I have read a lot of discussion on this forum about DW boards for light wind winging, but as a beginner-intermediate I'm still not clear on a couple of things. First, do people ride these boards only in light wind or do they also ride them up through the 20s and beyond, and in rough conditions? And if not, why not -- honest question, I have limited experience. Second, I see a lot of new wing boards that are narrow (19-22") but much shorter than the Barracuda for example, like in the 5'6"-6'10" range. What do these short narrow boards gain and lose in the tradeoff of length? I'm imagining they lose just the very low end wind range, say 6-10, but I'm just guessing.
Select to expand quoteMediumSizedDan said..
I have read a lot of discussion on this forum about DW boards for light wind winging, but as a beginner-intermediate I'm still not clear on a couple of things. First, do people ride these boards only in light wind or do they also ride them up through the 20s and beyond, and in rough conditions? And if not, why not -- honest question, I have limited experience. Second, I see a lot of new wing boards that are narrow (19-22") but much shorter than the Barracuda for example, like in the 5'6"-6'10" range. What do these short narrow boards gain and lose in the tradeoff of length? I'm imagining they lose just the very low end wind range, say 6-10, but I'm just guessing.
Your maximum below planing speed and the easiness to accelerate and maintain that speed depend mostly on waterline lenght.
Width ,rocker,shape and volume are critical too but you cannot cheat waterline lenght...just like foils cannot cheat aspect ratio.
So yes,you loose low end performance in exchange for maneuvrability.
I have a home build 6'4" x 22 dw shape @100L made from a 5'6" x 30 similar volume. Ended up 8kg from the original 5kg but still amazing for light wind. Like you I wondered if this would translate to higher wind. So I found a 6'0 x 20 dw 80L.
As well as a big step down in volume for me it was also super tricky in the wind chop. Once flying though, it didn't get caught by the wind like a wider board would and no significant swing weight issue with central foil box mount.
Haven't tried low volume traditional wing board to compare but, it felt more surfie, which is what I'm after.
Not straps, no flips and spins. Just nice turns on and off swell.
I'm wondering about similar things, and am looking forward to demoing to see for myself...I don't see myself w/an 8' cuda, but just how long to go to make getting up in light winds remains a big question (along with volume). Currently liking the looks of the Amos Sultan Wing, but its a crap shoot as to which size makes the most sense for my 63kg late beginner self looking for help generating sufficient board speed in flat water light wind conditions...
As winter sets in here, I have a while to wait for everyone to figure things out, then try some new boards in the spring...
I have the smallest Armstrong DW board 6'3 x 18 3/4" and it's amazing for my 80kg. In lightwind very nice with pumping technique it goes earlier than "old school" wingboard. Also I have ridden it to 30+knots, ie. 2,5m Unit wing and it wasn't bad at all. Of course when starting with heavy chop/waves there's much more for water to push the board if it's sideways against the waves, but otherwise no issues. I love the narrowness of the board, game changer, and the reason I bought the board. 6 out of 5! :)
oh yeah, this board is very agile, couldn't believe it!
Select to expand quoteomg said..
I have the smallest Armstrong DW board 6'3 x 18 3/4" and it's amazing for my 80kg. In lightwind very nice with pumping technique it goes earlier than "old school" wingboard. Also I have ridden it to 30+knots, ie. 2,5m Unit wing and it wasn't bad at all. Of course when starting with heavy chop/waves there's much more for water to push the board if it's sideways against the waves, but otherwise no issues. I love the narrowness of the board, game changer, and the reason I bought the board. 6 out of 5! :)
oh yeah, this board is very agile, couldn't believe it!
Great information. That's the paradox I see for me. I am interested in one as a board to ride the afternoon 10-12knot seabreeze which is a bit frustratingly light to build initial planing speed on my 5'4. The seabreeze however is always accompanied by the usual chop which sticks the small board down but also would push the longer DW board around & make it harder to get up due to its' narrow beam & inherent tippiness.
I'd love to demo one & see what they're like.
Select to expand quoteMicrosurfer said..omg said..
I have the smallest Armstrong DW board 6'3 x 18 3/4" and it's amazing for my 80kg. In lightwind very nice with pumping technique it goes earlier than "old school" wingboard. Also I have ridden it to 30+knots, ie. 2,5m Unit wing and it wasn't bad at all. Of course when starting with heavy chop/waves there's much more for water to push the board if it's sideways against the waves, but otherwise no issues. I love the narrowness of the board, game changer, and the reason I bought the board. 6 out of 5! :)
oh yeah, this board is very agile, couldn't believe it!
Great information. That's the paradox I see for me. I am interested in one as a board to ride the afternoon 10-12knot seabreeze which is a bit frustratingly light to build initial planing speed on my 5'4. The seabreeze however is always accompanied by the usual chop which sticks the small board down but also would push the longer DW board around & make it harder to get up due to its' narrow beam & inherent tippiness.
