Hey, I am keen to give a sinker board a go. I don't jump or do tricks and have crossed over from surfing rather than from other wind sports and I really don't like straps. I want to give a sinker board a go but will it be double hard without straps or are there good techniques meaning you don't need them for waterstarts?
Select to expand quoteIanInca said..
Hey, I am keen to give a sinker board a go. I don't jump or do tricks and have crossed over from surfing rather than from other wind sports and I really don't like straps. I want to give a sinker board a go but will it be double hard without straps or are there good techniques meaning you don't need them for waterstarts?
Yeah Straps are unnecessary and really make it no easier for deep water starting. All you have to do is learn to stand on your board in the water and hold it underwater. Most times its easiest to get your front foot in the right spot and use your back foot to drift forward and back to get the balance point right, back leg is bent so the back knee is also sideways on the board as well. Dont try and hold the board to deep but rather just find the mid depth where you can stand and balance.
Go out with out the wing and just practice standing on the board for a few sessions and once you can do this add the wing and off you go.
Jacko
I've been watching my son sink start only over past 6 months and up at Exmouth, Nathan (sunova). Talking to them they are adamant foot straps do help. To balance board more easily (and feet in the right/same spot but also to lift that front foot more easily up and out of the water.
I had my second crack at it and whilst I got going four times I failed several. The times I was successful was when I could get the front foot (front of board) out of the water - then it was easy as shelling peas to get going (as you are pumping such a small board).
the failures were purely not being able to get that damn front foot up and out - I was literally going along under water . which was highly annoying.
nathan and Antman say they can literally lift their front foot up and out. Nathan did say to keep your legs as ent as possible and give the wing sharp sudden cracks rather than the long scooping stuff we do on the knee starts. (Note he is 75kg and was riding a tiny 27 litre sunova prone)
what I suspect is the foot strap allows you to start in more marginal conditions. When the wind was good I was up and going. As soon as it dropped to a point I was aqua planing like a clown under water. Grrrrrrrrr
.. Paul J any tips when not using foot straps to get that damn nose up and out of the water more easily??
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
.. Paul J any tips when not using foot straps to get that damn nose up and out of the water more easily??
Yeah i didn't really notice that much difference, but also never really been a fan of straps and foiling in general( don't jump and prefer the freedom and overall feel with out them.)
Tip's for no straps really once you get 18knots into the wing it just pulls me up and out of the water easy enough so don't feel i need to lift too much, maybe tip for no straps is dont lift the front foot to much as you might just lift it off the board
It's all feel really and as long as you can stand on the board underwater then as soon as the wind is right you will pull out and get on the foil fairly easy.
I still prefer my wing board for 99% of the time but I do live on the goldy which we all know the wind can be light most of the time.
If someone comes from a strapped background then straps might feel easier as well as you are used to them, I kited for 15 odd years and rode straps for a good 10years but by the end I also really preferred the freedom of strapless riding even on the kite so it could just be me who likes the strapless feel
Yeh I'm in the same camp. Hate straps. I've got no intention of jumping. And yeh once the wind was right was not an issue, but I had both enough and not enough in the same session.
I suppose in the back of my mind I'd like to get efficient enough with good technique to get going in more marginal conditions - because once I was up and riding on my smaller prone board, man it was good!! totally worth it
oh and this has been mentioned again and again but if you do prone - the best training when proning is to sink stand your board waiting for the next set. When you get on the wing the muscle memory kicks in.
Thanks for the responses and it's reassured me I can use a sinker or semi sinker without straps.. I currently ride (and will keep) the Naish 85L 5'2. Rather than go for the full on sinker I'm about to order the Gong Matata at 55L 4'11 23" 4.4kgs (similar dims to the smallest Fanatic Sky wing) . With my wetsuit etc I'd be around 80kgs so - 22. On reading people comments a more full on sinker (25 to 35L) is perhaps easier to start with better feeling when flying but I ride at some pretty shallow spots and I'd like to use it not just when it's blowing hard. If I crack the starts I'd add a smaller board, the Gong board is only 399 euros!! Not sure if I order the one slightly smaller - the 4'8 22" 47L 4.1kgs,not sure how much more this will sink over the 55L.
