Hello forum Seabreeze, first post here in Wingfoil, looking to pick your collective brains.
My current setup is a S25 Naish Hover 140 with a Starboard Oceanfoil 2000. This is a well documented problem in here, the Naish box is set waaay forward of where the Starboard COG is, so it means I have to stand well in front of the footstrap inserts, even with the foil as far back as it will go and the stab set on minimum lift. Now I am past beginner stage I am looking at some other options.
Bit of background... Started winging at Christmas, but kite/windsurf/SUP before that so not a total noob, I am about 6'3 110kg and no athlete so looking for something strong and friendly. I am already riding waves and flagging the wing, starting to make foiling gybes heelside and toeside. Riding in Wellington NZ so mostly in quite high wind and in waves, rarely flat water.
Here's the options I can think of, opinions on these much appreciated, or any others?
Option 1
Move to Axis, super strong mast, and there are heaps of cheap used sets and wings & parts out there for swapping and experimenting later. Anyone any idea if this will actually fix my balance problem though, otherwise it's a waste of time?
Option 2
Move to Armstrong as there are heaps of used wings out there and seems to be the best system about... problem is it means waiting potentially a long with my current gear while I save $$$.
Option 3
Someone is selling a Naish Thrust Surf XL foil and 75cm mast pretty cheap(ish), pretty sure this will suit the board better. The downside is there are not many Naish wings around used, so upgrades and swaps might be a pain later... and don't know how strong those masts are for a big guy in waves. And very few reviews telling me how it's gonna handle differently to the Starboard?
Option 4
Stay with Starboard and go with E series 1700 foil, means I can keep my super strong Starboard mast and existing foil. Downside is it's a very expensive wing upgrade, could buy a used Axis full setup for the same $, and will it make any difference? or is the balance point still gonna be the same but with less lift?
Thank you!
Wow.
I lost concentration at option 2 but I say give up foiling and write a book.
Select to expand quotewindrider323 said..
Wow.
I lost concentration at option 2 but I say give up foiling and write a book.
Well I like to be thorough y'know...
Cheers for the advice...
Move to armstrong.... spend that coin, get something you wont regret buying and buy anyway and end up spending more money in the big picture.
I tried the S25 125 and 110 and i don,t think the boxposition is the problem, but mainly the foilsize. The OC2000 is bij no means huge so i can imagine it just creates too much lift for the wind you are using it with. When you use it under powered it is probably a charm.
I tried the Etype1700 with the 110 and it is a very fast but bit nervous foil that turns very easy very tight but makes it difficult to drawn out a turn with. I would go for the system that you can upgrade the easiest.
Heeeey! I think that we've met! I have the Naish inflatable in Welli. It seems to me that one answer could be a website photo comparison of the foil-to-mast distance for the foils you're considering, compared with that of your current setup.
The Naish foil mount is very close to the mast and the Axis foil mount is most definitely not which is a problem requiring a drill solution. It's not obvious on the Armstrong site but with those the distance appears to be less than the Axis and more than the Naish.
The simplest solution is either the expensive one: buy a Naish foil setup or the expensive expensive one: change board and foil for ones that don't have compatibility issues.
Naish have a very reasonably priced carbon mast this year so it's only the fuselage that is alloy. Almost an Armstrong, eg full carbon but half the cost and no compatibility issues.
Thanks! Sounds like the E-type 1700 is not what I am looking for, so scrap option 4. Looks like Armstrong is probably the way... need to start saving! hopefully people start selling them now the A+ is out. Will keep my eye on the Naish carbon masts though.
Cheers!
You are a big guy like me and I'd recommend getting that cheap Naish foil set up and upgrading the front foil wing for a newer and bigger foil wing.. The 2000 or 2450 or even the HA1800 (Jet/S25/S26) and later on look at getting the new C35 composite mast from Naish.. It's only 35% carbon but just as good and much cheaper than the full carbon..
Select to expand quoteDavidJohn said..
and later on look at getting the new C35 composite mast from Naish.. It's only 35% carbon but just as good and much cheaper than the full carbon..
Mmmh, does it mean that the full carbon is junk or that the C35 weights a ton?
Select to expand quotejobic said..DavidJohn said..
and later on look at getting the new C35 composite mast from Naish.. It's only 35% carbon but just as good and much cheaper than the full carbon..
Mmmh, does it mean that the full carbon is junk or that the C35 weights a ton?
No.. It doesn't mean the full carbon mast is junk.. or that the C35 mast weighs a ton..
It means the full carbon is slightly lighter but at a much higher cost for a very similar performance..
Why not buy a Starboard surf or wing fuselage?
That would locate your current front foil BACK about 4".
