*This is a long post.
Disclaimer: I was not paid or asked to write this review. I'm a waterman who enjoys writing, crunching numbers, learning from my data analysis, and sharing knowledge with others. Hopefully you find this write up as useful to your progression as I have to mine.
Pre-review reminder: In my opinion, the most important thing you can to do progress your riding is to learn and identify what kind of rider you are, and want to be. Every foil, wing, and board is going to enhance, or hinder, certain aspects of various rider's styles. Once you know what your style and preferred direction is, equipment data and reviews become much more valuable to you.
Rider skill and style:
I consider myself an intermediate with advanced skills in my stylistic pursuit. After approximately 200 days of wing foiling I still have little to no interest in learning wing tricks or jumping. I prefer fast rail to rail surfing enhanced by my wing or casual/stylish/flowy riding when flagged out riding swell. I learned the basics of DW SUP and further identified that I prefer to foil "down the line" like a surfer on a wave (which is commonly across the wind here), more than I like going straight downwind and surfing back and forth on swell.
Why I bought this board:
I have a very strong preference for riding small wings and foils. I wanted a board that was going to help me ride winds lulling below 10 knots with a wing no larger than my 4.2m and foils smaller than my 1000. At the time of purchase I needed my 1150 in order to ride winds that light. At the extreme high end, I wanted a board that was fast on the water to allow for tiny foils and 2m wings to be used in winds in 40-60 knots. My previous board really needed an 850cm foil underneath, even in the most extreme winds.
Foils and wings used were all Cloud IX fs range unless otherwise noted. I have an 8.5 aspect ratio on all my foils except the fs900 which is 10.1.
The Basics:
Sunova does a good job of giving info on shape, design, dims, goal, intended rider, all of that great stuff on their website. I highly recommend you look there for all of your basic information on this board.
sunovasurfboards.com/en/legends/casey/carver
Testing Data:
Board information:
85l Sunova Carver. 5'10"x20" and 4.89kg. No footstrap inserts, vapor construction, both of which are free alterations. (standard construction and footstraps bring expected weight to 6kg).
Note on alterations: Sunova will customize nearly anything you want on their boards for what I consider to be very reasonable prices.
Previously, I came from owning four consecutive Kalama boards:
5'10"x28.875" 123l e3
4'8"x26" 83l e3
8'x21" 111l Barracuda
5'3"x22" 83l e3
I also did quick single ride demos on approximately 10 other boards in the last year ranging from 40-80l.
Rider weight: 99kgs with a soaked winter wetsuit and impact vest on. 82kgs in summer with boardshorts (untested at the lighter weight).
Total time spent in flight on the Carver for this review: 12.5 hours
Wind and water notes: It's cold in the Gorge right now. Water temps are around 39 degrees and air temps are usually in the 40's when I'm riding. Winds have a tendency to be gusty this time of year (20 knot range). I tested a mix of extreme east and mild west winds.
Lightest lulls: 6 knots west wind, east current with my 1000, Catalyst, 76cm mast, and 4.2m SLE.
Lightest average wind speed: 10 knots west wind, east current with my 1000, Catalyst, 76cm mast, and 4.2m SLE.
Strongest gust: 43 knots east wind, east current with 900, Catalyst, 76cm mast, and 2.5m OR Glide A wing.
Strongest average wind speed: 35 knots east wind, east current with 900, Catalyst, 76cm mast, and 2.5m OR Glide A wing.
Foils tested: 700, 850, 900, 1000, 1150. All with Catalyst stab. 66cm and 76cm masts were used.
Wings tested: 4.2m and 3.5m Cloud IX plus 3m and 2.5m Ocean Rodeo Glide A.
Foil selection leading up to Carver purchase: Almost 100% use of my 850 for 20 straight sessions leading up to the my first on the Carver.
Foil selection since acquiring the Carver: 850, 700, 700, 700, 700, 1150, 1000, 900, 900, 900 (900 is a new 10.1 AR vs the 8.5 of others and takes off in between the 700 and 850).
