Hi there!
I'm planing to build up a wingfoil quiver. Till now I was windfoiling only with one frontwing (1700 cm?) and three sails (3.7 / 4.5 / 5.8). Now I'm gonna change to wingfoiling. And I'm asking myself which quiver I should aim for.
Weight: 74 kg + a lot of neoprene,impact vest, helmet. Usually it's cold where I surf. And I surf hole year long. No break decembre till february.
Conditions: gusty lakes but also open sea with small swell, 8 - 30 knots. I know that it's getting tricky below 12 knots. But I definitely wanna go out on these light windsdays (8 - 12 knots) with a chance to get up on the foil. I don't have a sweet spot with certain conditions. In my rare spare times I just wanna go out on the water no matter the conditions :)
Quiver 1:
Fanatic Sky Wing 5.4 (95 l)
Duotone Slick 3.5 + 5.0
Fanatic High Aspect Foil 1750
+ : cheapest one
- : less light wind ability / missingthe golden middle?
Quiver 2:
Fanatic Sky Wing 5.4 (95 l)
Duotone Slick 3.5 + 4.5 + 5.5 (6.0???)
Fanatic High Aspect Foil 1750
+ / - : similar to my last windfoilsetup. Should work quite well. But it's getting tricky below 12 knotsI guess. But pumping can be approved certainly...
Quiver 3 and 4 I would purchase step by step. Start with the 2000 and add an 1500 later on.
Quiver 3:
Fanatic Sky Wing 5.4 (95 l)
Duotone Slick 3.5 + 5.0
Fanatic High Aspect Foil 1500 + 2000
+ : better low end than Quiver 1 andprobably even Quiver 2
- : more expensive
Quiver 4:
Fanatic Sky Wing 5.4 (95 l)
Duotone Slick 3.5 + 4.5 + 5.5 (6.0???)
Fanatic High Aspect Foil 1500 + 2000
+ : best wind range
- : more expensive / sometimes it's worse to have too much equipment and you cant't decide which one isthe right one - and maybe you will have the feeling to chose thewrong stuff while on the water...
Any thoughts on these four quivers? I would be grateful for all tips.
Best regards
Robin
Welcome! I've switched from windfoil to wingfoil too. Friend of mine has your quiver 1 option but with a 5.5 sick only. He's a pro iq windfoiler so very competent foiler and rides his wing from about 10 to 25 knots. He must weigh around 100kg. The slicks are very powerful and my most used size is 5.5. His 1750 foil handles those conditions well.
I'd say 95l board, 1750 foil and 5.5 slick. You can add a front wing or wing (I'd say 4.0) later. I started with a 4.5 and 5.5, added a 3.5 and 7.0 later. 3.5 has no use yet. 7.0 and 5.5 get about 45% of use each now. I usually rig a bigger wing and have 2 frontwings so can drop in size if the wind picks up. The 7.0 is a session saver.
I had last years Slicks 3.5, 4.5, 5.5 and 6.5 and they were a game changer for me with the boom. However, along came the Duotone dlab and this has been a significant step up in every respect. I now only need a 4m and 5.5m for my 76kg and foil from below 10kn to 30kn.
Foil wings are Axis HPS 930, ART 899 and 799 with 350p stab.
Boards is Fanatic TE 105 as I have old legs so need a bit of volume in the board.
For your weight I believe your main foil down the line will be 1500, but for the begining (for about 10 sessions only since you have foiling experience) 2000 will be much easier. As per wing I would start probably with 5m and then add slowly +- 1.5m wings, so 3.5 & 6.5m. After 10 sessions your go to board for a quite a while should be your weight +10L. But to start it will be much easier on +30-40L board.
So my suggestion for begining would be to either borrow or buy a cheap used board min +30L, which you will sell soon afterwards. Perhaps do the same with the 2000cm foil or get a 1500+2000 foil, out of which you will soon re-sell the 2000, because 1500 will soon cover most of your needs.
Don't buy new foils in the 2000 and 1500 sizes. Get used scratched things you won't mind trashing and won't lose money when you sell. Then you buy your nice foil in the 1300cm size. Then you Actually buy your ~800-1100cm small foil you can't imagine riding now and it will be your main foil and the rest should be sold. That's my experience anyway, so keep that in mind. The progression happens fast if you get in the water a lot.
I had the echo, slick OG, unit dlabs and just unwrapped my slick sls (thanks sunset Sailboards). Whatever you do, buy new duotone wings you can't go wrong with their newest stuff.
