Hello,
I am new to the sport. Just ordered a new set of gear from F4 Europe (Freeride 1400 and 2000 set).
F4 F2000 impossible to attach to the fuselage. After many back and forth with F4 I debugged the issue down to the fact that among the 3 holes it has the back hole is slightly, about 0.5mm closer to the front on the foil compared to the corresponding thread in the fuselage. Making back screw enter the thread at a bit of an angle. Which (in my world) makes it impossible to assemble without introducing way too much stress on the foil.
F4 sent me a second set. And it has exactly the same issue. The back hole is 0.5-1.0mm closer to the center than it needs to be. Since F4 claims it is ok and they tested it before shipping. So I pushed the screws. And as expected, the stress cracked the paint(!) on the foil whereas the foil has not touched the fuselage yet. I.e. I didn't overtightened bolts yet. Just the forces of M8 screws trying to move 0.5mm to the side created all the stress. What happened deep in the carbon layers I of course don't know. Not likely it is good for it. So I strongly suspect a bad production run on F4 F2000. I.e. get 2(!) foils with the same issue in a row.
Wonder what is your experience with front foils and F4 in particular? I expected the screws just drop in and go relatively easy first several turns. Well at least the holes should align. Right? And this is how F1400 assembles
Unfortunately, as a new user I cannot post links. I have a video on youtube. Search for "F4 F2000 impossible to assemble" you should find the video. Maybe someone with rights to post links can post it in this thread if finds it helpful for discussion. And in the video description there are 2 links on how F4 delivers and initial impression on the basic QA of the foil, kind of surprising to have such an experience from such a company.
I wish I would be commenting on the fantastic flights I have on F4. But unfortunately I am stuck on the beach for 3rd week and probably several more now because of this issue 
The most annoying thing. F4 just happy to give me money back and looks like has zero interest solving the issue. So next time some of the community will order F2000 they might run into this issue.
For all your mucking around it seems to me you could just open the hole on the foil a little bit with a small round file. Save yourself a lot of drama and be on the water in 5 minutes. I've been stoked with my F4 foils.
AandJ, thanks for posting this, I have to agree with you, it's amazing that this foil could have such a fabrication issue, it's a pity that some companies don't invest more in building a better relationship with their customers, especially those who communicate in good faith, however it seems that in the sport customers have got used to working around these kind of problems because of the performance they can get from certain equipment, I use GoFoil and some aspects are like stone age, assembly, fitting, lining up, there are also lots of youtube videos, BUT I keep with it because I have so much fun (and the positives far outweigh the negatives). like AUS said you can send it back and be done with F4 or just take a good file / reamer to the hole and be done with it, but I do hope that the manufacturers make more effort to build better customer relationships.
You can get an awful performing foil which is mechanically 100% or an amazing foil that needs tinkering, but maybe you just can't have both
Problems are not limited to F4. I have one fuse-front wing combo from a different brand that was impossible to assemble (bought as a set). The same fuse worked fine with two other front wings (different sizes) I already had. I ended up sanding the fuse down quite a bit. Now the smallest front wing fits, but the others are too loose. I'd buy a new fuse but this particular brand has changed the fuses two or three times, in incompatible ways, so the only option is switching to another brand. Not mentioning the brand name since it would be flogging a dead horse.
Thanks for very useful comments. Calibrates my expectations :). Yeah, sanding here or there is ok. This time the trouble is that the second set F4 sent they preassembled. And even sent me photos. So that is why I was expecting that no work was needed out of the box.
Yet after all the troubles. I looked more carefully at the photos F4 sent and realized that the F2000 they preassembled without putting the back screw in(??). I.e. F4 put 2 front ones and they put a 15mm black one at the back (whereas the width of this foil is about 15mm in the back, so the back screw on the photo is only for optics). Did they expect customers to cut off 1mm (not paint but carbon around screw hole)? Well they sure didn't tell me. The F4 message was very clear: it is plug and play now, we double tested it manually since this is a new 2024 batch. here is the photo attached. One wouldn't expect more DYI needed after that. Well, some sort of joke which I don't get. If even manual F4 QA is so off mark.
