I jumped into the downwind long and narrow board wagon for light wind winging. just to dip my toes, I got the Gong Cruzader Hipe and I was very very unimpressed. Clunky , slow and sticking.
then a friend lent me his KT dragonfly. Oh boy. The thing is a rocket. I am 86kg, and went on a 7ft 100L, 19" wide board and I thought it would be a struggle. got up immediately, got on foil in a heartbeat and I was jibing and switching feet no problem.
it is a s good as you hear and see in YouTube.
I was almost there to pull the trigger on a Sunova Carver but after trying the long and narrow 7ft plus I realize if you really want to go sub 10kt and you are heavy you gotta go long. because I have everything else Armstrong I will get the dw 107L from then which is fairly similar to the KT Hope it helps others on the same boat.
Select to expand quoteSlowlyButSurely said..
it is a s good as you hear and see in YouTube.
And even better in Vimeo : )
Select to expand quoteTaavi said..SlowlyButSurely said..
it is a s good as you hear and see in YouTube.
And even better in Vimeo : )
BTW @SlowlyButSurely or anybody else, if you do decide to go with the KT, don't be afraid to go big in volume. I see a lot of arguably experienced riders pushing the crowd to smaller and smaller boards (volume wise), and that's not something that would apply to KT designs I think. It is quite safe to go bigger, the size of the boards compared to some other designs is so well hidden. This is purely based on my own experience while wave windsurfing with KT designs, or when winging. I am 72 kg. and for a light wind winging setup I wouldn't go smaller than the Dragonfly 6'9'' that is 95 litres. For windy and powered up riding it's likely different. And this is what makes it complicated - lots of riders seem to have windy conditions, or they are willing to go with big wings or foils, and then they are pushing these very small boards. Always pay attention to the conditions where people in the internet are using their facourite kit. A 631 cm2 front wing and a 155 cm2 stabiliser used in both of these clips.
Do you wish you had gone bigger than the 95l? I'm an inland lake foiler and at 75kg keep getting tempted by the same board but haven't yet pulled the trigger.
Select to expand quoteMrPieMan said..Taavi said..SlowlyButSurely said..
it is a s good as you hear and see in YouTube.
And even better in Vimeo : )
BTW @SlowlyButSurely or anybody else, if you do decide to go with the KT, don't be afraid to go big in volume. I see a lot of arguably experienced riders pushing the crowd to smaller and smaller boards (volume wise), and that's not something that would apply to KT designs I think. It is quite safe to go bigger, the size of the boards compared to some other designs is so well hidden. This is purely based on my own experience while wave windsurfing with KT designs, or when winging. I am 72 kg. and for a light wind winging setup I wouldn't go smaller than the Dragonfly 6'9'' that is 95 litres. For windy and powered up riding it's likely different. And this is what makes it complicated - lots of riders seem to have windy conditions, or they are willing to go with big wings or foils, and then they are pushing these very small boards. Always pay attention to the conditions where people in the internet are using their facourite kit. A 631 cm2 front wing and a 155 cm2 stabiliser used in both of these clips.
Do you wish you had gone bigger than the 95l? I'm an inland lake foiler and at 75kg keep getting tempted by the same board but haven't yet pulled the trigger.
Nope. I realise I am not good and strong enough to SUP paddle this board up on flat water. Not with the foils I have at least. For this to happen I would likely need to go bigger in size. Haven't tried it to SUP in the waves or with the wind though. But the multiple days I have tried on my lake have convinced me not to worry. Just for winging in the conditions where there are some gusts every now and then I don't feel the need to go bigger. I would rather wait or to slowly sneak into a part of the lake that gets some stronger gusts every now and then, and get going there. The same applies to our wave spot where close to the shore there is often next to no wind - slowly float out where the wind line is, get going there and stay foiling. If falling in close to the shore then repeat the process. This is something that would be truly annoying to do with a too small board.