Select to expand quoteJohnnyTsunami said..
Don't buy new foils in the 2000 and 1500 sizes. Get used scratched things you won't mind trashing and won't lose money when you sell. Then you buy your nice foil in the 1300cm size. Then you Actually buy your ~800-1100cm small foil you can't imagine riding now and it will be your main foil and the rest should be sold. That's my experience anyway, so keep that in mind. The progression happens fast if you get in the water a lot.
I had the echo, slick OG, unit dlabs and just unwrapped my slick sls (thanks sunset Sailboards). Whatever you do, buy new duotone wings you can't go wrong with their newest stuff.
This! At 75kg, I started on a 95L board with an Armstrong HS1850 as my main foil. I quickly ended up on an 85L, then 75L board and down to a 1550 to 1250 to 1050. After 6-8 months of regular riding I found I could use an 69L board and HA925 in light wind and HA725 for anything over 15kts. Most recently I've added a HA525 and it appears to get on foil with a 4.7M wing in anything over 15kts...
Put more succinctly... JohnnyT its correct. If you plan to ride a good bit, don't put a lot of money into big foils. Your definition of big foils will change dramatically as you get better.
A two front foils and two wing quiver is enough IMO. I've been using this for years now.
if you are set on the Fanatic/doutone products then consider:
- Foil = 1750 to learn then add 1250
- Wing = 5.0m-5.5m then add 4m
- Board = 95L to learn, you will end up on 75L.
- Mast -80-85cm
style of riding will dictate exactly what size gear you end up on. Are you are wave carver, speed sailor or just looking for maximising time on water?
If you can buy the new SLICK SLS wings they are a significant improvement on Gen1 SLICK. Way more canopy tension. Lighter and more power for given size. I'd say they can easily cover a 1.5m2 size range step per wing. A wing smaller than 4m is not really needed unless you plan to do downwinders or get 25knot+ days regularly.
Any wing gear is better than no wing gear! Happy foiling.
Hey OP, don't over think it. Let the sport come to you. Your prior windfoil experience may or may not help. Just go with the progression at whatever pace it comes. I've seen world champion windsufers and kiters struggle to learn winging, and stay at home moms pick it right up.
At the start it is better to be over-foiled and over-winged. Having time on foil is most important. Don't buy a quiver of nothing! Our sport is changing so fast, your quiver will be outdated before you can use it all. Get the big wing first. Use the big foil you got. Learn to gybe, foot switch, tack. If you get bored after mastering all those skills, then get something smaller to go faster. By that time, there will be a better wing, new foils and everything else.
RobinOTH good to see you get into the winging thing.
Sorry this doesn't really give you an immediate answer, but I'd just suggest if I were you I'd start with 1 wing, 1 board and a foil and see how it goes and then move on from there. You don't want to go get all that gear and then find some of it is not needed or very rarely used.
If light wind is something you are keen on, then trying going for the big MA or HA front foil for starters and see what conditions it functions well in. After some time, you'll get a feel for what you want and can make some better decisions on what you think you'll require.
Re board size, I'm still on a board that's 50L bigger than my weight in kg, and am loving it. I've tried smaller boards but at present, I don't see significant benefit in the smaller size/swing weight, but do have significant benefit if the wind drops and I need to get back to shore. There would be others out there who would not choose my path and I don't say it's wrong for them. A floatier board will help you learn faster, but might hinder progress later on. Bigger boards will also assist you in choppy confused sea states while learning.
Re wing size, I'd be cautious about going too big too early. I can pump a 5m slick and go in 10 knots. A 5.5m slick is almost the same, but I tend to touch the wingtips when pumping, which means I stuff the whole thing up quite often. I'm 175cm tall (5'10"). A 5m is the biggest I'll go with and it's largely based on max area for wingspan. If wingspan is over 3.1m, then I'll avoid that wing. Try before you buy if poss?
I'd also advocate for learning in under 20 knots. Over 20 could get trickier with the forces involved in the wind plus slop on the water. Hence why I think going out and buying small gear before you've tried the lighter wind stuff first may end up with smaller gear you don't want or isn't suited to the purpose you thought it was.
Best thing is to try before you buy. Any friends who have gear you can have a go on first?