Narrative:
Getting new equipment in the middle of the winter is always a little nerve racking. We have extreme winds and painfully cold temps so changing your kit when the weather isn't all fun in the sun can be stressful. However, my first day out I rigged pretty aggressively and had light winds for my first rides. I was delighted to be riding my 850 with a 4.2m wing in 13 knots of west wind with lulls down to 9 knots in swirling storm winds and rain (this normally required my 1150). My second day was just as light, and I was able to ride my 700.
On those first days I immediately I noticed that while the board is undeniably quick on the water, the most impressive thing was its release. There is something about the hull shape that feels incredibly "not sticky." Better than any hull I've personally ridden. In light wind where my last board would occasionally grab and throw me over the nose when trying to pump onto foil, the Carver keeps driving forward and releasing water when I pump (is this because of the "flat to flipped nose" rocker?) Most excitingly, it's snappier in the air than my 5'3"x22" 83l Kalama e3 at 5.23kg. This board LOVES to carve rail to rail, better than any I've ever experienced. I expect this is due to a combination of being .34kg lighter, 2" narrower, and having a more pointed/lower profile nose. Plus, despite being 7" longer in total length, the Carver only shows 2.5" more nose in front of the mast. My mast is positioned just barely in front of center in the box. I could theoretically try to nudge it forward to decrease this even more. All of this adds up to a sporty comparison to my last board. Match all of that with the fact that it activates a smaller foil with the same effort and wind and you can see the performance benefits are piling up.
I continued to click through more sessions on the Carver in various conditions. Light winds to heavy with foils from 700-1150. With each session the Carver had me consistently out on wings that were up to 2 full sizes smaller than others on the water as well as foils as much as 500cm smaller than other riders out with me.
I very quickly found myself gravitating to my two foils with the highest takeoff requirements (700 and 900) and am pleased with the way this board performs when using both of them. The vapor Carver has enough weight that you still feel a natural drive and flow to your riding when turning rail to rail, top to bottom, on swell of all sizes. I really like this. Feeling the board push back and return to my feet with just enough pressure to ensure me it's still along for the ride and ready for the next turn is confidence inspiring. The narrow design of the board keeps all of its weight well balanced underfoot despite plenty of big frontside and backside tip breaches at wind speeds from 10-40 knots. Coming from SUP surfing I'm comfortable moving my feet on the board while in flight and the Carver welcomes this without issue. Touchdowns are practically inconsequential as the shape, length, and weight of the board make it skip off the water.
For the novice to intermediate riders: First off, Sunova recommends this board for intermediate to pro level riders and I think that is accurate. Why? I assume because this board is going to feel tippy if compared to the traditional beginner boards, especially in light winds. If you are considering moving to a narrow board, make sure your water starts are fast. No casual knee starts where you flip your wing into position and hold it in one hand. If your wing is in the air, your hands had better be on the handles.
Also worth noting for beginners: I've always felt like switching feet was easier on a narrow board. First, it's harder to get your feet into the wrong position. Second, the drive and longer weight distribution in front of and behind the foil feels like it buys you an extra second of time while also forcing correct decisions. So, if you are at all nervous about this element I would tell you that I, personally, find foot switches easier on boards like this. I tested the Carver with my 700 and 66cm mast, my twitchiest and least stable kit, and there were no issues on gybes and foot switches.
For intermediate to advanced riders: This board is going to give you the freedom to access the smallest foils and wings in your quiver. Along with that, it has incredible performance in the air that will not slow your foils down. I've found that I prefer having a little bit of board length when performing my most aggressive turns which lends itself well to getting board feedback while you are laid over and quickly going rail to rail.
Above all else the following questions/statements in regard to stability are the most inquired about:
1. "The Carver will be too tippy in choppy waters. You'll never be able to water start it when it's really windy."