I never tried the dragonfly but I have a DW board (Sunova Aviator DW 7'2"x18" 103L) and a mid-length narrow wing board (Sunova Carver 5'10"x20" 85L)
I've yet to try the Carver in real marginal condition (7-8kts) but I have many light wind sessions with the Aviator DW 18. I can pump it up my on the North SF1080 and HA1050 in 7-8kt with 6M wing. Lower than 7kt the tension in the wing is not enough to gain enough speed from pumping.
It may seem that you can do winging with the DW board in any conditions but the mid-length board is much more fun to ride than the long DW board. The Carver rides similar to my 4'9" x 24" 72L wing board when are on foil and less likely to submarine and touch the wave.
I think if you wing only, a narrow mid-length board may be better.
I'll second what Taeyeony says. My intro to winging on DW boards was on an 8' barracuda and it was a lot of fun and helped with a lot of progression. I'm 89kg and now I'm on a 85l 5'10" Carver as wall and have had it out in everything from 8-37 knots. It has a snappier feel and lower swing weight than my 5'3"x22" kalama and has me riding my fs700 foil with a 4.2m all the way down at 8 knot lulls.
So the big takeaway IMO is that winging narrow boards is no longer "hype" it's the future!
...while its pretty heavily dependent on context, use, and personal preferences, its good to hear these counter points to what seems like the dominant narrative of longer, narrower, and (to some extent, and particularly for SUP) more volume means easier, at least to get on foil, and that once up the downsides of the bigger boards are somewhat mitigated by foil position and slim outline
Will be fun to see what the (near) future holds...in the meantime, I think comparing the Dragonfly to the Apple Skipper DW would be helpful
Select to expand quoteTaeyeony said..
I never tried the dragonfly but I have a DW board (Sunova Aviator DW 7'2"x18" 103L) and a mid-length narrow wing board (Sunova Carver 5'10"x20" 85L)
I've yet to try the Carver in real marginal condition (7-8kts) but I have many light wind sessions with the Aviator DW 18. I can pump it up my on the North SF1080 and HA1050 in 7-8kt with 6M wing. Lower than 7kt the tension in the wing is not enough to gain enough speed from pumping.
It may seem that you can do winging with the DW board in any conditions but the mid-length board is much more fun to ride than the long DW board. The Carver rides similar to my 4'9" x 24" 72L wing board when are on foil and less likely to submarine and touch the wave.
I think if you wing only, a narrow mid-length board may be better.
Yeah I hear you and I thought so too. I have both the hybrid mid size (similar to the Sunova Carver) and the long and narrow Dragonfly. And if the goal is to go out in 8-9kt the Dragonfly is really that much better
I think the Carver is a better all-round for sure which u can keep also in high winds and have fun.
But the efficiency of long and narrow still cannot be beaten for the application in question. I hate to carry a 7ft board inside my car but its the only way I can have a session in sub 10kt and have a blast doing it
Select to expand quoteSlowlyButSurely said..
I jumped into the downwind long and narrow board wagon for light wind winging. just to dip my toes, I got the Gong Cruzader Hipe and I was very very unimpressed. Clunky , slow and sticking.
then a friend lent me his KT dragonfly. Oh boy. The thing is a rocket. I am 86kg, and went on a 7ft 100L, 19" wide board and I thought it would be a struggle. got up immediately, got on foil in a heartbeat and I was jibing and switching feet no problem.
it is a s good as you hear and see in YouTube.
I was almost there to pull the trigger on a Sunova Carver but after trying the long and narrow 7ft plus I realize if you really want to go sub 10kt and you are heavy you gotta go long. because I have everything else Armstrong I will get the dw 107L from then which is fairly similar to the KT Hope it helps others on the same boat.
I appreciate the feedback on the Hipe. Could you say what size Cruzader Hipe inflatable board you were using? I haven't had a chance to compare mine to any other hard DW boards. It seems without the noise rocker an streamline noise shape they need to be a good bit longer to get similar performance.
The dragonfly looks like it could be the most streamline DW board out there.