I think you're overthinking it! Just start out with a 5m wing and +/- 1500 mid-high aspect wing (AR 6.5-7, like the F-One Phantom 1480) and you'll be golden most of your range. Expand from there where necessary. I think a 2000 and 1500 wing would be way to close together. I personally mostly ride my 940cm2 these days, from 13 knots up with the 5m wing and 90kgs. Thinking of switching my Strike V1 5m to 4.0 and 5.5 V2's to get a little more high end and especially easier rotation in tricks.
Thanks a lot for all your answers!
whiteofheart ist probably right when he tells me that I'm overthinking it :)
the problem is that I'm really keen on going out on the water - but I've got too less spare days in this phase of life. So if my the kids allow me I have to go - whether there is a hint of wind or it's really nuking. When I imagine that I go to my prefered lake respectively to the coast with my windfoil kit with my 1700 cm? foil and ONLY one sail - chances are high that I will cry for weeks than :) Either slogging around for hours or I barely could hold the sail.
So I try to figure out how a quiver could possibly look like so at least I would be prepared for relatively lighter and stronger wind. But of course there are fans of big wings and fans of small wings out there. Most of you prefer smaller front wings I guess.
So one more question: Are there also supporters of really big front wings in light wind? I just red a Balz M?ller (80 kg) interview that he prefers a 2100 cm? front wing (W1100) and a 4.6 - 5 m? wing for super light wind. Is this just another preference or just impossible to pump up if your not world class foiler!? :)
But in the end it makes sense just to start by two wings and one front wing and to evolve from there!
Select to expand quoteWhiteofHeart said..
I think you're overthinking it! Just start out with a 5m wing and +/- 1500 mid-high aspect wing (AR 6.5-7, like the F-One Phantom 1480) and you'll be golden most of your range. Expand from there where necessary. I think a 2000 and 1500 wing would be way to close together. I personally mostly ride my 940cm2 these days, from 13 knots up with the 5m wing and 90kgs. Thinking of switching my Strike V1 5m to 4.0 and 5.5 V2's to get a little more high end and especially easier rotation in tricks.
+1 105kg+ use 5m 90% of the time. 1400 front wing if light, 1150 if strong. Saying that I have 4 wingdings and 4 front foils and 4 tails
Select to expand quoterobinofthehood said..
Thanks a lot for all your answers!
whiteofheart ist probably right when he tells me that I'm overthinking it :)
the problem is that I'm really keen on going out on the water - but I've got too less spare days in this phase of life. So if my the kids allow me I have to go - whether there is a hint of wind or it's really nuking. When I imagine that I go to my prefered lake respectively to the coast with my windfoil kit with my 1700 cm? foil and ONLY one sail - chances are high that I will cry for weeks than :) Either slogging around for hours or I barely could hold the sail.
So I try to figure out how a quiver could possibly look like so at least I would be prepared for relatively lighter and stronger wind. But of course there are fans of big wings and fans of small wings out there. Most of you prefer smaller front wings I guess.
So one more question: Are there also supporters of really big front wings in light wind? I just red a Balz M?ller (80 kg) interview that he prefers a 2100 cm? front wing (W1100) and a 4.6 - 5 m? wing for super light wind. Is this just another preference or just impossible to pump up if your not world class foiler!? :)
But in the end it makes sense just to start by two wings and one front wing and to evolve from there!
robinofthehood - I have 72 kgs and I am currently using two Gong front wings - Fluid XXLT (105 cm span, 1950 cm2 area) and Fluid XLS (86 cm span, 1400 cm2 area).
I used the bigger foil a dozen times and I do like it. It is not such a huge difference in the wind strength I need to get going from the smaller wing but I can definitely feel there is a difference and that I can get on foil with less wind. Of course, that could change with time and experience.
I also read same interview where Balz Muller is mentioning a small board, a medium hand wing and a big foil front wing and that pushed me to get something similar. I am now riding 65 l board, 4.5 m2 wing and 1950 cm2 front wing. In a Blue Planet podcast, Balz Muller mentions that it is better to use a bit bigger board with unstable lake winds (I think it was around his bodyweight, maybe few liters more) so don't be too attached to the interview you mentioned ;)
I tried a few different wings and these make quite a difference to me as a low wind is concerned: my 4.5 is much more rigid and I can pump it easier than my bigger 5.5 or friend's 5.2 so, if you can try before you buy, at least on the ground - try the next wing and you will probably get a feeling if it fits you.
Hi kvek!
So you only ride one board, one wing and two front wings? Which wind range do you've got right now with this combo? And how would you discribe your level as wingfoiler? How many years / how many sessions per year are you out on the water approximately?