Have someone put in some forward strap inserts. Easy for any shaper.
Or go to a smaller board that works with more foils which is maybe the right thing at this point anyway?
I did some looking when I had both in hand and I believe Gong wings will fit on a SB fuselage with a little adjustment, might even fit directly on the Quick Lock fuselage. They are quite a bit cheaper.
Maybe the best option.
STAY with what you got!
It works.
You are used to it.
Since you are heavier than what is considered "normal", you might have inadvertently hit on the right setup combination.
For sure, you cannot ride comfortably with a setup designed for a lightweight rider.
Select to expand quoteDavidJohn said..jobic said..DavidJohn said..
and later on look at getting the new C35 composite mast from Naish.. It's only 35% carbon but just as good and much cheaper than the full carbon..
Mmmh, does it mean that the full carbon is junk or that the C35 weights a ton?
No.. It doesn't mean the full carbon mast is junk.. or that the C35 mast weighs a ton..
It means the full carbon is slightly lighter but at a much higher cost for a very similar performance..
Well, I guess your expectations from a mast are just pretty low. There is just no way a 35% carbon (with I presume fibreglass) would offer similar performance than 100% carbon lay up unless they are both very average product or compromise somewhere else (thickness and therefore speed).
It is pretty basic composite knowledge so someone making such a statement is either heavily biased or hasn't compared with legit carbon products.
Yeh, 2 equally skilled wingfoilers, the one with more carbon in his mast will sail circles around the poor dude with less carbon.
Select to expand quoteDavidJohn said..jobic said..DavidJohn said..
and later on look at getting the new C35 composite mast from Naish.. It's only 35% carbon but just as good and much cheaper than the full carbon..
Mmmh, does it mean that the full carbon is junk or that the C35 weights a ton?
No.. It doesn't mean the full carbon mast is junk.. or that the C35 mast weighs a ton..
It means the full carbon is slightly lighter but at a much higher cost for a very similar performance..
I did a little video on this the other day for instagram TV. During this video I weighed and tried a linear stiffness test live (un rehearsed) to show the properties of the 3 masts on offer for S26 (2022 Season). In short (from memeory),
Weighing the 85cm masts (as I did not have all the 75cm models available) on large scales.
- S26 Alloy 85cm was approx. 1800grams.
- S26 C35 85cm was a tad under 2000grams.
- S26 C100 85cm was under 1800grams (maybe 1775-1780g-ish).
Then I placed them all on the ground horizontally and levelled them out with a shipping pallet under the fuse end and basically bounced on them taking my weight totally off the ground (I am 6'2" and 90kg).
- The Alloy as we know was impressively stiff, lineally stiffer than probably most carbon masts out there.
- The C35 was surprisingly stiff, way stiffer than I was expecting and definitely comparable to the Alloy. It did not go/flex down as much, but it had a different feel in the way it took the load. You really feel this awesome shock absorbing when you ride it to and it is still what I ride majority of the time for surfing.
- The C100 was clearly stiffer than the lot.
With this, obviously the Carbon 100 is the lightest and stiffest, but it is also the most expensive by quite a bit (as are all good carbon masts out there). But the Carbon 35 is only about $100 more expensive than the Alloy (depending on what size you go for). But the torsional control and flex is amazing. For a little weight gain, you get a ton of amazing feel for very little extra coin.
Here is the link to the IGTV is you can be bothered watching it - www.instagram.com/tv/CNtk14NBsG6/
Hop this helps with the masts.
Ride safe,
JB
Select to expand quoteWindgenuity said..DavidJohn said..jobic said..DavidJohn said..
and later on look at getting the new C35 composite mast from Naish.. It's only 35% carbon but just as good and much cheaper than the full carbon..
Mmmh, does it mean that the full carbon is junk or that the C35 weights a ton?
No.. It doesn't mean the full carbon mast is junk.. or that the C35 mast weighs a ton..
It means the full carbon is slightly lighter but at a much higher cost for a very similar performance..
I did a little video on this the other day for instagram TV. During this video I weighed and tried a linear stiffness test live (un rehearsed) to show the properties of the 3 masts on offer for S26 (2022 Season). In short (from memeory),
Weighing the 85cm masts (as I did not have all the 75cm models available) on large scales.
- S26 Alloy 85cm was approx. 1800grams.
- S26 C35 85cm was a tad under 2000grams.
- S26 C100 85cm was under 1800grams (maybe 1775-1780g-ish).
Then I placed them all on the ground horizontally and levelled them out with a shipping pallet under the fuse end and basically bounced on them taking my weight totally off the ground (I am 6'2" and 90kg).