Response: I, personally, have not had issues. I was riding 21" and 22" boards before this (130 sessions worth). Yes, this board is tippy if you are slow to get your wing in the air and hands in position. Expect this board to command you to speed up your water starts. Don't be confused thinking this is aimed at light winds. It is a high performance board and what you lose in a handful of water starts is gained back many times over by the use of smaller foils and wings.
2. Do you think this is a good choice as a light wind board?
Answer: It can perform well in light winds. However, this board is at its worst for stability in light wind. If you don't have wind in your sail, you very well might just tip over, I know I have. I would say its ability to slog is poor. If you are an experienced light wind rider this board will give you high end performance in light winds. If you are a novice who is exploring light winds and narrow boards I think you would be best suited with a shortened, downwind board like the Aviator Downwind 22.5. This will give you FAR more stability in ultralight winds, will allow you to use tiny wings and foils, and will allow you to grow into the Carver down the road. If you want a dedicated light wind only board, again, I would consider a small DW board that will give you the performance gains matched with nice slog your way home stability.
Board Driven Accomplishments:
1. I don't think I ever expected to be on foil with my 700 under 10 knots using a normal sized wing board. A full DW board, yes. My 850, yes. However, I have now had multiple sessions where the average wind speed was 12-13 knots with the lulls below 10 knots and the Carver enabled me to use my 700 with 4.2m SLE without a hitch.
2. In extreme winds, I was immediately able to start using my 700 by upgrading to this board (2m wings are incredibly sensitive and you need a fast board to use them if the winds are gusty). My 700, as well as my high aspect 900, both have harder takeoffs but are so efficient moving through the water that without them, winging in 40-55 knots is just miserable. The intricacies of high wind riding are many and deserve an entire write up on their own.
To get the most out of this board:
Plan to buy a smaller foil and use smaller wings. If you are buying this board purely to get easier water starts with your same wing and foil, yes, you will experience that. However, you will be selling this board short. Don't look at it as a casual upgrade. Look at it as a full quiver transition. This board will beg for a high performance foil and will really show you it's full potential when you give it that.
Summary:
The Carver has immediately met my goal of using smaller wings and foils at both the light, and heavy wind levels. It is currently my all time favorite board and the only thing I would consider changing if I was ordering another would be to put some custom graphics on it. I would also be intrigued to try a vapor 6'2"x20" 95l Carver in the future purely for comparison. I'd like to see how its stability and slogging feels. I'd also be interested to see how much faster it feels on the water. I do not see the need for any other board in my personal quiver.
How to order:
Sunova has dealers worldwide so everyone has a way to get ahold of their boards. I wanted some customizations on mine so I reached out to Christian, the owner of Poseidon Paddle and Surf in Santa Monica California. Their website shows them carrying what looks to be the entire lineup of Sunova surfboards, sups, and foilboards which gave me confidence that they would nail my order. The ordering process was smooth despite my requested alterations. My board showed up faster than expected and I have nothing but great things to say about Poseidon as a shop, Christian as the owner, and Sunova as a company.
www.poseidonstandup.com/products/sunova-carver-foil-board?_pos=3&_sid=6ce4c76c9&_ss=r
Thank you:
Huge thanks to Sunova for bringing this board into production as well as thanks to Marcus Tardrew for designing it. Big thanks to all my friends and riding buddies who make the coldest winter conditions so much more enjoyable.
Hope to see you on the water,
Bryan Lee
incredible review.
really. thank you so much for spending the time writing it. It is by far the most informative review I've read and really helped narrowing down my choice.
Thanks again
Select to expand quoteFaff said..
Surely the wetsuit doesn't weigh 17 kg?
Wetsuit, impact vest, harness, all soaking wet. That's what the scale says. Select to expand quoteSlowlyButSurely said..
incredible review.
really. thank you so much for spending the time writing it. It is by far the most informative review I've read and really helped narrowing down my choice.
Thanks again
Glad to hear!
I also have Carver 5'10" 85L but I weight 74dry and live in the tropics so this board float me well.