Select to expand quoteFishdude said..SlowlyButSurely said..
I jumped into the downwind long and narrow board wagon for light wind winging. just to dip my toes, I got the Gong Cruzader Hipe and I was very very unimpressed. Clunky , slow and sticking.
then a friend lent me his KT dragonfly. Oh boy. The thing is a rocket. I am 86kg, and went on a 7ft 100L, 19" wide board and I thought it would be a struggle. got up immediately, got on foil in a heartbeat and I was jibing and switching feet no problem.
it is a s good as you hear and see in YouTube.
I was almost there to pull the trigger on a Sunova Carver but after trying the long and narrow 7ft plus I realize if you really want to go sub 10kt and you are heavy you gotta go long. because I have everything else Armstrong I will get the dw 107L from then which is fairly similar to the KT Hope it helps others on the same boat.
I appreciate the feedback on the Hipe. Could you say what size Cruzader Hipe inflatable board you were using? I haven't had a chance to compare mine to any other hard DW boards. It seems without the noise rocker an streamline noise shape they need to be a good bit longer to get similar performance.
The dragonfly looks like it could be the most streamline DW board out there.
7'11 strapless. Definitely not a board for the sub 10kt. I find it sticky, slow and very unresponsive compared to the KT.
I will definitely sell that without too much remorse.
I was fooled by the Gong marketing. When u see the guy going, first I question if what they call light wind is really that light. Second, ion their defense, they use gigantic HA fronts. I use a HA1080 / MA1225 armie which wont have the early lift of a Sirius or Leviathan foil.
The combo 7'4 105L Dragonfly, Armstrong HA1080 is a dream for light wind winging.
I am 90kg wet, wind was 7-9kt and I rode comfortably with a 6.1m XPS (without battens and inflated at 6.5PSI).
This is not marketing gimmick as most of the wing foil manufactures claims are. There boards are the real deal for light wind winging.
I first tried the Gong Cruzader Hipe which was pure garbage and I questioned whether the downwind board hype was just a fad.
KT dragonfly works because it is long, narrow and, very important, has a dislocating hull which really helps tracking and cutting water away during take off.
Inflatable downwind boards miss the last element and despite being long, they are not narrow enough and with a flat planing surface they are very inefficient at building and keeping speed.
Select to expand quoteSlowlyButSurely said..
KT dragonfly works because it is long, narrow and, very important, has a dislocating hull which really helps tracking and cutting water away during take off.
Your "dislocating hull" sounds better than the more common displacement hull 
Select to expand quoteSlowlyButSurely said..
The combo 7'4 105L Dragonfly, Armstrong HA1080 is a dream for light wind winging.
I am 90kg wet, wind was 7-9kt and I rode comfortably with a 6.1m XPS (without battens and inflated at 6.5PSI).
This is not marketing gimmick as most of the wing foil manufactures claims are. There boards are the real deal for light wind winging.
I first tried the Gong Cruzader Hipe which was pure garbage and I questioned whether the downwind board hype was just a fad.
Yeah with respect to your kind self I gotta call bul**** on that. You must be a pretty phenomenal foiler to get up with a 6.1 XPS in 7-9knots. I had one & it was terrible for anything under 12knots- wouldn't even carry enough wind to loft itself. Once the wind got up it was awesome though. Not sure what the HA1080 looks like but must be pretty amazing along with your skills to get up on foil. I've got a DW board & yes it's good for moving forward straightaway however with side chop & light winds it's still a bastard to get on foil. I love DW boards but I think there must be a balance of reviews & experiences to dispel the myth they are a magic bullet for crap conditions. For those with experience & great technique (I'm presumably putting you in this category) they would stretch the range of conditions however for those of us with average technique & skills they are an aid but won't guarantee happy foiling in crappy conditions.
