After several years of winging, and experience with many setups, its starting to dawn on me that speed/power range is one of the most (if not the most) important features in a winging-specific foil. I love the way that some of the surf-specific foils turn and roll, but I find that many of them are built for a fairly narrow band of power/speed input. This makes sense since when you are proning, you set up your equipment for the power of the conditions that are present, which aren't going to drastically change during a session. But when I'm winging, the speed range is much more broad, and I need a wing that will get me up (good low end) but also doesn't get pitchy or top out (good high end). It seems like most foils are currently marketed to appeal to both surf and prone markets, but I would guess this starts to diverge based on the performance observations that I am seeing.
What foils have you tried with the widest speed/power range? Ideally not compromising turning too much.
What design features do you think contribute to to a foil with a wider speed/power range?
What do you give up by having a foil with a wider speed/power range?
The foil that has most surprised me is the Armstrong MA1225 (I'm 90kg). Amazing low end, excellent turning ability for the size, great top end. It would be my "desert island" foil. It seemingly does not get bothered by high riding speeds, yet pumps well at lower speeds. I've just picked up an Omen 850 rig which has similar attributes, but I've not ridden it more than for a single demo yet. It was pretty amazing how quickly it released onto foil (the Omen board it was attached to obviously helped), but it similarly had a wide speed/power band but with a silky feel through the water and eagerness to turn. I think we are getting to a place where you don't have to make big compromises in a single foil and 2 foils can cover the work of what 3 or 4 previously did.
A foil that has amazed me (72 kg) the most lately is from the Sabfoil's Razor line - WR780. It's just 631 cm2, and is a joy to ride in pretty much every condition. I am riding it in the waves and on flat water, and also while giving beginner lessons - the stall and get-go speeds are both incredibly low, which is important for being able to follow beginners who are sometimes riding slow with their huge foils and wings. Yet it easily reaches 40 km/h on choppy water, even with a short mast. The turns are amazing, and it picks up the slightest of swell. A compromise of such a cambered profile is that it does not recover that easily after landing jumps. For freestyle purposes a foil with less camber would be better, but for plain freeride and waves that I am doing it's superb.
I have the fone seven seas 1400 and i have a huge range, i think aspect ratio around 7-8 is the formula for hyper polyvalent foil. I didnt tried the lastest from fone , in the future im planning the get the sk8 950.
~95kg rider here in stronger wind (3.0 to 5.0 wings). my last two desert island foils were the SAB W1000 and Fanatic Aero Free 1000. SAB had incredible range and glide with pretty good low end. The Fanatic 1000 has a lot more low end, turns better, easier to use, and also has pretty good top end but feels draggier. I like the way they Fanatic can pump through the turns better on small windswell. Good underpowered and good OP'd. Both are fun riding the container ship wakes we have here and comfortable surfing these at 15-18kt board speed and both foils are comfortable in the low 20kt board speed. SAB has more top end but I have been unable to tap it apparently. I max out on both around 24kt. Both foils can slow down pretty slow in transitions without worrying about dropout but not super slow like the super thick foils.
I didn't like either of these foils the first time I tried them. SAB felt too nervous. Fanatic too dull, but then you find out what they do well and maybe your riding changes to suit.
As the OP - the best range I've found is the Unifoil Hyper 2 190, which is a large foil that rides like a much smaller foil. While I find it to be very fast for its size, it can get slightly pitchy at its top end. You can shim some of it out, but I'd prefer something that ramps front foot pressure more vs getting pitchy. The Hyper2 170 is slightly faster, but the pitchiness at top speed is worse than the 190 and the bottom end also suffers.
The 1095 also had very good power range and was not pitchy, but it was slower. It had low stall speed but I could also ride it VERY overpowered and it just progressively ramped front foot pressure without getting pitchy. That said, power at the top end translated into foot pressure, not speed and it was definitely slower than the H2 190. I guess I could characterize it as having a wide power range without getting pitchy, but a narrower speed range.
I'm sure there is a unicorn out there with more top end... I wonder if its a large foil with good top end (like the H2 190) or if its a small foil with good low end.
Mikes Lab. You'll give up a lot of money.
In the size range of your 190;
On the V2 masts, really like the GF RS foils 1000 and 1150 for ease of use and steady flight. The RS 1075 is a bit turnier with a ton of high end range and similar feel to the Tak 1095 without the need for lots of tuning.
Select to expand quoteTaavi said..
A foil that has amazed me (72 kg) the most lately is from the Sabfoil's Razor line - WR780. It's just 631 cm2, and is a joy to ride in pretty much every condition. I am riding it in the waves and on flat water, and also while giving beginner lessons - the stall and get-go speeds are both incredibly low, which is important for being able to follow beginners who are sometimes riding slow with their huge foils and wings. Yet it easily reaches 40 km/h on choppy water, even with a short mast. The turns are amazing, and it picks up the slightest of swell. A compromise of such a cambered profile is that it does not recover that easily after landing jumps. For freestyle purposes a foil with less camber would be better, but for plain freeride and waves that I am doing it's superb.