I foil in open sea so the condition is different. In light wind where there are less chops, the board is easier to balance and start than in high wind and high chops. But this is minor everyone will adjust to this in less than session.
For me and my condition this board work well as a light wind board. My 7'2"x18" 103L DW board may a bit easier to get up in lightest wind but I think Carver do the job very well much better than the square board.
Select to expand quoteTaeyeony said..
I also have Carver 5'10" 85L but I weight 74dry and live in the tropics so this board float me well.
I foil in open sea so the condition is different. In light wind where there are less chops, the board is easier to balance and start than in high wind and high chops. But this is minor everyone will adjust to this in less than session.
For me and my condition this board work well as a light wind board. My 7'2"x18" 103L DW board may a bit easier to get up in lightest wind but I think Carver do the job very well much better than the square board.
I have to eat my words a bit. I had an extremely light wind session today. Gauges were down unfortunately but it was so darn calm that I did spend a bit of time slogging here and there. When it was this extremely calm, I did find my balance. It may have been the big foil though, that helps.
Well under 10 knots
4.2m wing
98kg rider
85l carver
Cloud IX fs1780 foil with Catalyst.
66cm mast.
www.instagram.com/reel/C3q5CjnP3P4/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
That's encouraging! I'm similar weight to you BWalnut, so hoping the extra float of my 95l will make it a viable option in light wind with 6m wing and either HPS1050 (if really light) or art999
Select to expand quoteStretchy said..
That's encouraging! I'm similar weight to you BWalnut, so hoping the extra float of my 95l will make it a viable option in light wind with 6m wing and either HPS1050 (if really light) or art999
You'll be great on it! I bet the 6'2" will be a lightning bolt.
I don't know the axis numbers well but if yesterdays experience was any proof of it this is a board you can grow into and get better and better lightwind results to match with the everyday and high end results!
B, thanks much. This is great info, especially for those like me moving up from our first wing board. Would you agree that it's a good idea to remind folks not familiar with the Gorge that a west wind speed should be adjusted upward by approximately 3 knots to account for the current?
Thanks and keep info coming!
Select to expand quotemarc5 said..
B, thanks much. This is great info, especially for those like me moving up from our first wing board. Would you agree that it's a good idea to remind folks not familiar with the Gorge that a west wind speed should be adjusted upward by approximately 3 knots to account for the current?
Thanks and keep info coming!
Thanks Marc!
That's a really great point and I appreciate that you noticed my commentary on west vs east wind. I do not know the exact impact that it has for adjusting and it varies depending on time of year and water levels. A quick google search gives me the following: At its slowest, the river is moving at 340 cubic meters per second from the east to the west (I would assume this is middle of summer). At its most, the river is moving 35,000 cubic meters per second (I would expect this is the spring snow melt). This is a HUGE variance. On a west wind day the east current pushes you into the wind, effectively increasing the overall knots you are experiencing in your sail at takeoff. The more efficient your foil, the less you feel that in the air. At the most basic level you should expect assistance from the current with west winds.
(note, this flow is also a part of what makes DW runs so easy to learn here. You paddle up, ride down wind, fall in the water, and the river takes you back to the start. Too easy!)
On an east wind day the river flow is moving with the wind. This effectively takes away from the windspeed in your sail when your board is in the water. This is also part of what makes east winds more hazardous. You can get blown and swept down wind quickly if you aren't on top of your water starts. At the most basic level you should expect hindrance from the current with east winds.
We also have tidal effect at a few spots in the gorge. I haven't spent much time winging them (Rooster is impacted by the tide but it's usually extreme winds and a full two hour drive from the ocean so it's less) but as a kitesurfer the impact was enough to end your session immediately when the tide would flip from outgoing to incoming.
The carver looks and sounds great. I found similar shape and size boards just work great. I had the dims copied for custom board. My 5'10"x 20 x 85 ltr has become my go to board in most conditions. Haven't used my 75 and 60 ltr short wide boards much since I got it. I will probably replace my 75 and 60 ltr boards with a 55-65 ltr longer narrower and longer tail behind tracks shape. Yes, full wet winter gear with helmet floatation aid vest weighs a ton.