Don't go calling bull and then not giving enough information. At the very least, you could tell us what foil you were using, and what your weight is. It would also be quite useful to know how you determine "12 knots" - using a windmeter (e.g. iWindsurf), measure on shore, or just guess. The difference between meters that are 5-10 m up in the air, and measurements on the beach, can easily be 2 or 3 knots. That's if you are on a flat beach with a very good fetch and onshore or side-on wind. In offshore direction, both measurements on the beach and estimates are often much further off.
I don't know the XPS, but I cannot imagine any 6 m wing not flying in 10 knots wind (measured on the beach). Besides that, good wingers are often able to foil even when the wind is not strong enough to lift a large wing. I've had plenty of sessions where my arms got sore trying to hold up my 6.5 unit, while my wife was foiling 100% of the time with a 4.2. It's all about apparent wind, and good technique and fitness to get started.
From first sessions on the HA880, is seems that it has at least as much lift as older 1250 foils, and perhaps more, with a lot more glide (efficiency, better lift-to-drag ratio). All reports of other sizes on the new HA wings say similar things. To get the most out of a downwind board, you need an efficient foil, too - otherwise the board wants to go but foil drag slows you down. Of course, that's best paired with good pumping skills and technique.
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..
I don't know the XPS, but I cannot imagine any 6 m wing not flying in 10 knots wind (measured on the beach). Besides that, good wingers are often able to foil even when the wind is not strong enough to lift a large wing. I've had plenty of sessions where my arms got sore trying to hold up my 6.5 unit, while my wife was foiling 100% of the time with a 4.2. It's all about apparent wind, and good technique and fitness to get started.
The XPS is very tight - like a tiger- The difference between it & my PPC 5.8 is the PPC fills out & catches the wind. The baggier it gets the better it seems to perform- the XPS has a tight canopy & never was intentioned as a light wind wing (Armie when questioned about the XPS bottom range just kinda shrugged his shoulders in the interview with real windsports (?) staff demo on youtube ). While I was standing around with not enough wind in my XPS to hold it up others around me (admittedly all much better than me) with baggier wings were getting started winging.
As far as wind reading yeah maybe the local harbour readings are not accurate but light wind is light wind around here if its a marginal call to bother going out with a 5m wing or sit back on the couch.
I will apologise on the bullst call. It wasn't meant as a personal attack more of a frustration I feel about never having the positive light winging sessions that I read about constantly despite owning all the appropriate equipment. I have come to understand that despite the range of equipment you can own nothing trumps technique & experience - thats what I was trying to get at.
Select to expand quoteArthurAlston said..SlowlyButSurely said..
KT dragonfly works because it is long, narrow and, very important, has a dislocating hull which really helps tracking and cutting water away during take off.
Your "dislocating hull" sounds better than the more common displacement hull
oops you totally right, sorry!
Select to expand quoteMicrosurfer said..SlowlyButSurely said..
The combo 7'4 105L Dragonfly, Armstrong HA1080 is a dream for light wind winging.
I am 90kg wet, wind was 7-9kt and I rode comfortably with a 6.1m XPS (without battens and inflated at 6.5PSI).
This is not marketing gimmick as most of the wing foil manufactures claims are. There boards are the real deal for light wind winging.
I first tried the Gong Cruzader Hipe which was pure garbage and I questioned whether the downwind board hype was just a fad.
Yeah with respect to your kind self I gotta call bul**** on that. You must be a pretty phenomenal foiler to get up with a 6.1 XPS in 7-9knots. I had one & it was terrible for anything under 12knots- wouldn't even carry enough wind to loft itself. Once the wind got up it was awesome though. Not sure what the HA1080 looks like but must be pretty amazing along with your skills to get up on foil. I've got a DW board & yes it's good for moving forward straightaway however with side chop & light winds it's still a bastard to get on foil. I love DW boards but I think there must be a balance of reviews & experiences to dispel the myth they are a magic bullet for crap conditions. For those with experience & great technique (I'm presumably putting you in this category) they would stretch the range of conditions however for those of us with average technique & skills they are an aid but won't guarantee happy foiling in crappy conditions.