Man 55L is a lot of volume to sink ? I sink a 40l and I wouldnt want much more at 75kg dry.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Man 55L is a lot of volume to sink ? I sink a 40l and I wouldnt want much more at 75kg dry.
I guess that's what I mean, its a compromise, as is life... I'm all about surf and cruisy sessions, respect to Freestyle riders but it's not my bag. Put it this way if I could hang 10 on a sweet right hand wave riding a foil with the wing flagged out I die a happy man.....
If I get a 40L board 50% of the sessions I do I won't be able to use it as its too shallow and then I need enough wind to take off so perhaps then only a total 20% of all my sessions I could use/learn the full on sinker. The 55L is a compromise, only 10% of sessions will be too shallow and I think as long as its not really light wind I can use it a total of 65+% of sessions. I get to use a 4kg prone board 23" wide instead of my 26" wide board which I regularly catch the rails of a wave, chop when I carve hard - which on foil I love more than doing a nice hard fast bottom turn on non-foil surfing, in fact trying to slide the arse off a foil makes me grin like a kid. I'd definitely go smaller if the depth allowed.. Tbf I'd be pretty stoked (over the fxxxking moon) if I could get comfortable on the 55L as my everyday (non light wind) board.. Not many prone surfers (non foil) out there riding (45+years old) 4ft boards.. Lol.. I'll take that!!!
Good topic and info here, thanks!
A bit off-topic; but would it be possible or put it this way, how hard would it be to have foot straps on a very sinkable board (say for 80kg person a 25-30 liter board), and
1st) rider lying on back on the water, then
2) put feet on straps,
3) push the board underwater to straight beneath the rider, and then
4) raise the wing and get the pull from the wind to get up?
Any thoughts?
Like how we did On strapped surfboards on those things .. I think we called them kites back in the day. Surely someone would have tried it by now. Good question.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Yeh I'm in the same camp. Hate straps. I've got no intention of jumping. And yeh once the wind was right was not an issue, but I had both enough and not enough in the same session.
I suppose in the back of my mind I'd like to get efficient enough with good technique to get going in more marginal conditions - because once I was up and riding on my smaller prone board, man it was good!! totally worth it
oh and this has been mentioned again and again but if you do prone - the best training when proning is to sink stand your board waiting for the next set. When you get on the wing the muscle memory kicks in.
What volume prone board do you ride ?
Select to expand quoteIanInca said..
Alan Cadiz has a little video showing this..
What's the title of the vid ?
Main my board about 40 ish litres until I get my new one which will only be 34. I wouldn't say I'm "riding it". Only tried a few sessions with some success but also failure. Work in progress right now. Won't take me long though.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..IanInca said..
Alan Cadiz has a little video showing this..
What's the title of the vid ?
Main my board about 40 ish litres until I get my new one which will only be 34. I wouldn't say I'm "riding it". Only tried a few sessions with some success but also failure. Work in progress right now. Won't take me long though.
It shows it in the first clip.
Thanks but I don't think he is covering what omg suggested. But still some great ideas.
ah I see it
Select to expand quoteeppo said..IanInca said..
Alan Cadiz has a little video showing this..
What's the title of the vid ?
Main my board about 40 ish litres until I get my new one which will only be 34. I wouldn't say I'm "riding it". Only tried a few sessions with some success but also failure. Work in progress right now. Won't take me long though.
Im going to start practicing standing on my prone board while waiting for waves - Ive got a 4'8 31 litre JS Black eagle.
my wing ding board is the 5'5 80 litre armstrong and it feels way too big and oversized when I pull onto a wave. Problem is when Im climbing up its still pretty tippy till I get wind in the wing.
I just had my first real Sink start session. Success!! Can't wait to get straps now. 
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
I just had my first real Sink start session. Success!! Can't wait to get straps now.
so, what method did you use?