I'd love to demo one & see what they're like.
Yes I have this same question. I tried a narrow board (20"?) once in relatively calm conditions and managed the width OK, or at least I improved enough over the session to have confidence that with another session or two I'd adjust just fine. One thing I remember appreciating was the length of the board, it made getting to my feet more forgiving for some reason. If I struggled up a bit off balance or too far forward and accidentally sunk the nose it didn't throw me off, for some reason the length (or maybe it was the width) kind of dampened the effect. However with roll from messy wind chop I don't know. Guess to get started you would need to power up and head down wind to eliminate as much roll as possible. Maybe omg can tell us?
Also chophopper, did you try your 100L in the wind chop? Dropping 20L and 2" of width and then adding chop sounds like a lot of change at once.
Yes extending the waterline helps but there's a point of diminishing returns for a wing board at around 2 meters (we are talking winging only here, not paddling up). Where you end then for width and volume would vary by your weight and wind strength. I'm very happy with a Kalama 6'7 x 23 115L for light wind winging but wouldn't bother anyway under 10mph winds regardless of the equipment. Do you really want to put 2300usd into a board to wing in 8mph winds? Buy yourself a decent bicycle instead and wait for the wind to pick up.
My everyday wing board is 5'5 x 21.5. It fires onto to foil nearly as good as my longer board.
My longer board is 6'8 x 21.5. It's the board I grab when I don't want to struggle for whatever reason that day. It could be bigger wind holes. It could be light wind only. It could be the sea state.
The nice thing about the 6'8, is it still feels very sporty and short compared to my old 7'6 board. It pumps great. So at 6'8, I'll grab it without hesitation. No need to sit on the beach waiting and debating between my 6'8 and 5'5. They both are awesome sizes.
Now if I was planning to SUP DW, I might prefer a 7'6 and then I'd be more likely to sit on the beach and debate using it.
Had a 6'1" x 23" @ 105 litre Kalama E3 (the orange board in the photos) and used it for winging in all conditions, gets out of water in light winds (sub 8 knots) with big wing and foil and absolutely loved it.
Grabbed a used Amos Sultan 7'2" x 19" @ 103 litres on a whim to see what all the fuss/hype was about, wow this board is fast through the water, first time out taxiing through the moored boats and I could see how much speed I had with hardly anything in the wing. As everyone comments, the length disappears as you are standing amidships rather than at the stern. Definitely very easy to get up in light winds, very stable, doesn't slow down on touchdowns blah blah,
One downside I noticed was the board getting turned downwind when I was in the water and trying to get going again in waves/wind. Simply spin the board by pushing the wings leading edge and sometimes hang the upwind leg over the edge of the board and drag it to keep the board tracking across the wind whilst getting forward motion.
I kept thinking about the Kalama E3 and thought that my dream wing board would be a slightly shorter/less volume version. I came across a 5'9" x 22 1/2 " @ 95 Kalama (blue board in the photos) and now with a few sessions on this board I think Ive found the sweet spot. Took a session to get used to the fore/aft instability compared to the 7'2" Sultan, but Ive found I can get this shorter board going in light winds now that I have finally got my wing/board pump cadence in synch. The shorter board actually bounces quite high out of the water in 2 or 3 pumps and the Kalama tail/rail design releases the board very quickly and cleanly. I haven't had a chance to try the 5'9" in the surf yet, but the shorter length should let me slot into the troughs.
I had a session yesterday where the wind died when I was 600m from shore and this 95 litre board is easy to stand on and taxi or do a spinnaker run or kneel or lie down to paddle.
So for me this board is really best of both worlds, small enough to be a heap of fun, but big enough to be comfortable and energy efficient
For reference: Im 180cm and 82kg
I switch from a, 88L arstrong FG board to a 6'6" 88L KT Dragonfly downwind board for winging only, me 77 kg and 54 y/old, ride it light wind up to 30 knot, my previous experience whit downwind board was whit a Cruzader hipe 132L for traveling.
now I love this KT dragonfly, I bought it from a recommendation of a friend, at first look when I receive it I Todd it was a mistake( so skinny)
once you get adapted to the roll instability I can start in super messy chop in the lake, dont be scaird to go small if for winging only.
Personaly I never had a board so light, very easy to turn it on a dime and the nose length is smaller than my previous board
Many of the DW boards' light wind winging attributes are now being incorporated into strictly winging boards for light wind winging and beyond. Several manufacturers will be offering these boards over the next few months.
Here's a look at the new Armstrong wing boards, which incorporate the things they learned from the DW boards (at the 2 minute mark):
Select to expand quoteMediumSizedDan said..