I'm 82kg and the same applies to me for the wr780.
Select to expand quotesunsetsailboards said..
~95kg rider here in stronger wind (3.0 to 5.0 wings). my last two desert island foils were the SAB W1000 and Fanatic Aero Free 1000. SAB had incredible range and glide with pretty good low end. The Fanatic 1000 has a lot more low end, turns better, easier to use, and also has pretty good top end but feels draggier. I like the way they Fanatic can pump through the turns better on small windswell. Good underpowered and good OP'd. Both are fun riding the container ship wakes we have here and comfortable surfing these at 15-18kt board speed and both foils are comfortable in the low 20kt board speed. SAB has more top end but I have been unable to tap it apparently. I max out on both around 24kt. Both foils can slow down pretty slow in transitions without worrying about dropout but not super slow like the super thick foils.
I didn't like either of these foils the first time I tried them. SAB felt too nervous. Fanatic too dull, but then you find out what they do well and maybe your riding changes to suit.
I've never got the w1000 beyond 24 knots either. I've had the wing for nearly two years and I'm slowly getting more from it. It would be a great all round wing but on steeper waves I find it difficult to control and turn
Thinner foils with medium aspect and little camber seem to have the widest range to me.
Gong tend towards this direction.
If I could only own one foil it would be the Sabfoil w730.
An extraordinary range, I can get going on it when no one else can get foiling, but also use it in 2.5m conditions. It's so well balanced at a range of speeds, so great for going down steep wave faces.
My go to foil for good sized waves. I also own the wr780, which is great for rolling swell and small waves, but hasn't the low end of the w730, and also more difficult to use in bigger conditions.
GoFoil GT and RS range have huge range. GT1250 and Rs1075 are my favourites at 105kg.
Lift 150HA-X w/ the 26 carve tail + extender is working for me pretty much all conditions lately. 10+ aspect ratio wings are now as easy to ride as last years 7.5ar
Select to expand quoteVelocicraptor said..
What foils have you tried with the widest speed/power range? Ideally not compromising turning too much.
What design features do you think contribute to to a foil with a wider speed/power range?
What do you give up by having a foil with a wider speed/power range?
I do not rate the SAB W1000 as a broad speed foil. It's very low drag (low arm sail load) in it's sweet speed range (12 to 20 kts) then hits a drag hump at 21 kts. People can push through the hump and do 24 or 25 kts winging on it, but it takes a lot of drive force and concentration to do it. In light air you can cruise around on it doing 16 to 21 kts most of your session with minimal effort and when properly sanded the W1000 will recover from flat air-breaches quite easily. A lot of fun. Quick but not real quick. In strong winds you won't be going much faster. It wont pump well, and its very fine entry means it stalls very easy in foamy water.
The Naish 914 is more tolerant of rider error during light air lift off, and it builds drag progressively and doesn't feel like it hits a drag hump until around 25 kts. And can be forced to do 27.5 kts (for me) and I assume higher. Also a lot of fun. But different.
One way to get broad speed range via via going thin, very high aspect and small. The trade-off being roll stiffness.
Another way to achieve it is via the foil cross section/shape. For ease of use at low speeds the foil must have enough volume forward. For high top speed the foil section needs to be sharp enough at the very front, reasonably thin, plus needs a very progressive pressure distribution from leading to trailing edge, top and bottom surfaces. That means fair curves in foil cross section, which do not expect the water to change direction suddenly as it moves around the foil. The trade-off, is that the slightly fat foil entry means more foil drag at medium speeds.
Another option is to do both, medium-high aspect and a suitable foil section. This is what I think a "modern" fast and friendly foil is. With a matching rear stabiliser foil. Assuming also with a low drag and very stiff mast+fuselage.
I think the AR has a huge effect on speed range. I observed that on cab H1000 vs H800, and now on sk8 850 vs eagle 790. Higher aspect ratio usually looses a bit of low end and gains an amazing amount of top end. The tradeoff is the smoothness of turning and the resilience in choppy waters and white wash.
My current fav for speed/power range is the eagle, by far. But when it comes to surfing, especially choppy waves, there is no denying that the sk8 feels and performs better. It gives more control and is more resilient, the turning is smoother, tighter.
I would like to learn how fast riders are going on their Eagle or SK8 foils. Which size foil and speed average for 10+ secs. Rider weight is good to know too. I have seen some Eagle foil sections and they have substantial volume forward, so I'm wondering when they hit their drag wall. I'm guessing the SK8 foil cross section is based on the Eagle, but I don't know.
