Looking at a new big wing after I feel my older wings have bagged out and lost low end performance (score and mantis)
which wings hold there shapes the longest, which baggout the quickest. expensive kit to be classed as consumables.
Thanks for input.
For Dacron Wings (non-Uluua), you may want to call/mail the manufacturers to know what exact type of Dacron they are using:
www.uksailmakers.com/news/2020/10/12/new-study-shows-the-differences-in-dacrons
Select to expand quotecolas said..
For Dacron Wings (non-Uluua), you may want to call/mail the manufacturers to know what exact type of Dacron they are using:
www.uksailmakers.com/news/2020/10/12/new-study-shows-the-differences-in-dacrons
Aluula only used for leading edge and struts yeh
Select to expand quotergmacca said..
Tubes are ok, it's the canopy that bags out.
Tubes twist and contort too. We recently rebuilt a wing and chopped the cloth out and replaced it. Frame was rooted and deformed.
Unless you're willing to have a custom made out of CZ or something similar, you're always going to have deformation.
Disappointed the noise around the Norths 3Di raw windsurf sails have stalled around wings. That would last a very very long time (you could always order one from them).
Also, taking care of your Dacron is key.
The idea is to make the coating last as much as possible. Once gone, the threads will move around and the sail will bag out.
Avoid as much as possible:
- flapping the sail in the wind
- UV exposure
- tap water (for the chlorine in it)
For Windsurfing, a typical Dacron sail lasted 6 to 12 months before the coating was gone.
I found some discussions in a paragliding forum on people trying to re-apply coating to Dacron sails
www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=22007
Some guy even applied an acrylic primer paint used to waterproof basements...
Note how they measure porosity (rate of water dripping through the cloth) to gauge the efficiency of the coating.
Some use aeroshield:
Select to expand quotecolas said..
Also, taking care of your Dacron is key.
The idea is to make the coating last as much as possible. Once gone, the threads will move around and the sail will bag out.
Avoid as much as possible:
- flapping the sail in the wind
- UV exposure
- tap water (for the chlorine in it)
For Windsurfing, a typical Dacron sail lasted 6 to 12 months before the coating was gone.
I found some discussions in a paragliding forum on people trying to re-apply coating to Dacron sails
www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=22007
Some guy even applied an acrylic primer paint used to waterproof basements...
Note how they measure porosity (rate of water dripping through the cloth) to gauge the efficiency of the coating.
Some use aeroshield:
Interesting read. I think it would be good for manufactures to invest in better canopy materials. I wonder if kite repair company's could offer a viable service to refresh kites with canopy replacements. would not want your Dlab bagged out after a year !
The tube material definitely shags out and gets more stretchy. In addition to the stretchy old canopy material. The front tubes bend and twist. So the wing tips cannot be properly supported which means excessive leech twist. Once the Dacron loses the resin treatment, it has no stiffness along the 45 deg orientation with no fiber to help. Also the front tube bends in the middle so the tips flex inward and the canopy shape gets deeper in the gusts. I think the torsional twisting of the front tube is a bigger problem, but both issues are killer slow for upwind perf.
I've rebuilt the canopies on three 2021 Slick wings using DP's CodeZero material. It took me a while to get the shape how I wanted them. Once the shape was nice, it's obvious how the front tube flex and twist impacts the flying shape under load. Ended up with three full length light battens (middle and each side). 3.5m in a pic below. The battens are excellent for draft stability and the full length middle batten (adj tension) also works like a camber inducer for much more effective pumping. I also implemented a middle draft rope + micro pulley control system for changing depth on the fly, like an outhaul adjuster. Yet to add a cleat, but sure it'll work great.
Learning a practical and low cost solution to retain or restore the stiffness of the tube material will be a game changer for longevity and higher performance. A bonus would be the water repelling features. That Aero Shield product might be really good - anyone tried it? Or has anyone painted a water-based acrylic primer paint on the front tube? I have been considering removing the bladders and heat bonding some carbon fiber tape to the tubes. Pretty sure that'll work. I could additionally do the thin primer/sealer paint or the aero-shield.