- The Alloy as we know was impressively stiff, lineally stiffer than probably most carbon masts out there.
- The C35 was surprisingly stiff, way stiffer than I was expecting and definitely comparable to the Alloy. It did not go/flex down as much, but it had a different feel in the way it took the load. You really feel this awesome shock absorbing when you ride it to and it is still what I ride majority of the time for surfing.
- The C100 was clearly stiffer than the lot.
With this, obviously the Carbon 100 is the lightest and stiffest, but it is also the most expensive by quite a bit (as are all good carbon masts out there). But the Carbon 35 is only about $100 more expensive than the Alloy (depending on what size you go for). But the torsional control and flex is amazing. For a little weight gain, you get a ton of amazing feel for very little extra coin.
Here is the link to the IGTV is you can be bothered watching it - www.instagram.com/tv/CNtk14NBsG6/
Hop this helps with the masts.
Ride safe,
JB
Righto, went to check that video which shows JB putting his foot on a few masts to try to achieve some sort "flex test".... in one direction.The reason most people upgrade to carbon (the good ones) is that they understand that there is more to it than just linear rigidity. Most of them now have a tapered mast starting with a broader chord close to the plate. The C100 doesn't have that....
While I would certainly put my money on the C35 VS Alloy, I would not even consider the C100 as there is no way it can offer the same ride as Armstrong, SAB or the new Slingshot with a 120mm chord from plate to mast. It is certainly not a new thing as all the race foils (ML, Chubanga, Levitaz...) all have that tapered design.
The little information I could find on the C35 is that it uses 35% UD carbon which as its name suggest, achieve rigidity in ONE direction. SAB has a similar mast but chose not to offer it over 72cm length. They've scrapped their alloy mast altogether and now only offer that mast as an entry level set up. It has also a thicker profile which makes it slower than their full carbon counter parts but still more than enough for most of us.
Those hybrid mast sound pretty good to me as an alternative to aluminium with the benefit of being easy to repair but are certainly no match to a well designed full carbon mast.
Brands should definitely start to display informations such as Chord, Thickness, lay up and type of fibre that they used, especially when customers are forking out $800 to $1500 in a mast.
Rant over...
Thanks for the input everyone. I was leaning towards Armstrong... but after hearing what you all said I bought a used Naish S25 full kit, 1250 and 1650 front wings, and both rear wings, came up for sale for $1400 so thought it worth a punt.
I am probably on the heavy side for it so plan on getting one of the big wings to give me the full range, and I expect the 1250 will only be for absolutely nuking days... I live in Wellington so we do have plenty of them.
Will let you know how it goes when I have had a session or 2.
Select to expand quotejobic said..Windgenuity said..DavidJohn said..jobic said..DavidJohn said..
and later on look at getting the new C35 composite mast from Naish.. It's only 35% carbon but just as good and much cheaper than the full carbon..
Mmmh, does it mean that the full carbon is junk or that the C35 weights a ton?
No.. It doesn't mean the full carbon mast is junk.. or that the C35 mast weighs a ton..
It means the full carbon is slightly lighter but at a much higher cost for a very similar performance..
I did a little video on this the other day for instagram TV. During this video I weighed and tried a linear stiffness test live (un rehearsed) to show the properties of the 3 masts on offer for S26 (2022 Season). In short (from memeory),
Weighing the 85cm masts (as I did not have all the 75cm models available) on large scales.
- S26 Alloy 85cm was approx. 1800grams.
- S26 C35 85cm was a tad under 2000grams.
- S26 C100 85cm was under 1800grams (maybe 1775-1780g-ish).
Then I placed them all on the ground horizontally and levelled them out with a shipping pallet under the fuse end and basically bounced on them taking my weight totally off the ground (I am 6'2" and 90kg).
- The Alloy as we know was impressively stiff, lineally stiffer than probably most carbon masts out there.
- The C35 was surprisingly stiff, way stiffer than I was expecting and definitely comparable to the Alloy. It did not go/flex down as much, but it had a different feel in the way it took the load. You really feel this awesome shock absorbing when you ride it to and it is still what I ride majority of the time for surfing.
- The C100 was clearly stiffer than the lot.
With this, obviously the Carbon 100 is the lightest and stiffest, but it is also the most expensive by quite a bit (as are all good carbon masts out there). But the Carbon 35 is only about $100 more expensive than the Alloy (depending on what size you go for). But the torsional control and flex is amazing. For a little weight gain, you get a ton of amazing feel for very little extra coin.
Here is the link to the IGTV is you can be bothered watching it - www.instagram.com/tv/CNtk14NBsG6/
Hop this helps with the masts.