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..
...With each session the Carver had me consistently out on wings that were up to 2 full sizes smaller than others on the water as well as foils as much as 500cm smaller than other riders out with me.
Great review. The ability to use smaller wings and foils is amazing and a bit puzzling, but something that's been reported by others on narrow long boards, too. I'd like to understand why that is better, so I'll throw out some ideas. With a short and wide board, there's a lot of drag around 3-4 knots (partly due to bow wave/hull speed issues). We need to overcome this to get to 8-10 knots, so the foil provides enough lift. That requires a larger wing and foil than while foiling. Part of this is due to apparent wind. In 10 knots of true wind, the apparent wind increases by 31% when accelerating from 4 to 10 knots board speed. Foil power is proportional to the square of apparent wind speed, so it goes up by 70%. A beginner that does not know how to pump at all will need huge gear to get foiling; an expert can increase the apparent wind on the wing by pumping.
Smaller foils have less drag, which reduces drag while accelerating, and allow for a higher board speed when foiling. That again increases apparent wind; for example, going from 10 to 12 knot board speed in 10 knots true wind increases wing power by 20%. By reducing the drag before foiling, and basically enabling a higher "hull speed" (even though using this term here is a bit questionable), the winger on a long, narrow board gets into a bit of a positive feedback loop that allows for smaller gear, more speed, and more fun.
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..BWalnut said..
...With each session the Carver had me consistently out on wings that were up to 2 full sizes smaller than others on the water as well as foils as much as 500cm smaller than other riders out with me.
Great review. The ability to use smaller wings and foils is amazing and a bit puzzling, but something that's been reported by others on narrow long boards, too. I'd like to understand why that is better, so I'll throw out some ideas. With a short and wide board, there's a lot of drag around 3-4 knots (partly due to bow wave/hull speed issues). We need to overcome this to get to 8-10 knots, so the foil provides enough lift. That requires a larger wing and foil than while foiling. Part of this is due to apparent wind. In 10 knots of true wind, the apparent wind increases by 31% when accelerating from 4 to 10 knots board speed. Foil power is proportional to the square of apparent wind speed, so it goes up by 70%. A beginner that does not know how to pump at all will need huge gear to get foiling; an expert can increase the apparent wind on the wing by pumping.
Smaller foils have less drag, which reduces drag while accelerating, and allow for a higher board speed when foiling. That again increases apparent wind; for example, going from 10 to 12 knot board speed in 10 knots true wind increases wing power by 20%. By reducing the drag before foiling, and basically enabling a higher "hull speed" (even though using this term here is a bit questionable), the winger on a long, narrow board gets into a bit of a positive feedback loop that allows for smaller gear, more speed, and more fun.
Really interesting comment Boardsurfr. Sounds like you've done a deep dive into this. Where do the numbers all come from?
Does this mean that as boards become faster and your technique increases, foils simply need less lift and can focus on providing minimal drag which increases in air performance?
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..
Where do the numbers all come from?
The speed numbers come from looking at GPS tracks from winging. Apparent wind numbers come from a spreadsheet. I took 10 knots as the wind speed since that's Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..
Does this mean that as boards become faster and your technique increases, foils simply need less lift and can focus on providing minimal drag which increases in air performance?
Yes, foils for faster board (or better technique) need less lift at a given speed.
Say your traditional board reaches 4 knots on the water (with some pumping), and a narrow and long board reaches 6 knots. If you want the same lift from the foil, then the lift you need for the DW board at 4 knots can be more than 2 times less than on the traditional board, since the lift it gives at 6 knots is (6/4)^2 = 2.25 x more than what it gives at 4 knots.
