and winging for 12 months or so and although I will still use the 72cm for surfing it is well worth the upgrade to 85cm for winging , it makes a huge difference to breaching when you are out in the ocean swells and on the first session couldnt believe that amount extra length made such a difference .
The one caveat to that is that to get the best out of the 1250 when riding swells is you need to trim it up pretty high as any extra in the water slows you down and if you are tired or feeling lazy at the end of the session you really notice the difference by leaving the foil deeper i nthe water .
Select to expand quotekiter64 said..
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The one caveat to that is that to get the best out of the 1250 when riding swells is you need to trim it up pretty high as any extra in the water slows you down and if you are tired or feeling lazy at the end of the session you really notice the difference by leaving the foil deeper i nthe water .
Thank you. That is v.helpful. Was wondering if I should keep the 72cm mast.
My thinking is you get at most 50cm useful mast length out of the 72cm mast (foil minimum depth and minimum board clearance) and in a turn that would be at most 40cm.So adding 13cm to that 50cm gives you 25% more mast, which is quite a bit more than the 13/72cm calc.
Totally know what you mean on the 1250 not liking the drag from the mast... so can imagine it getting more pronounced on a taller mast.
Longer mast have some big drawbacks IMHO:
-Launching and coming back in is a big PITA. I am 176cm tall and i have to wade in or dismount almost in neck deep water...it is the mast,the water rise/fall,the span of a big foil if you lean a bit and rocks or sandbars poking up.If you are taller then it is a different story.
-Surfability&Playfulness: i am 75kg and the 85cm mast feels boooring compared to the 72cm.Probably heavier guys can ride it with more authority.
-Drag: drag increases a lot if you ride the foil deeper.
I saw this Armstrong vid which expained that is not only the bit of added mast lenght....your foil is pushing water out of its way as you scoot along.If the foil is deeper it has to push a bigger water columm on top.
Do not know if this is scientifically correct but the increase in drag is very noticeable.
Personally i do not like it that much right now,but i still have not gotten into big downwind conditions.
I have 45, 72 and 100. The 100 is amazing in choppy conditions and you basically never over foil. It is a beast and takes some getting used to. Also you can load up for jumping really well on the 100. I'd only use the 100 for the wing but launching is definitely harder as you need to get deeper into the water so when I'm lazy usually in the winter when it's cold I'll ride the 72 as I can launch shallower. In my opinion I'd take the 100 over the 85.
85 is good IMO for our local conditions and down winding, surfing ocean swell.
a shorter wing board will be less likely to breach and control the ride height as well. I rode my 6'4 aviator with straps winging and found I often came down from a breach and recovered, without straps you are straight over the front.
Learned to wing on the 72 and breached a lot as well. First session on the 85 I think I breached once. Very much worth it. That 1550 in the waves over chest high was difficult for me to keep in the wave (only 63 kgs). Haven't had my 1250 or 850 out in bigger waves yet winging.
After using many lengths I have found 85cm to be the goldilocks length.. Not too long-not too short.
Although longer might seem better it's not all good.. You haven't really lived till you've breached at really high speed with a very long mast.. 
any idea if the 85cm Armstrong mast is as stiff as a Moses 85 carbon or Axis carbon?
tx
Select to expand quoteFrankieboy said..
any idea if the 85cm Armstrong mast is as stiff as a Moses 85 carbon or Axis carbon?
tx
Why do you want a really stiff mast? Armstrong have flex built into the fuse end of the mast to help handling especially in waves. Like surfboard fins. The base end is very stiff. Armie explains it in his videos.
I seen the vid and the explanation and although it sounds good I wonder if it is that clever.
My doubt is that a mast that has enough flex for a 65kg guy can be too soft for a 100kg, so either way at one point of the scale somebody has a too stiff or a too soft mast for there weight.
With surfboard fins we fix this with stiffer and softer fins, but this isnt (yet) common with foil masts.