Ride safe,
JB
Righto, went to check that video which shows JB putting his foot on a few masts to try to achieve some sort "flex test".... in one direction.The reason most people upgrade to carbon (the good ones) is that they understand that there is more to it than just linear rigidity. Most of them now have a tapered mast starting with a broader chord close to the plate. The C100 doesn't have that....
While I would certainly put my money on the C35 VS Alloy, I would not even consider the C100 as there is no way it can offer the same ride as Armstrong, SAB or the new Slingshot with a 120mm chord from plate to mast. It is certainly not a new thing as all the race foils (ML, Chubanga, Levitaz...) all have that tapered design.
The little information I could find on the C35 is that it uses 35% UD carbon which as its name suggest, achieve rigidity in ONE direction. SAB has a similar mast but chose not to offer it over 72cm length. They've scrapped their alloy mast altogether and now only offer that mast as an entry level set up. It has also a thicker profile which makes it slower than their full carbon counter parts but still more than enough for most of us.
Those hybrid mast sound pretty good to me as an alternative to aluminium with the benefit of being easy to repair but are certainly no match to a well designed full carbon mast.
Brands should definitely start to display informations such as Chord, Thickness, lay up and type of fibre that they used, especially when customers are forking out $800 to $1500 in a mast.
Rant over...
I wouldn't consider that a rant. And great idea to spec a little more info. which I have listed below as best I can.
One thing that I guess does not come across it that non linear stiffness/response/feel. I know with a lot of carbon masts out there, they are noticeable softer than Naish' alloy. So yes going for bigger chords and thickness is needed to get them stiffer. Obviously carrying this all the way down to the fuse would be far too draggy, so tapering is a great option and offers up some cool flex. But, if you can get the stiffness staying narrow at the base, then this is always going to be far more efficient and faster!
Here's some stats,
S26 Alloy 75cm. Chord = 129.64mm, Thickness at 40mm (as deep as my digital vernier callipers can go) = 17.46mm. Weight 1600grams
Aircraft grade aluminium with 3 stringer and extruded fore and aft thread ends to fasten the plate and bottom cup along with glue. Price $649 (based on 75cm)
S26 C35/75cm. Chord = 116.85mm, Thickness at 40mm (same reason) = 16.71mm. Weight 1800grams
100% Pre preg technology for all layers, moulded high density foam core, The ends carry a full carbon lamination, UD carbon as well as biax glass in its lamination. The fuselage connection is bonded as well as screwed, the screws go into the full lamination part of the mast and are set in 2 M10 inserts, both the 100% and the 35% carbon mast have a high gloss finish. Price $749 (based on 75cm)
S26 C100/75cm. Chord = 116.85mm, Thickness at 40mm (same reason) = 16.71mm. Weight 1600grams
100% Pre preg technology for all layers, moulded high density foam core, The ends carry a full carbon lamination, 100% carbon utilizes a combo of UD carbon as well as 3K carbon. The fuselage connection is bonded as well as screwed, the screws go into the full lamination part of the mast and are set in 2 M10 inserts, both the 100% and the 35% carbon mast have a high gloss finish. Price $1449 (based on 75cm)
I hope this helps a lot in comparing apples with raisins.
Ride safe,
JB
Ok, so test run results after some test runs.
Armstrong HS1550 V1 Demo run. Still felt like the foil needed to beall theway back in the box to be balanced, so that supports the Naish forward box placement theory. But it rode amazingly, was faster than the Starboard (but not as much as I expected), felt super twitchy and responsive compared to the Starboard, but in time I think this will be a good thing once I got it dialed in.
Naish Jetfoil 1650 even with the foil right in the middle of the box instantly feels like the balance point is further back, and feels like it is much more suited to the board. Surprised me that size is not everything, and I think this had even more lift than the 2000 Starboard, but it is noticeably slow, I really struggled with Gybes as I could not get it to glide as well. Very slow stall speed but when it stalls it drops suddenly off foil, the starboard was a much longer glide and gentle landing.
Naish Jetfoil 1250. There was not enough wind to get full potential at about 15kts, but it also balanced really well on the board with a central stance with the foil in the middle. Felt much faster and much more responsive than 1650, would be real fun with enough wind.
Starboard Oceanfoil 2000. In hindsight this is a really nice foil, fast with good glide and enough surface to give good lift. It is just not suited to Naish boards as the track does not go back far enough to get good stance... but I sold it now...
Now the bigger issue is that after 1 day of not especially hard use the Naish mast bent severely. Exactly what I was worried about, so the final decision is Armstrong, and I wont be buying anymore Naish Gear. I started a new thread for the bent mast... www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/Naish-S25-Bent-mast