DP's CodeZero material is excellent for the canopy. Although it is much more difficult to get a good fit compared to stretchy spinnaker cloth that hides errors during manufacture. Comparing lightly used vs used, when wet, CodeZero is I suspect lighter than the nylon spinnaker cloth, because the tired spin cloth holds a lot of water. I takes some time to build a pattern with desired shape and aligning the aramid fiber with the typical sail-wing load lines.
Iv? been using basic water repellent sprays. ( for tents or clothing ) on my 6m v1 swing for a year now , does a great job , if you put some water on the canopy and see it drip through it is time to spray each side , brings back the faded color also . Lasts about 3 months of normal use then repeat . My gong v1s have not needed any !
My Wasp V1 and Unit V1 both got baggy pretty quick but am surprised by how well my 22' 3m std and 4m Dlab canopies are lasting. Would be 30-40 sessions on each now and both still tight. I think it's the span wise seams on the back half of the canopy acting as load bearers that's helping reduce stretch.
Select to expand quoteEmmett said..
The tube material definitely shags out and gets more stretchy. In addition to the stretchy old canopy material. The front tubes bend and twist. So the wing tips cannot be properly supported which means excessive leech twist. Once the Dacron loses the resin treatment, it has no stiffness along the 45 deg orientation with no fiber to help. Also the front tube bends in the middle so the tips flex inward and the canopy shape gets deeper in the gusts. I think the torsional twisting of the front tube is a bigger problem, but both issues are killer slow for upwind perf.
I've rebuilt the canopies on three 2021 Slick wings using DP's CodeZero material. It took me a while to get the shape how I wanted them. Once the shape was nice, it's obvious how the front tube flex and twist impacts the flying shape under load. Ended up with three full length light battens (middle and each side). 3.5m in a pic below. The battens are excellent for draft stability and the full length middle batten (adj tension) also works like a camber inducer for much more effective pumping. I also implemented a middle draft rope + micro pulley control system for changing depth on the fly, like an outhaul adjuster. Yet to add a cleat, but sure it'll work great.
Learning a practical and low cost solution to retain or restore the stiffness of the tube material will be a game changer for longevity and higher performance. A bonus would be the water repelling features. That Aero Shield product might be really good - anyone tried it? Or has anyone painted a water-based acrylic primer paint on the front tube? I have been considering removing the bladders and heat bonding some carbon fiber tape to the tubes. Pretty sure that'll work. I could additionally do the thin primer/sealer paint or the aero-shield.
DP's CodeZero material is excellent for the canopy. Although it is much more difficult to get a good fit compared to stretchy spinnaker cloth that hides errors during manufacture. Comparing lightly used vs used, when wet, CodeZero is I suspect lighter than the nylon spinnaker cloth, because the tired spin cloth holds a lot of water. I takes some time to build a pattern with desired shape and aligning the aramid fiber with the typical sail-wing load lines.
Wow, that is some work. impressed by your skills, great to think you can refresh old wings.
Thanks guys. It was fun doing it. I learned a lot about the current gen wings and also some basic rules for seam shaping. I also found that tell-tails (wool-tufts) work well, but after a little use, they don't tell you anything about sail air pressure and flow that you cannot feel directly via your hands.
Has anyone used AeroShield, or 303 Marine Fabric Guard, or painted acrylic primer/sealer on their dacron tubes to try to retain or restore stiffness? I can imagine suitable paint could easily make the dacron stiffer than new - for resisting torsional strain and supporting the wing tips.
Curious which fabric exactly you used? Especially the weight per sq yd. Lots of xply materials out there. I felt a reedin wing and it seemed pretty beefy xply. Felt a prototype from another brand that works phenomenally well and it was easily half the thickness, felt like a trash bag thickness almost.
Select to expand quoteJohnnyTsunami said..
Curious which fabric exactly you used? Especially the weight per sq yd. Lots of xply materials out there. I felt a reedin wing and it seemed pretty beefy xply. Felt a prototype from another brand that works phenomenally well and it was easily half the thickness, felt like a trash bag thickness almost.
I used the lightest available in the CodeZero Silver range. Sorry I forget the weight. The Dimension Polyant site would list it. All the weight options in the Silver range have the same thickness fabric material, and same x-ply fiber layup, and only vary in the amount of fiber along the roll. So the lightest option has more than enough stiffness. Probably 50x vs the stiffest spinnaker type cloth. It's very durable material too. Although I try not to crush it, and I roll them up and keep the battens installed.