This is a bit like speed optimizing software. After you look for a bottleneck and optimize it, another bottleneck will pop up. So after optimizing the board drag, foil drag becomes a bigger factor. Optimize both, and you may find that suddenly the mast becomes a factor; examples are wingers pushing Axis alu masts to their limits, or switching to high performance or custom carbon masts.
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..BWalnut said..
Where do the numbers all come from?
The speed numbers come from looking at GPS tracks from winging. Apparent wind numbers come from a spreadsheet. I took 10 knots as the wind speed since that's BWalnut said..
Does this mean that as boards become faster and your technique increases, foils simply need less lift and can focus on providing minimal drag which increases in air performance?
Yes, foils for faster board (or better technique) need less lift at a given speed.
Say your traditional board reaches 4 knots on the water (with some pumping), and a narrow and long board reaches 6 knots. If you want the same lift from the foil, then the lift you need for the DW board at 4 knots can be more than 2 times less than on the traditional board, since the lift it gives at 6 knots is (6/4)^2 = 2.25 x more than what it gives at 4 knots.
This is a bit like speed optimizing software. After you look for a bottleneck and optimize it, another bottleneck will pop up. So after optimizing the board drag, foil drag becomes a bigger factor. Optimize both, and you may find that suddenly the mast becomes a factor; examples are wingers pushing Axis alu masts to their limits, or switching to high performance or custom carbon masts.
I think that skill has larger impact than all of the above. I see people in small gear flying around earlier and going faster than intermediate people with the latest narrow board, a larger foil and wing. You can not buy good technique.
Select to expand quotebolocom said..
I think that skill has larger impact than all of the above. I see people in small gear flying around earlier and going faster than intermediate people with the latest narrow board, a larger foil and wing. You can not buy good technique.
Sure, a GWA competitor can go out on a 450 cm2 foil and a 45 l board in 14 knots. But 99% of foilers will never reach this level of skill.
The vast majority of foilers out there on the water have intermediate to advanced skills that do not change much within a year. For them, choosing the correct board and foil can make a huge difference in fun and learning. There's plenty of wingers out there in their 60s and 70s who'll never have the energy of teenage GWA pros to pump up on a tiny board. Detailed reviews like the one Bryan gave here are very useful for those of us who are not super-talented. Understanding why something works well, or not so well, can be rather helpful. I followed common advice to downsize my board since that would "make jibing easier". That set me back many months, with plenty of unpleasant sessions, before I realized that slower turns and more volume and length to allow recovery from jibe attempts without crashes work much better for me. I have a friend who has an even harder time learning basic wing things that some talented young guys breeze through in a few sessions; part of her suffering was due to poor advice based on limited understanding. Based in poor advice, she bought several 2000-2400cm2 front wings, which perhaps are a good choice for your average 90 kg beginner; for a 50 kg retiree, it's just an unmanageable beast.
Bryan's report that he could immediately downsize his front wing from 1150 to 850, while also using a smaller wing, by going to the board he reviewed is very interesting; others have reported similar experiences. It's relevant at any skill level - even GWA guys with extreme skills face problems when in too big a wing for the conditions. For beginners, this may not seem relevant right now, but I have the feeling that beginner gear will change, too, and that in a few years, we'll look back at current beginner boards and wonder how anyone ever learned on those.
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..BWalnut said..
Where do the numbers all come from?
The speed numbers come from looking at GPS tracks from winging. Apparent wind numbers come from a spreadsheet. I took 10 knots as the wind speed since that's BWalnut said..
Does this mean that as boards become faster and your technique increases, foils simply need less lift and can focus on providing minimal drag which increases in air performance?
Yes, foils for faster board (or better technique) need less lift at a given speed.
Say your traditional board reaches 4 knots on the water (with some pumping), and a narrow and long board reaches 6 knots. If you want the same lift from the foil, then the lift you need for the DW board at 4 knots can be more than 2 times less than on the traditional board, since the lift it gives at 6 knots is (6/4)^2 = 2.25 x more than what it gives at 4 knots.