Just the squat method which seems to be what most I've seen used on the actual water. Don't have foot straps so couldn't try the side on aka kite foil start. In summer, with new board and straps and when I'm not freezing my nuts off and there isn't so much swell running I will try others.
A funny humbling story though. so I'm up and going - flying super conservatively - like a lame duck just happy I was up - as I'm not sure if I can actually pull off the sink start twice in a session . and some dude from nowhere starts tweaking huge jumps, rotations, carving up waves aggressively and and and.
I was like "who is gods name is this!" .
When I got to shore it was Bastien (winner of the cut race last year, been a French national windsurf champion bla bla bla you get it - he's as good as it gets).
it then Made sense lol. Nice guy by the way and a reminder of the depths of crap my skills are at. Lol.
this sink starting is still on my list ... but just never the right day to give up a fun session to go back to mega frustration 
Anyone tried foot hooks instead of straps? For kite foiling I found them to be a nice happy medium. You have something to press against to get 75% "hold" but you can still move your feet around (inward from stance) and you are not locked in for wipeouts. I think it is particularly beneficial for the one-strap folks, as we've all heard the tales of blown knees from doing this....that risk is real. The longer foot hooks give just barely enough grab that you can keep the board in place on water starts kiting.
Select to expand quotejuandesooka said..
this sink starting is still on my list ... but just never the right day to give up a fun session to go back to mega frustration
Anyone tried foot hooks instead of straps? For kite foiling I found them to be a nice happy medium. You have something to press against to get 75% "hold" but you can still move your feet around (inward from stance) and you are not locked in for wipeouts. I think it is particularly beneficial for the one-strap folks, as we've all heard the tales of blown knees from doing this....that risk is real. The longer foot hooks give just barely enough grab that you can keep the board in place on water starts kiting.
I've just taken delivery of the Slingshot ones. I have to wait until August 20th for my semi sinker board and then I'm trying in without any straps and with 1 front strap and back hook.
Select to expand quoteIanInca said..juandesooka said..
this sink starting is still on my list ... but just never the right day to give up a fun session to go back to mega frustration
Anyone tried foot hooks instead of straps? For kite foiling I found them to be a nice happy medium. You have something to press against to get 75% "hold" but you can still move your feet around (inward from stance) and you are not locked in for wipeouts. I think it is particularly beneficial for the one-strap folks, as we've all heard the tales of blown knees from doing this....that risk is real. The longer foot hooks give just barely enough grab that you can keep the board in place on water starts kiting.
I've just taken delivery of the Slingshot ones. I have to wait until August 20th for my semi sinker board and then I'm trying in without any straps and with 1 front strap and back hook.
Yep, I think that's a good bet, a front strap and then a back hook -- I think the NSI Kling-on style is optimal, pretty much a block of foam with a slight lip, something to push against.
For the longer hook style ones, you can also DIY them. I have done it with a chunk of plastic (cutting board), heated with heat gun and then bent to shape. This is how we used to get the desired bend in plastic street hockey sticks, Canadian eh! Method 2 is to use poly pipe, bend with heat and hammer it flat. We wear booties year round, so rough edges don't matter, but people glue on some neoprene to make them softer.
One negative of these DIYs is they end up too strong. You will find the proper store bought ones are distressingly weak, they break really easy. In kiting, that's a safety ... in a kitemare, better the hook breaks then your leg or otherwise. So the hook is designed to break under light load, the DIY ones are way stronger, potentially unbreakable, which makes them a little more dangerous in kiting. However, in winging, the forces involved and danger risks are much less, probably not a concern.
Foot hooks hey. Yeh right might be worth exploring that. Only thing is I am hoping to keep straps on and prone as well with same board (like my son does).
yeh I'm thinking just front strap to start with as well. I know when the swell was really big I used to use a front strap on my kite surfboard. Well in the end I never used straps at all even in big swell but it did help a lot in the early days. Never liked a back strap. I tend to move my back foot around more than the front.
one thing I've noticed from my limited time sink starting is getting that front nose up and out of the water is the critical and most frustrating thing. Having a front strap must help lifting that front nose up. once nose is up doesn't matter much about where you are at with power (or say a slight drop in wind) you can then work it for as long as you want to eventually get going.
anyhow hopefully a session today we will see what transpires lol.