I have read a lot of discussion on this forum about DW boards for light wind winging, but as a beginner-intermediate I'm still not clear on a couple of things. First, do people ride these boards only in light wind or do they also ride them up through the 20s and beyond, and in rough conditions? And if not, why not -- honest question, I have limited experience. Second, I see a lot of new wing boards that are narrow (19-22") but much shorter than the Barracuda for example, like in the 5'6"-6'10" range. What do these short narrow boards gain and lose in the tradeoff of length? I'm imagining they lose just the very low end wind range, say 6-10, but I'm just guessing.
At 73Kg, I wingfoil ride my 6'3" 90L Sunova Casey-Tardrew "Elite" board in 5 to 30 kts of wind. With narrow plan, rounded rails and most extra vol behind the mast, the air drag in strong winds is surprisingly low. I also have a 55L conventional short board for conditions when I know I will always get up quick and easily. Doing 3x wind speed in light air is a lot of fun, but you have to get on foil first.
Your guess about the tradeoff going short+narrow is correct. Loss of some ease of lift-off. Gains in mobility and air drag once up. Conditions dependent. Basic DW design principles apply for any choice.
I recommend my Sunova board to anyone, but it has one major vice for winging ... no front footstrap anchors. I had to build some in. Then it became awesome. Front footstraps, two independent (not a vee), allows an offset front-rear stance and gives the front foot heaps of control over aggressive changes in roll which greatly improves turn response, and agility compensates for some of the boards inertia.
For ease of learning, light air, sticky chop, smaller foil lift off, easier climbing back on ... Just go for it. When 8/10 people rave about boards that are in general long aspect and thicker with more vol behind the mast, then you can assume they're not all deluded and jerking each other off. Others who say "... not for me" have their own specific use cases. Choose the size for your needs. I guess the principle is valid for the majority of wing-foilers.
But beware of a trap: If you want a DW board to assist with getting out of the water with a small foil and/or smaller sail, then you want a shape which can rock-squat enough to get some brief angle on the foil. A DW board that can squat the tail, wont always suck down like an old design short+wide wing board with a "tail kick". But some DW designs are too long and flat for winging and you cannot squat the tail in a fixed feet position. Therefore they need a big+slow foil to lift off, or they angle the mast tracks for foil nose-up for a flat take-off, but once up, this mast-track angle means the board rides nose down, which results in a straight front leg which is very bad for multiple reasons.
seems like there are a couple different approaches to light wind, and every area has a different condition that constitutes "light wind". some are using really big powerful foils like SAB Leviathan 1350 (in Damo and Gwen's videos) and some are using more lean foils and need more board speed to get going.
I've ridden the Leviathan 1350 with my 75l Sky Style TE and a ~117l custom DW board. The foil is so big that I really just need a board to stand on and enough sail to pull against while pumping the foil up. in light, but easily foilable wind, I actually found [my regular board to be easier. in really light wind where people were swimming in and slogging and waiting for a gust was the strategy, the DW board was much easier... could slog back to the dock in really light wind and have great directional stability/ability.
When riding with a leaner foil like the Duotone Glide 905/1085, the Duotone Downwinder 7'2 110l the longer, narrow shape made getting onto foil with less effort.
It's kind of nice being able to sheet in and go and not have a ton of pull from the wing. it's a different kind of foiling but very pleasurable. Interested to try a board like the AFS Blackbird 6'2" (22" wide) or Kalama E3 as I would like a dedicated light wind winging board for my 88kg and I don't plan to paddle it.
actually rode the Duotone DW board pretty powered up in the gorge w/ a 4.0 wing and it felt surprisingly normal... was in control at board speeds in the 20-22kt range and was able to do downwind 360s no problem.
I'm heading down a different path for light wind winging. I really dislike riding big boards, I'm 80kgs and my 74ltr x5'3x22 is ample in anything down to 10knots. The trick is the new front wings appearing on the market, they are large area, but super thin. The new Naish HA I'm on is 1440sqcm, much larger than Ive ever considered riding before (except when learning). So although your on a 1440 wing they feel heaps smaller, get going super easy and once up are great to ride allowing you to practice tacks etc in the lightest breeze.
Generally, if I can get to standing, I can pump onto the foil with a 5mtr wing. As soon as you're moving just start foot pumping and you're up and away. Although my 74ltr is technically a sinker for me, the front wing lifts it out of the water as soon as you start pumping.
It's also nice not having to bring 2 boards to the beach, if the wind picks up I just drop to my 900sqcm front wing. So no need for a DW board when using a large super thin wing. The Axis 1201 works great too though has a slightly higher stall speed compared to the Naish.
I think the question should be ' is there a disadvantage winging a long narrow board in strong wind',
Simpler answer for me is probably no. It depends on ones expectations and conditions, maybe it open water with surf but where I am Ettalong and Lake Munmora the advantages with the Barracuda outwiegh the disadvantages right now.