Interesting review about this gear that dont have a lot. for my qc is very important , it's not the user that need to do their work even if it cheap.
Select to expand quoteAUS126 said..
For all your mucking around it seems to me you could just open the hole on the foil a little bit with a small round file. Save yourself a lot of drama and be on the water in 5 minutes. I've been stoked with my F4 foils.
Foiling is a rapidly progressing sport still in it's infancy. If you purchase gear online (no local shop?) you will find that you will have to learn how to maintain, modify, and repair your own gear. Even GoFoil whom I consider to be the best foil system in terms of fit and finish, has multiple videos on how to use tools and epoxies to make things that have worn fit correctly.
If you do take a round rasp to the hole, as long as you don't file into the foam core, you don't need to seal it. If you expose foam, you'll need to seal with some 2 part epoxy.
Personally, I'd send it back and move on to another company in this situation.
Select to expand quoteHwy1North said..AUS126 said..
For all your mucking around it seems to me you could just open the hole on the foil a little bit with a small round file. Save yourself a lot of drama and be on the water in 5 minutes. I've been stoked with my F4 foils.
Foiling is a rapidly progressing sport still in it's infancy. If you purchase gear online (no local shop?) you will find that you will have to learn how to maintain, modify, and repair your own gear. Even GoFoil whom I consider to be the best foil system in terms of fit and finish, has multiple videos on how to use tools and epoxies to make things that have worn fit correctly.
If you do take a round rasp to the hole, as long as you don't file into the foam core, you don't need to seal it. If you expose foam, you'll need to seal with some 2 part epoxy.
Personally, I'd send it back and move on to another company in this situation.
The chances of a foam core around those holes is very unlikely. There is a lot of load on that joint.
I have contacted an independent e-shop in EU, asked them to measure F4 F2000 before shipping it to me (I still was hoping that I had just a glitchy batch of F2000). The shop came back with: "No F2000 has holes aligned. It is ALWAYS such a pain to put on the fuselage because of that. I've personally used it and here is the black magic which would attach it to the fuselage. .. If you expect good mechanical quality we recommend brands X, Y, Z". At this point I gave up. And I repeatedly asked F4: give me a working foil, I don't need money back. They wouldn't. I guess F4 simply doesn't have one at the moment and expect people to deal with this. And F4 is perfectly happy with this for years as it looks. Something is not working in F4 production/distribution/QA/customer support chain. Not for me anyway.
So I took the money. And even that F4 couldn't just do. Some dancing was needing, they wouldn't just return it, F4 was asking for my bank account instead of just returning to my credit card. F4 asked that in an email thread with bunch of F4 people = welcome to privacy and security. Now I wonder how their internal IT system works if they take privacy and security so lightly. Probably as broken and full of security holes as the rest of my experience.
Here is btw how it looks. The back hole is actually 1.3mm off. and you can see all the cracks in the foil due to stress.
Whole thing was so upsetting and waste of time. I've actually documented it so anyone can make own judgment if this is ok.
delivery 1 (spoiler: inadequate packaging = damaged foils )
randomshares9.wordpress.com/2023/08/10/f4-foils-1/
delivery 2 (spoiler: F4 sent which I believe a FAKE picture of an assembled foil as a proof that they send a working foil this time. What F4 was thinking? How is that possible or accepted?)
randomshares9.wordpress.com/2023/08/11/f4-foils-2/
AndJ seems like you got pretty peeved off by this, personally I am amazed any company can produce a product with this misalignment and not want to give credit to the customer and get the problem sorted. The paint chipping off, I think is pretty standard, metal to paint on carbon is never going to be perfect. However unfortunate your experience is I don't think that you will gain much unless you remain 'neutral' as F4 is a pretty respected company as far as I can tell
I would be done with any company that keeps me off the water like this and that doesn't acknowledge serious issues in their production runs. I hope you can safely get your money back and move on. Have you considered a credit card charge back option? Good luck.
AndJ .. I really sympathise with you. I read the WordPress blog posts and am just truly shocked!!! And I really considered F4 before landing on the North Sonar foil which just oozes high quality finish and QC. Ive had foils from AFS, NP, Sabfoil and North and all were well packaged.
