So after seeing some of the racing on the wings the question is will wing racing learn from previous sports or will it just follow and make all the same mistakes?
What makes wing foiling fun for you? is it been able to do things you can't do in the other sports like windsurfing? is it the joy of been able to turn downwind and ride the ocean bumps how they were meant to be ridden?
So the question is how do you stop wing racing just turning into windsurfing? We all know how this ended up!!
I would think the reason everyone is doing this sport is the fun they have so turning it into a race to the most elite gear or who has the most money just does not sound that fun and something that has never worked well in any other sport so how can this be avoided? Can it be avoided? is it already set that it will follow the world all these sports take?
I am sure some people will not care as they just do it for fun but if the KOTC is a glimpse of where it is headed then lots of people will be interested to how the future path could be marked out.
For me I would hate it to just turn in to windsurfing where you just put a small wing on and fly downwind running over the bumps at mach 10 missing all the fun parts of why many people are wanting to get into the sport in the first place. Really I don't even know if there is a way to not make it go this way but maybe some out there have some concepts that could keep this wing sport true to why most are getting into it.
I could be wrong here and most might quite like to just follow but i hope not!!
We all hate rules but we all know some rules will have to come in so what should they be? Would hate to make some mistakes like SUP did in the early days by bringing in something like the 12'6 board class which killed the sport for most people over 80kg so would it not be smarter to think long and hard before it gets to the stage of making the rules to make sure when they are needed the right ones are chosen from the start.
From what I see there will be two main forms of racing with Course racing and ocean racing which will have downwind portions(like KOTC)
Course racing is always going to look like a windsurfing/ sailing sport so can this even really be tweaked? maybe this side is what it is or can something like a downwind pump leg change things up which would also make it so wing sizes stay at a half decent size as pumping a tiny windsurf type wing over a distance while holding a wing could be pretty hard. (just one outside idea)!
Ocean racing is where I really see the bigger differences as just flying over bumps under the wing power just seems like such a waste of ocean fun and not really that skilful a thing to do. Would love to hear ideas if anyone has any? Maybe I am just over thinking things and wing racing might not even become a sport!!
How do you have divisions? By weight? age? is gender a big deal? is there a reason a male should be faster than a female in this sport, time might tell more on this)
I still prefer to just paddle downwind but do see the fun side here and would love to see it steered in the right direction from the start but really you and the sport will be the ones who decide!!
If you are not into racing as many are not then I guess this is not a topic for you.
Good thread. I have a lot to say about this. don't have time, but maybe a good chat Jacko 
JB
Good thread. I have a lot to say about this. don't have time, but maybe a good chat Jacko
JB
When you add race to the sport it becomes fastest from A to B. Pretty hard to get around that. If it is an event like the Mambo/Merimbula then you have flexibility to add different criteria.
Note sure of you noticed but they had some sort of an "official" GWA (Global Wingsports Association) Wing competition couple weeks ago in Brazil (Super Foil Brazil 2020) where they pretty much mixed everything up, wave riding, free style and race:
My take is that people will always want to compete - it's in our nature and it helps push performances, equipment and interest in a sport forward.
For Winging I really only see Freestyle (either in waves or flatwater) + course racing. Downwind racing is retarded because the winner will be the one not surfing downwind unless you have "LE-front-handle rule only" - but how would you police that?
Freestyle will be the most accessible equipment wise, racing will always be an arms race unless you introduce some box- or one-design rules which always end up stifling development.
I like the idea of a "pump-leg" for racing - would be tough for all but the top %'ers in the sport but would still be cool to watch and (attempt) to do.
We watched a top wind-foil racer join our weekend races and he was easily doing 30knts and smoking all the windsurfers - our guys on wing-foils were maybe doing 15knots, if we can approach 30knots it will be spectacular to watch.
I suspect that course racing on wings would naturally fit into a direct upwind downwind format well, and because wings are slower than foilboards the downwind legs would be heavily influenced by your ability to ride waves and pump both the wing and the foil. My guess is that wing foilers will be a lot more comfortable going very deep on downwind legs than either kites or windfoilers and this will make the racing somewhat more interesting.
Wing boards also have a lot of the advantages of both windfoilers (ability to stop or slog in displacement mode, compact rig with no kite lines) and kitefoilers (ability to tack on foil, making racing more tactical and putting a premium on board handling), without many of the disadvantages (size of windfoil board and rig, unwieldiness of kites).