This is a bit like speed optimizing software. After you look for a bottleneck and optimize it, another bottleneck will pop up. So after optimizing the board drag, foil drag becomes a bigger factor. Optimize both, and you may find that suddenly the mast becomes a factor; examples are wingers pushing Axis alu masts to their limits, or switching to high performance or custom carbon masts.
Phenomenal information and insight. I really appreciate you sharing all of that.
The bottleneck idea is a great way of describing it. I've been progressively experiencing this with higher and higher performance equipment over time but I hadn't quite considered how it all played together. I've undoubtedly written that "if you get a faster board, you need to upgrade your foils" but I didn't have a good description of why.
Thank you so much for helping to clear up some of the theory on this. I'll be able to look at it with new eyes now!
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..
Sure, a GWA competitor can go out on a 450 cm2 foil and a 45 l board in 14 knots. But 99% of foilers will never reach this level of skill.
The vast majority of foilers out there on the water have intermediate to advanced skills that do not change much within a year. For them, choosing the correct board and foil can make a huge difference in fun and learning. There's plenty of wingers out there in their 60s and 70s who'll never have the energy of teenage GWA pros to pump up on a tiny board. Detailed reviews like the one Bryan gave here are very useful for those of us who are not super-talented. Understanding why something works well, or not so well, can be rather helpful. I followed common advice to downsize my board since that would "make jibing easier". That set me back many months, with plenty of unpleasant sessions, before I realized that slower turns and more volume and length to allow recovery from jibe attempts without crashes work much better for me. I have a friend who has an even harder time learning basic wing things that some talented young guys breeze through in a few sessions; part of her suffering was due to poor advice based on limited understanding. Based in poor advice, she bought several 2000-2400cm2 front wings, which perhaps are a good choice for your average 90 kg beginner; for a 50 kg retiree, it's just an unmanageable beast.
Bryan's report that he could immediately downsize his front wing from 1150 to 850, while also using a smaller wing, by going to the board he reviewed is very interesting; others have reported similar experiences. It's relevant at any skill level - even GWA guys with extreme skills face problems when in too big a wing for the conditions. For beginners, this may not seem relevant right now, but I have the feeling that beginner gear will change, too, and that in a few years, we'll look back at current beginner boards and wonder how anyone ever learned on those.
Yes, even James Casey who's beyond all of us was interviewed saying that he liked how the long narrow boards were allowing him to ride smaller foils and wings.
Here's a little more historical breakdown:
5'10"x28.875" 123l e3 - This was the first board I owned and the smallest foil I ever rode with it was the Takuma 1210.
Smallest foil used: Takuma 1210
4'8"x26" 83l e3 - This was my second board and the smallest foil I ever rode with it was the Takuma 1210. I decided to quit winging after getting this board.
Smallest foil used: Takuma 1210
8'x21" 111l Barracuda - This was my third board. I bought it so I could quit winging and planned to switch to DW SUPfoiling. However, My first week on this board I was able to ride the Cloud IX fs700 (not with power and finesse but I was straight up onto foil). This opened my eyes to what a changed board shape could do.
Smallest foil used: fs550
5'3"x22" 83l e3 - Fourth board and one that brought me back into the realm of normal board sizes. I got a good amount of flack for winging the Barracuda as long as I did but I don't regret it at all. I learned SO MUCH on that DW board and it prepared me for this one. Smallest foil used: 850
6'2"x20" 85l Custom - Unfortunately this board was heat damaged horribly. I took it out for a ride before tossing it in the dumpster and it was crazy fast on the water. Wish I could have ridden it more.
5'10"x20"x85l Carver - Fifth board and highest performance of everything I've had. Has me convinced I'd never consider riding something short again. The massive enjoyment of this board has me over the moon for this size.