Honestly that packaging... ****ing insulting!
For sure after reading this never F4 for me!
So sorry to hear about your experience with F4. This is shocking since our sport is a game of millimeters. Tiny deviation from the original design will greatly affect the performance of the foil. If they can't even get the paint right, I'm wondering how much deviation each foil is from the design specs. My guess is that two foils of the same model and size will ride differently.
Select to expand quoteGoofcat said..
If they can't even get the paint right, I'm wondering how much deviation each foil is from the design specs. My guess is that two foils of the same model and size will ride differently.
Indeed. Now understanding this sport bit more, seeing that changing 0.5degree angle of attack makes a big difference makes me wonder how close those foils I have received actually to the original design.
Below is how much extra paint/production leftovers F2000 had left AFTER I first put it on (with 2 screws, 3rd screw is impossible to put on both F2000). I.e. initially that was going on all the way up, just got compressed by the fuselage. Yet still about 1-2mm left. Sure making the angle of attack way off of what designers intended.
And here is F1400. I unfortunately didn't make photos "before". I just took a knife and removed it to make F1400 mount correctly to the fuselage (again maybe causing whole system not be as designer intended). Note this is F1400 which F4 sent me second time. With photos(!) showing how nicely all parts fit together. And F1400 was "attaching" but still needed all that fine tuning. And since F4 did a manual quality check, went through trouble of making and sending photos, then this is the current state of quality F4 is happy sending to customers. i.e. this is not a foil straight from a factory and somehow missed a quality control. Those were MANUALLY inspected by F4 and assembled by F4 with photos sent as a proof how nicely all fits together right before sending foils to me.
Of course those are "smallish" issues in the big picture of not being able to even attach F2000 foil with all 3 screws (reason this whole thread started), those are possible to fix at home. That is why I didn't mention those initially. Yet now all those issues add up now, making me wonder how close those foils are to what was actually designed, where else F4 saved in production of those freeride foils?Select to expand quoteWindbot said..
I hope you can safely get your money back and move on..
F4 immediately offered money back once I contacted them. Money was never an issue. I actually kept asking F4: is this correct? Am I missing something? When issue got identified I kept asking: ok just simply send me a mechanically correct F2000. My biggest issue is: F4 was not able to solve the issue. Kept me out of water for 4 weeks. And potentially will be sending such foils to customers in the future. Seeing 2(!) F2000 foils sent to me with identical problem. F4 solution was: you either deal with this like everyone else "we have thousands of such foils out there" or we are happy to return the money. (and I did move on to 4 letter brand from NZ starting with A. Very very happy foiling now)Select to expand quoteRAF142134 said..
I don't think that you will gain much unless you remain 'neutral' as F4 is a pretty respected company as far as I can tell
Well, "company" is many people, does a lot of things and over time. F4 might have earned respect and is great in some areas yet have issues in other areas. That is normal. Nobody is perfect. And things do change over time, sometimes for vorse. There is no point hiding issues. The more we as customers highlight and share issues (and successes) a company has the better it is for all. The company has a chance to take that feedback and improve. The customers have a chance to make little more educated choices. Like weight all those "paid/sponsored" reviews F4 is pushing in the Internet about this freeride kit. (which I actually watched, liked and was part of my decision to buy F4 foil F2000/F1400 kit. And a sign of "paid" is that 3 reviews I bumped on F2000 in youtube actually deleted my comments about my experience. I guess it is bad for their business of earning commission from sales. I really appreciate that seabreeze has much more open approach) vs experience of actual customers paying full price. How things actually get delivered, how long it takes, how things actually get assembled, how quality everything feels, how F4 support deals with issues and do we get to "yeah, there was an issue but F4 support solved it in no time, great, love it" or "there was an issue and F4 was not able to solve it, this is their current quality standard. Some accept it. Some don't and get money back". With that in mind I shared my experience of buying F4 foils freeride F2000 F1400 kit from F4 Europe. And everyone sure can make their own decisions.