Select to expand quoteJeroensurf said..
I seen the vid and the explanation and although it sounds good I wonder if it is that clever.
My doubt is that a mast that has enough flex for a 65kg guy can be too soft for a 100kg, so either way at one point of the scale somebody has a too stiff or a too soft mast for there weight.
With surfboard fins we fix this with stiffer and softer fins, but this isnt (yet) common with foil masts.
So it is better to make them super stiff with no flex?
85 ish is the perfect length for winging unless your location has real depth limitations. You will never go back to the 72....sell it.
Select to expand quoteemmafoils said..
85 ish is the perfect length for winging unless your location has real depth limitations. You will never go back to the 72....sell it.
Agree with that. Perfect for sup foil as well especially chunky waves.
Select to expand quotehilly said..Jeroensurf said..
I seen the vid and the explanation and although it sounds good I wonder if it is that clever.
My doubt is that a mast that has enough flex for a 65kg guy can be too soft for a 100kg, so either way at one point of the scale somebody has a too stiff or a too soft mast for there weight.
With surfboard fins we fix this with stiffer and softer fins, but this isnt (yet) common with foil masts.
So it is better to make them super stiff with no flex?
I have a Go foil M200/IWA with the 29.5mast and i,m looking for a new faster foil quiver so i,m in the market for a quiver, but also try to filter the bull**** from whats actually makes sense as it isnt exactly pennies what you have to spend on a proper foil quiver and most of the stuff isnt to test where I live.
btw my background is that I did a lot of R&D (as a hobby besides my job) for a couple of windsurf companies for over a decade. So yes, i,m critical, maybe more as most people.
The Armstrong gear looks awesome and a lot of what Armstrong is saying makes a lot of sense, but just not everything imo (especially this part).
When it is free from flex it works regardless the weight for every rider from every weight the same and as designed. If it is better I don,t know. When staying with the current gear they could also give a weight recommendation with what rider weight the mast works best, and from what weight it might be too stiff or too soft.Or if flex is really so important, build different stiffness masts, so you can pick the one that suit your weight.
With windsurfing, and especially formula where everybody sails with 1m wide boards, too big sails and 70cm fins its really normall that you pick a fin stiffness based on your weight because of the flex. With wavesailing a set up that is flexy for a 65kg guy is too soft and bends with too little pressure under my 95kg. The same can happen with foil masts. If flex is important it is impossible to set it up the same with 1 mast for everybody due the variations in weight.
imo that is something Axxis does really well with there 17 and 19 masts in offering different stifnesses (although carbon offers more options to disconnect stiffness from form).
91cm Moses mast was too soft for big surf wings, then the 82 came
I agree flex makes a foil smoother but it needs some rigidity for my 100kg and a big wing
I am OK with the Moses 82 and wonder if Armstrong 86 is as stiff (or as flexible), I wonder the same about the Axis
Considering moving from Moses 1100/790 to Armstrong 1850/1250 or AXIS 1150/910 (or 1050/930)...
Anyway a brand doesn't see any added value for something they do not propose, untill they finally relese it :-)
Select to expand quoteJeroensurf said..hilly said..Jeroensurf said..
I seen the vid and the explanation and although it sounds good I wonder if it is that clever.
My doubt is that a mast that has enough flex for a 65kg guy can be too soft for a 100kg, so either way at one point of the scale somebody has a too stiff or a too soft mast for there weight.
With surfboard fins we fix this with stiffer and softer fins, but this isnt (yet) common with foil masts.
So it is better to make them super stiff with no flex?
I have a Go foil M200/IWA with the 29.5mast and i,m looking for a new faster foil quiver so i,m in the market for a quiver, but also try to filter the bull**** from whats actually makes sense as it isnt exactly pennies what you have to spend on a proper foil quiver and most of the stuff isnt to test where I live.
btw my background is that I did a lot of R&D (as a hobby besides my job) for a couple of windsurf companies for over a decade. So yes, i,m critical, maybe more as most people.