Ive been winging using a 7'10 102lt barracuda exclusively in all wind strengths including in exess of 35kts for 2 months. My short wing board 5'2 85lt sky has been unused since getting the DK. I think you can ride anything with the appropriate set up. Im finding that with the narrow slippery DK that starts are easier both in very light wind because board speed is higher and in heavy condition because fore/aft and directional stability is better. It taxis standing up really wellI in super light wing and paddles well its lot faster through the water so it makes long trips back when the breeze drops easier. I was using my DW 6'3 22 85lt previously as an alternative to the 5'2. Adjusting to short/wide or long/narrow just has a different set of considerations, Long/narrow is easier though.
Touchdowns are very different, the DK just slices over the chops and keeps going.
Also allows a smaller foil and more important a smaller wing in lighter conditions.
So A nice very light wing set up can be png 1300 with maybe a smaller wing.
Im not missing a short board atm.
What Ive found from prior surfing experience many years ago; Id have three boards and ride one until I had mastered all its nuances and become a bit stale then change boards and start the process over. I found that to push me to progress and developed versatility.I do the same sort of thing now with boards and foils except now I'm no where near mastering the foil, Its working though, adjusting to different boards is no big deal.
To date Ive kept all the boards and foils for that reason, its good to swap it up and down.
We started with Armstrong 1010/1550 v1 (now gathering dust)
Changed quickly to Axis Bsc Png and Hps.Art. Art pro.. The new 951 is quick btw.
Me.72yr 72kg 5'7
Wings . Dlab unit 6, Smik 3.5 4 5 6 .
Has anyone seen anyone riding a negative size DW board for the rider size? I currently ride a standard 62l (75kg) board. I'm sure if I went with a 62l DW board I would get the additional low end that I'm looking. Will it be too unstable?
I'm interested too, also wondering if anyone riding smaller like 5'6 x 19 in choppy sea states. Everything I see from sponsored riders is super smooth waves ?
Select to expand quoteMediumSizedDan said..
I have read a lot of discussion on this forum about DW boards for light wind winging, but as a beginner-intermediate I'm still not clear on a couple of things. First, do people ride these boards only in light wind or do they also ride them up through the 20s and beyond, and in rough conditions? And if not, why not -- honest question, I have limited experience. Second, I see a lot of new wing boards that are narrow (19-22") but much shorter than the Barracuda for example, like in the 5'6"-6'10" range. What do these short narrow boards gain and lose in the tradeoff of length? I'm imagining they lose just the very low end wind range, say 6-10, but I'm just guessing.
I have a Barracuda 7'10" 19.5 105lt. I ride it in all winds. No down side with strong wind. Large short side chop can be a start up challenge. I soon learnt to deal with that.
But if I had a shorter E3 say 6'0" x 20" ish about 80lts I'd likely use that in those rougher short chop conditions.
The long Barracuda is an excellent taxi back in when the wind drops bellow foil strength.
my wt. 72kg.
Select to expand quotesaltwaterwine said..MediumSizedDan said..
I have read a lot of discussion on this forum about DW boards for light wind winging, but as a beginner-intermediate I'm still not clear on a couple of things. First, do people ride these boards only in light wind or do they also ride them up through the 20s and beyond, and in rough conditions? And if not, why not -- honest question, I have limited experience. Second, I see a lot of new wing boards that are narrow (19-22") but much shorter than the Barracuda for example, like in the 5'6"-6'10" range. What do these short narrow boards gain and lose in the tradeoff of length? I'm imagining they lose just the very low end wind range, say 6-10, but I'm just guessing.
I have a Barracuda 7'10" 19.5 105lt. I ride it in all winds. No down side with strong wind. Large short side chop can be a start up challenge. I soon learnt to deal with that.
But if I had a shorter E3 say 6'0" x 20" ish about 80lts I'd likely use that in those rougher short chop conditions.
The long Barracuda is an excellent taxi back in when the wind drops bellow foil strength.
my wt. 72kg.
I ride a 4'11 x 22 1/2 x 60l Jas?n Pyke custom I am 88kg. I also have a 75l Amos peregrine and a sup foil but for waves, 6'6" x 26 x 120l also from Pyke.
The 75 was my main board and ordered the 60 for my son, because the Amos was pretty tricky on my knees never thought of going smaller. Tried the 60l and loved on first go, because it seats under water it is a lot more stable than the 75. For the same reason it is easier to grab the wing.and once up everything is better. I need the same wind as the 75l. So I kept the 60 and ordered a 50l for my son. Will sell the 75.
IMO if the board sinks deep enough, it's stable and easy. If it's seating at the top, it gets pushed by the chop and wind and it's hard to balance and get the wing. If they float a lot, it's easy but you lose a lot of feel when you are up.great in light wind.
so I am using my 6'6" for light wind (boxes super forward makes the board feel shorter) and the 60l when the winds is steady 18knots