RobinOTH, I have an Axis 1300 (1700cm2 area and very HA) and this gets me up in 10 knots pretty easily. I'm 70kg. It pumps brilliantly and is great for getting going in super marginal conditions. I also have a smaller 900 wide (1240cm2) foil which gets going in 11-12 knots, is much faster and more manouverable. I've also got an ART 999 which is ultra smooth and glides for a remarkably long time (12+ knots required to get it flying). I've been using the 1300 constantly for the last year and still love it, but can see myself moving away from it as I improve.
I think in marginal conditions a bigger front foil will be easier to get you up and going. I've heard using the thinner HPS and ART foils to get going in marginal conditions is harder to get flying but once up, their lower friction means they are easier to keep flying. I've been able to glide through 100+m long lulls of sub 8 knots with a 4m wing and the ART 999. And I'm definitely not talented.
10-14 knots - usually 1300 and 5m Slick
12-18 knots - 900 or ART 999 with 4m Unit
15-20 knots - 900 with 3m Unit or windsurf if it's not too patchy.
Select to expand quoterobinofthehood said..
Hi kvek!
So you only ride one board, one wing and two front wings? Which wind range do you've got right now with this combo? And how would you discribe your level as wingfoiler? How many years / how many sessions per year are you out on the water approximately?
Hi robinofthehood,
About my WF experience:
I am a long-time windsurfer and I believe this helped me a lot with my WF progression. I had a first few hours on my friend's equipment a bit less than a year ago and I received my equipment around 10 months ago. I had some 70 sessions in total some 170 hours on that equipment (some of those even in the non-foiling conditions). I can jibe consistently and tack on my stronger side maybe 50%. Every now and then I jump, but not too often. Here is nice drone footage (I am the one with the helmet) so that you can get a better idea: www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/wing-board-Gong-lethal-feedback#2769945
About the equipment:
I used my setup(s) from sub-10 kts to 20-something kts.
In low wind conditions, after I manage to pump on the foil, preferably using some gust, it is quite easy to stay flying as long as there is some wind, a way below 10 kts is quite enough to stay on the foil.
In the strong wind conditions, with a 4.5 wing, it gets a bit too much, that is why I bought a 3.2 wing but was not able to properly test it yet. With the smaller foil and a 4.5 wing, I can foil when windsurfers fully powered ride their wave equipment but can still keep on going when they don't even think about going out. I guess the strongest wind I was riding with this equipment was over 20 kts, maybe nearing 30 kts but I don't know for sure.
I hope that the smaller foil with the new 3.2 wing will keep me comfortably foiling in some 30 kts.
For 3.2 wing, charts say, it should work for me from 20 to 35 kts.
For 4.5 wing, charts say, it should work from 10 to 30 kts.
nice footage, kvek!
Thanks for all your answers. I really appreciate it that!
In the mean time I've got an idea how to start. Bigger front wing and smaller wing for me first. Let's practice pumping ;) And the end of the season here it close. So the 2021 stuff will get way cheaper soon...
So hopefully this thread will help others as well to get a first impression.
Hi robinofthehood,
With hand wing between 4.5 and 5.5 you should be fine. Just do not go too small with wing size because pumping skills take time. On the other hand, I think that big wings are harder to use in the beginning. I guess that the usual advice to start with 5.0 is a good starting point.
After my experience with few wings I tried, I would always select a more rigid one for better pumping.
Enjoy your time on the water and let us know how it goes ;)
The new Slick SLS are pretty dam amazing , I'd just start with a 6m it has a massive wind range and as you improve then get a 4.5 . Board wise definitely easier to start with some volume so you can chug , the Fan 5-4 you picked will be perfect . Foil wise as mentioned above you will end up small avoid those big wings unless you plan to lawn mow in really light winds , they are no good in the ocean on windy days plus jibbing becomes a handful . A bigger Wing Ding to get you up is much better than a bigger foil . So start around 1500 cm2 you'll end up on 1000 or below . Plenty of crew here even the experienced guys are upping their Ding size as the new wing dings now Handel being over powered much better especially the DT Slick SLS .
Given your experience you will improve fast keep that in mind . Just for reference I'm 88 kg I have a 3 , 4.5 & 6 the 6 gets 80% of the work , the 3 yet to come out of the bag . Fan 5-6 ( I can't knee start dud knee) Cabrinha H series 650,800&1000 foils that's it . All my winging is surf or DW based . If you plan in do more flat water DInging I'd add 1200 to that .