The Armstrong gear looks awesome and a lot of what Armstrong is saying makes a lot of sense, but just not everything imo (especially this part).
When it is free from flex it works regardless the weight for every rider from every weight the same and as designed. If it is better I don,t know. When staying with the current gear they could also give a weight recommendation with what rider weight the mast works best, and from what weight it might be too stiff or too soft.Or if flex is really so important, build different stiffness masts, so you can pick the one that suit your weight.
With windsurfing, and especially formula where everybody sails with 1m wide boards, too big sails and 70cm fins its really normall that you pick a fin stiffness based on your weight because of the flex. With wavesailing a set up that is flexy for a 65kg guy is too soft and bends with too little pressure under my 95kg. The same can happen with foil masts. If flex is important it is impossible to set it up the same with 1 mast for everybody due the variations in weight.
imo that is something Axxis does really well with there 17 and 19 masts in offering different stifnesses (although carbon offers more options to disconnect stiffness from form).
You already have a 29.5", which is super stiff. If you want a faster setup, why not demo the NL wings or GL for that matter. There are som very fast wings in that lot.
I,m really considering ordering a Gl210 or 180
The "problem" is that in the Netherlands/Europe, where I live you can,t demo them and they are here really expensive, like 25/30% more as in Australia.
So just order a wing and hope it works is a pretty big risk imo. an front and back wing from GF is here more expensive as a whole set from Naish or Starboard. Funny enough is even switching to Armstrong less expensive, but I read somewhere they don,t work that well with my Fanatic Skywing5.8 but I can demo those, so maybe give it a shot and or switch board to something well with them.
2th issue is that it is winter here, temps are between zub-zero and+ 10 on a warm day so it will take a while before the temps are warm enough to actually demo stuff and feel what happens below me.
3th problem, we are already for a month in lock down due Covid 19 so Shops are closed anyway so no demo from the brand that I could try, but normally an Naish, Fanatic or Starboard is available for demo, Armstrong as well.
Select to expand quotekiter64 said..
I got the 85cm mast after having been on the 72cm surfing and winging for 12 months or so and although I will still use the 72cm for surfing it is well worth the upgrade to 85cm for winging , it makes a huge difference to breaching when you are out in the ocean swells and on the first session couldnt believe that amount extra length made such a difference .
The one caveat to that is that to get the best out of the 1250 when riding swells is you need to trim it up pretty high as any extra in the water slows you down and if you are tired or feeling lazy at the end of the session you really notice the difference by leaving the foil deeper i nthe water .
Kiter64
When "trimming it up", do you mean a +1 shim for less lift? Maybe, moving mast further back for less lift in the waves?
Select to expand quoteCornbread said..When "trimming it up", do you mean a +1 shim for less lift? Maybe, moving mast further back for less lift in the waves?
He means have the foil close to the surface of the water, so get high up on your mast. Foils are more efficient closer to the surface plus there is more wave energy at the top of swells.
Select to expand quotefoilthegreats said..
I have 45, 72 and 100. The 100 is amazing in choppy conditions and you basically never over foil. It is a beast and takes some getting used to. Also you can load up for jumping really well on the 100. I'd only use the 100 for the wing but launching is definitely harder as you need to get deeper into the water so when I'm lazy usually in the winter when it's cold I'll ride the 72 as I can launch shallower. In my opinion I'd take the 100 over the 85.
Hi Foilthegreats, do you still use the 45 or that is too short? I'm debating a 55 or 65 as a shortest mast. Keep riping sbx while it's open!!! I used 75 and 85, I think I prefer the 75..not a big difference from my 75. I do not have any experience in Foil Surfing(I do surf...average surfer but liking it), but next season will definitely try to sqeeze some session in SBX, east coast, Florida, south Maui shallow reefs etc, if we can ever start traveling......also want to learn how to dock start and pump etc. Thansk in advance.