What I don't have a feel for is how wing foiling performance scales with body size - do lightweights have an advantage on an upwind downwind course over heavyweights in average breezes, or will the heavyweights prevail, if each group is able to select their board, foil and wing size to suit them? What about light weather, will the lighter sailors dominate or is their advantage offset by bigger sailors using more sail area? And if performance scales well over different weight groups given free choice of equipment, does that mean that one-design classes won't be feasible other than for specific weight divisions?
Select to expand quotePacey said..
I suspect that course racing on wings would naturally fit into a direct upwind downwind format well, and because wings are slower than foilboards the downwind legs would be heavily influenced by your ability to ride waves and pump both the wing and the foil. My guess is that wing foilers will be a lot more comfortable going very deep on downwind legs than either kites or windfoilers and this will make the racing somewhat more interesting.
Wing boards also have a lot of the advantages of both windfoilers (ability to stop or slog in displacement mode, compact rig with no kite lines) and kitefoilers (ability to tack on foil, making racing more tactical and putting a premium on board handling), without many of the disadvantages (size of windfoil board and rig, unwieldiness of kites).
What I don't have a feel for is how wing foiling performance scales with body size - do lightweights have an advantage on an upwind downwind course over heavyweights in average breezes, or will the heavyweights prevail, if each group is able to select their board, foil and wing size to suit them? What about light weather, will the lighter sailors dominate or is their advantage offset by bigger sailors using more sail area? And if performance scales well over different weight groups given free choice of equipment, does that mean that one-design classes won't be feasible other than for specific weight divisions?
Unfortunately I think smallest rideable foil will win - that means light riders will have an advantage in all but the strongest of winds.
Select to expand quotePeterP said..Pacey said..
I suspect that course racing on wings would naturally fit into a direct upwind downwind format well, and because wings are slower than foilboards the downwind legs would be heavily influenced by your ability to ride waves and pump both the wing and the foil. My guess is that wing foilers will be a lot more comfortable going very deep on downwind legs than either kites or windfoilers and this will make the racing somewhat more interesting.
Wing boards also have a lot of the advantages of both windfoilers (ability to stop or slog in displacement mode, compact rig with no kite lines) and kitefoilers (ability to tack on foil, making racing more tactical and putting a premium on board handling), without many of the disadvantages (size of windfoil board and rig, unwieldiness of kites).
What I don't have a feel for is how wing foiling performance scales with body size - do lightweights have an advantage on an upwind downwind course over heavyweights in average breezes, or will the heavyweights prevail, if each group is able to select their board, foil and wing size to suit them? What about light weather, will the lighter sailors dominate or is their advantage offset by bigger sailors using more sail area? And if performance scales well over different weight groups given free choice of equipment, does that mean that one-design classes won't be feasible other than for specific weight divisions?
Unfortunately I think smallest rideable foil will win - that means light riders will have an advantage in all but the strongest of winds.
I can see that would be true downwind, as the energy you can extract from any waves is relatively larger for smaller sailors. But would it also apply upwind as well? Lots of racing dinghies favour lighter crew weight downwind and larger crew size and weight upwind and I don't see anything specific to winging that would change that.
Foiling doesn't necessarily bias things towards lightweights - in the foiling moths Tom Slingsby won the 2019 world championships at 187 cm and 85kg, so he is no flyweight. And the last couple of generations of Americas Cup yachts show that bigger scales translates into higher speeds on foils, they max out at about 50 knots, well above what a foiling moth or windfoiler can do.
So what is it about winging that would make a lightweight as fast or faster than a larger sailor upwind?
Select to expand quotePacey said..PeterP said..Pacey said..
I suspect that course racing on wings would naturally fit into a direct upwind downwind format well, and because wings are slower than foilboards the downwind legs would be heavily influenced by your ability to ride waves and pump both the wing and the foil. My guess is that wing foilers will be a lot more comfortable going very deep on downwind legs than either kites or windfoilers and this will make the racing somewhat more interesting.
Wing boards also have a lot of the advantages of both windfoilers (ability to stop or slog in displacement mode, compact rig with no kite lines) and kitefoilers (ability to tack on foil, making racing more tactical and putting a premium on board handling), without many of the disadvantages (size of windfoil board and rig, unwieldiness of kites).