Select to expand quoteIanInca said..juandesooka said..
this sink starting is still on my list ... but just never the right day to give up a fun session to go back to mega frustration
Anyone tried foot hooks instead of straps? For kite foiling I found them to be a nice happy medium. You have something to press against to get 75% "hold" but you can still move your feet around (inward from stance) and you are not locked in for wipeouts. I think it is particularly beneficial for the one-strap folks, as we've all heard the tales of blown knees from doing this....that risk is real. The longer foot hooks give just barely enough grab that you can keep the board in place on water starts kiting.
I've just taken delivery of the Slingshot ones. I have to wait until August 20th for my semi sinker board and then I'm trying in without any straps and with 1 front strap and back hook.
semi sinker board . I assume its the Gong Matata, may I ask the freight costs and carrier. Thanks
Select to expand quotekitenow said..IanInca said..juandesooka said..
this sink starting is still on my list ... but just never the right day to give up a fun session to go back to mega frustration
Anyone tried foot hooks instead of straps? For kite foiling I found them to be a nice happy medium. You have something to press against to get 75% "hold" but you can still move your feet around (inward from stance) and you are not locked in for wipeouts. I think it is particularly beneficial for the one-strap folks, as we've all heard the tales of blown knees from doing this....that risk is real. The longer foot hooks give just barely enough grab that you can keep the board in place on water starts kiting.
I've just taken delivery of the Slingshot ones. I have to wait until August 20th for my semi sinker board and then I'm trying in without any straps and with 1 front strap and back hook.
semi sinker board . I assume its the Gong Matata, may I ask the freight costs and carrier. Thanks
Yeah, it's the 4'11 55L version. I went for the non pro version which has no inserts, is very light 4kg and is only 399 euros!! I'm keeping my bigger 85L board for light wind and trying various strap/hook options to perhaps try a few jumps. Atm I hate straps and therefore don't jump. I'd like to use the semi sinker in all but the 8 to 12 knots range.
Well another session in less than ideal conditions with a fast running current and choppy swell, plus gusty wind from okay to highly marginal (given my current skill set)
Nearly all failed attempts were because I couldn't quite get that nose up and out of water. Every time I did 100 percent start rate.
a lot of failures the nose was sitting there just below surface . a front foot strap would have been super handy. Also when balancing in squat stance I was using the front foot all the time to stabilise - again a front strap would have made it much easier.
conclusion. At least a front strap may be worthwhile.
if you are going to try a sinker start i.e standing on the board - is it beneficial to have less litres/volume(float). ?
it is harder to stand/balance on board close to body weight ?
Yeh. Even at 40/41 litres I'm having to try hard to keep her down and not allow the board to shoot up. Maybe 50 litres -55 max but I could be wrong as I've never tried it
My tip regarding wing handling while doing sinker start (strapless or not): rather than holding on the wing leading edge, grip the leash about a foot from the attachement point and pull down on it under water AT ALL TIME. When ready to do your water start, grab the board rails with both hands (with one still holding the leash) and place your feet on the board. Doing so allows you to both hold the wing and the board rail, which stabilizes a lot! Once done keep pulling down while waiting for a gust.
Yeh I vouch for the above. Also the other day with the weird swell and chop, once I had the board down, at times I would hold the position with two hands on top of the wing leading edge as well. Just waiting a bit. Not ideal but at times it was necessary.
my son said something interesting as well. Given there is enough wind, he times it so as the swell comes through and lifts you - that's when he engages the wing. Then you have the swell lifting you as well as wing. Then as you fall back into the trough easier to get that nose out of the water (as the water drips beneath you) and get going.
tried with out front straps, zero chance with my 50 yr old sense of balance hhh ... so been trying with a set of North V front straps .. still work in progress ... managed one run on each tack so far
4'6" x 20" 36L with 66kg rider 'wetted'