Select to expand quoteNordRoi said..foilthegreats said..
I have 45, 72 and 100. The 100 is amazing in choppy conditions and you basically never over foil. It is a beast and takes some getting used to. Also you can load up for jumping really well on the 100. I'd only use the 100 for the wing but launching is definitely harder as you need to get deeper into the water so when I'm lazy usually in the winter when it's cold I'll ride the 72 as I can launch shallower. In my opinion I'd take the 100 over the 85.
Hi Foilthegreats, do you still use the 45 or that is too short? I'm debating a 55 or 65 as a shortest mast. Keep riping sbx while it's open!!! I used 75 and 85, I think I prefer the 75..not a big difference from my 75. I do not have any experience in Foil Surfing(I do surf...average surfer but liking it), but next season will definitely try to sqeeze some session in SBX, east coast, Florida, south Maui shallow reefs etc, if we can ever start traveling......also want to learn how to dock start and pump etc. Thansk in advance.
I actually just purchased as I have areas I want to ride where it's extremely shallow but fun looking waves. Also when wanting to use a sinker board where it's not too deep. I think it will be a fun combo on a small prone board. Still haven't tried but be sure to post videos when I do. My first foil was a Naish with 55cm mast. Good size to learn foil surfing on but probably not worth purchasing unless you plan on riding shallow areas where it's needed. 60-70cm seems to be the standard size for foil surfing.
Select to expand quotebaldy123 said..
85 is good IMO for our local conditions and down winding, surfing ocean swell.
a shorter wing board will be less likely to breach and control the ride height as well. I rode my 6'4 aviator with straps winging and found I often came down from a breach and recovered, without straps you are straight over the front.
@baldy123 that is exactly the board I have, the 6'4 and it does feel a bit big (and no handle at the bottom has caused me some wing damage unable to control the foil and the wing walking into the surf).... definitely take your note on shorter board.Been seeing the guys ride straps more and more. been anti straps kiting, but after Margs crew riding some size swells at boat ramps with straps, I can see the altitude control shooting down a big face improves... mmmmmmm
I have only ever ridden the 85cm, so can't compare. I am super happy on the 85. I breached a lot in the beginning, but now much much less. So that must mean when we get better it becomes less of an issue.
Yes well worth it for me more options for sailing venues and better in a bigger sea and goes upwind better with more sideways grip also get another couple of parts and ya have a second foil to shre the stoke when a mate is thinking about getting into it
Select to expand quoteFrankieboy said..
91cm Moses mast was too soft for big surf wings, then the 82 came
I agree flex makes a foil smoother but it needs some rigidity for my 100kg and a big wing
I am OK with the Moses 82 and wonder if Armstrong 86 is as stiff (or as flexible), I wonder the same about the Axis
Considering moving from Moses 1100/790 to Armstrong 1850/1250 or AXIS 1150/910 (or 1050/930)...
Anyway a brand doesn't see any added value for something they do not propose, untill they finally relese it :-)
I'm a 112 kg and love the feel of the 85 with the big wings Armstrong 2400 and 1850
when I started windfoiling a few years ago I had a very stiff carbon mast then changed brands to the starboard carbon which is quite flexible and thought it was going to snap but it hasn't and once I got used to it the flex actually helps with control by giving feel But these days winging is where it's at for me I love the Armstrong feel
Already been said but if ya cranking Oceanside the 85 is the way to go. I am finding it a little more draggy though when pump proning than when I used a 75 axis mast. But I'm learning to stay much higher where all the power is.
that being said my son whose got that docking thing down pat, docked using the 1850 the other day (and he only weighs 48kg ish) and he was cranking ... the glide he got was unbelievable and the fact that he could keep that wing from breaching is testimont to how superb it is.
so it could just be my kookiness after all.
flex... you want it if built into the design at the right places.