What I don't have a feel for is how wing foiling performance scales with body size - do lightweights have an advantage on an upwind downwind course over heavyweights in average breezes, or will the heavyweights prevail, if each group is able to select their board, foil and wing size to suit them? What about light weather, will the lighter sailors dominate or is their advantage offset by bigger sailors using more sail area? And if performance scales well over different weight groups given free choice of equipment, does that mean that one-design classes won't be feasible other than for specific weight divisions?
Unfortunately I think smallest rideable foil will win - that means light riders will have an advantage in all but the strongest of winds.
I can see that would be true downwind, as the energy you can extract from any waves is relatively larger for smaller sailors. But would it also apply upwind as well? Lots of racing dinghies favour lighter crew weight downwind and larger crew size and weight upwind and I don't see anything specific to winging that would change that.
Foiling doesn't necessarily bias things towards lightweights - in the foiling moths Tom Slingsby won the 2019 world championships at 187 cm and 85kg, so he is no flyweight. And the last couple of generations of Americas Cup yachts show that bigger scales translates into higher speeds on foils, they max out at about 50 knots, well above what a foiling moth or windfoiler can do.
So what is it about winging that would make a lightweight as fast or faster than a larger sailor upwind?
You may be right that as a wind-sport rider weight may not carry such a big penalty except in the ability to get up on foil and to keep it going in marginal conditions.
Downwind the energy you extract from waves is not an issue ,as to win a race, you will be sheeted in and in fact overtake any and all waves and therefore not using the wave energy.
Well World Sailing/ the GKA totally F$%%ed kiteboarding with their involvement. Just so obsessed to make it into a sport of the wealthy, the most expensive kit wins and then it goes out of date too... worth next to nothing resale wise.
The same clan from Austria are behind the GWA (Global Wingsurfing Association) so exactly the same thing will happen$.
It will all start out fun and games and slowly develop into a w#$k fest of look at how shinny my faster gold is that you cannot afford, driven by industry brands that incidentally are mostly the actual GWA. Which brings into the equation another problem - conflicts of interests against riders that do not ride the brands that run the GWA. It is all very weird.
Minimal material wise/price wise you couldn't get more performance out of anything else I reckon, just a question of how industry tries to reinvent things for profit.
Always interesting times when a new sport is developing. The one design debate, the limited rules debate (where you measure/weigh) kit...
Seeing that 13 yo Bobo kid, no adult stands a chance, but then again young riders may well be priced out of the sport as has happened previously -windsurfing - kiting - sup . Time will tell
Just my Opinions.
I suspected a while ago that wing downwind racing was going to be a horsepower thing. This was confirmed at last weekends kotc race where what looked like the biggest wing and the smallest foil won. Not to say the rider isn't skilled, cause he certainly is, but this isn't a game I want to play.
My idea of fun is using the wing to get onto the foil then depowering and just surfing the bumps from there and use the wing as little as possible. The ultimate aim is to get to paddle foiling downwind.
Now if you could get a race where for every second you used the wing a second was added to your time, that would be interesting.
I don't think I care which way it goes. There are still mal & mini mal riders & comps. Same as short boarder single fin comps. And performance thruster & quad riders, kneeboarders etc, etc.
I still see windsurfers, surf skiers and now SUP ers & foilers. And sure there are comps around doing that.
Us individuals will end up doing what we want. And if hungry enough will get into a comp that we think would suit. I know I'm a jack of most trades & master of none of them so will keep doing them to get the most of my fun & challenges in my watersports life.
So really it's whatever floats your boat.
Considering the wing foil is a long way from being the fastest foiling craft on the water. I would like to see a style of racing that takes advantage of the maneuverability and versatility of the wing.
Something like a wing cross format with some slalom, hurdles to jump over and runs through the surf. This is something that could have some good mainstream entertainment value.
racing didn't kill windsurfing
No need to fear racing. Room for everyone in this sport.
Quote from their site - for the Wingfoil you can frame different disciplines: Slalom, Wave, Freestyle, Downwind and Speed. The routes and methods of organizing the various events must be agreed with the Wing Foil Tour and comply with the standards required in its rules.
Racing killed wind surfing racing! Absolutely it did. Carrying around a trailer load of different size very expensive equipment buried it and it was all on then all off in about 12 months.
Everyone was so into it then it was like a year later and people were dropping off in droves....