No worries I get it and accept it. and trust me, I was like you, I got tired myself of hearing everybody claiming these are light wind miracle boards while I couldn't make them do their job myself.
The Gong Crusader was a total disappointment for me and I felt that either I get a 1500HA foil and a larger wing or I would not be able.
Then, the Dragonfly came and I saw a massive difference. I pay for my gear, I have no affiliation whatsoever to any shop or brand. What I write is the experience of an average rider who likes to test different gear and find his perfect combo.
The XPS low end can really be improved quite a lot by removing the battens and inflating it 0.5-1PSI below recommended.
Also, thanks to this forum , I realized the XPS is very sensitive to oversheeting while pumping. Hence, while pumping, I always pay attention to let it breath by not letting the back hand pulling too much. And it kinda work. I used to ride the Ozone Flux 6.5 as my biggest wing, and to be perfectly honest I dont see that big of a difference between the two wings' low end.
I am not an expert at all. I am an intermediate rider, clumsy I'd say, average. Yesterday at my local spot we had 7-8kt breeze, for sure never above 10kt gust, and I got up.
The new HA1080 foil from Armie have really tons of initial lift. Way more than the MA1225 I used to ride. Thus I partially explain the ease of take off based on those foils too.
I tried the 7'0 and 8'0 dragonfly winging and also the SAB Torpedo with the same foil (GoFoil 1150 and 90 mast) Both the KT boards were lighter than the Torpedo and less sticky. And I'm talking about touchdown stickyness. The KT popped back and there was some grab to the shorter and flater Torpedo. I was supposed to try the AFS Blackbird as well but it was in the shop. I tried it with another guy who is sponsered by Cabrinha and both of us were amazed at the DragonFly. He want's his right away and is getting this years model and I've put in an order for the 2024 model (they are coming out with three different models Pro Carbon, Crossing Pro Carbon and Surf Carbon) that should be available in May. I've ordered the Pro Carbon. Also it looks like the new 2024 Kalama Barracuda is copying the Dragonfly tail design.
Select to expand quoteSquintEastwood said..
I tried the 7'0 and 8'0 dragonfly winging and also the SAB Torpedo with the same foil (GoFoil 1150 and 90 mast) Both the KT boards were lighter than the Torpedo and less sticky. And I'm talking about touchdown stickyness. The KT popped back and there was some grab to the shorter and flater Torpedo. I was supposed to try the AFS Blackbird as well but it was in the shop. I tried it with another guy who is sponsered by Cabrinha and both of us were amazed at the DragonFly. He want's his right away and is getting this years model and I've put in an order for the 2024 model (they are coming out with three different models Pro Carbon, Crossing Pro Carbon and Surf Carbon) that should be available in May. I've ordered the Pro Carbon. Also it looks like the new 2024 Kalama Barracuda is copying the Dragonfly tail design.
do you have a link or pic of the 2024 KT DFs ?
thx !!
Select to expand quoteFoxi said..SquintEastwood said..
I tried the 7'0 and 8'0 dragonfly winging and also the SAB Torpedo with the same foil (GoFoil 1150 and 90 mast) Both the KT boards were lighter than the Torpedo and less sticky. And I'm talking about touchdown stickyness. The KT popped back and there was some grab to the shorter and flater Torpedo. I was supposed to try the AFS Blackbird as well but it was in the shop. I tried it with another guy who is sponsered by Cabrinha and both of us were amazed at the DragonFly. He want's his right away and is getting this years model and I've put in an order for the 2024 model (they are coming out with three different models Pro Carbon, Crossing Pro Carbon and Surf Carbon) that should be available in May. I've ordered the Pro Carbon. Also it looks like the new 2024 Kalama Barracuda is copying the Dragonfly tail design.
do you have a link or pic of the 2024 KT DFs ?
thx !!
No, unfortunately I don't. From what I can tell the models differ in placement of volume. The one I ordered covers the most disciplines sacrificing excelling in any particular one. I mainly plan to wing in our summer Florida winds followed by downwinders and using it to hand paddle in small swell.