Smallest foil used: fs700
I want to point out the foil progression when looking at a few of the liters and excluding shapes:
83l - Smallest foil Takuma 1210. Lightwind foil Takuma 1500
83l - Smallest foil fs850. Lightwind foil fs1150
85l - Smallest foil (so far) fs700. Lightwind foil fs850
I was very intentional about not changing liters as I tested over the last few years. I wanted data that we could all observe and quantify as best possible. As you can see, if you don't consider board shape, the progression is shocking. However, when you add in the dims and see that the board aspect ratio has changed the efficiency of the kit is revealed.
BAR 2.15 - Smallest foil Takuma 1210. Lightwind foil Takuma 1500
BAR 2.86 - Smallest foil fs850. Lightwind foil fs1150
BAR 3.5 - Smallest foil (so far) fs700. Lightwind foild fs850
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..bolocom said..
I think that skill has larger impact than all of the above. I see people in small gear flying around earlier and going faster than intermediate people with the latest narrow board, a larger foil and wing. You can not buy good technique.
Sure, a GWA competitor can go out on a 450 cm2 foil and a 45 l board in 14 knots. But 99% of foilers will never reach this level of skill.
The vast majority of foilers out there on the water have intermediate to advanced skills that do not change much within a year. For them, choosing the correct board and foil can make a huge difference in fun and learning. There's plenty of wingers out there in their 60s and 70s who'll never have the energy of teenage GWA pros to pump up on a tiny board. Detailed reviews like the one Bryan gave here are very useful for those of us who are not super-talented. Understanding why something works well, or not so well, can be rather helpful. I followed common advice to downsize my board since that would "make jibing easier". That set me back many months, with plenty of unpleasant sessions, before I realized that slower turns and more volume and length to allow recovery from jibe attempts without crashes work much better for me. I have a friend who has an even harder time learning basic wing things that some talented young guys breeze through in a few sessions; part of her suffering was due to poor advice based on limited understanding. Based in poor advice, she bought several 2000-2400cm2 front wings, which perhaps are a good choice for your average 90 kg beginner; for a 50 kg retiree, it's just an unmanageable beast.
Bryan's report that he could immediately downsize his front wing from 1150 to 850, while also using a smaller wing, by going to the board he reviewed is very interesting; others have reported similar experiences. It's relevant at any skill level - even GWA guys with extreme skills face problems when in too big a wing for the conditions. For beginners, this may not seem relevant right now, but I have the feeling that beginner gear will change, too, and that in a few years, we'll look back at current beginner boards and wonder how anyone ever learned on those.
I am just saying that there are many variables. My experience was the opposite of yours, small gear made everything easier. Every time I went smaller things got easier, and I am 53 and 88kg. I had a "small" dw board, 6? x 110L and it really wasn't for me, I thought it was harder to ride than my 60l board, specially powered up.
I do agree than it light wind they go on foil incredibly early, but I also think that people should work and focus more on technique than gear. If you have a poop stance, you will always struggle regardless of gear. A larger board will mask it but not fix it. We ride foils, once you are up, the smaller the board the more feel over the foil, hence everything easier. Obviously the right gear helps, and with so many options you can get it all wrong. But if you don't do anything too extreme, board +20L to learn, then go to your weight in L, you will be fine. Same with foils, keep it simple and nothing to extreme. Work on your technique until you become efficient and your gear feels large and slow. Then you will want a small board, a long mast, high aspect foil, prob just 2, and depending where you live a dw board for light day. The small board - 20 to - 30 and the shape based on what you are into. Freestyle, tricks, jumping, speed etc.or just cruising.
Boardsurfer your insight into what board works well for you resonates with me. I have been using my 7' DW board for winging for a couple of months & find it great for me at the moment. The reason is, as a novice/interemediate winger I've only just starting linking gybes & have spent a season blowing gybes & spending a lot of time in the water. The biggest overall benefit I've found from the accumulation of the different traits of the DW shape is the energy I save getting started again. I don't have that breathlessness from extended periods of wing pumping. I also have that confidence that when standing up the front won't nosedive (as much) like my short board. Weirdly I also find it easier to climb onto than my short board.
I don't necessarily agree I can use smaller wings or foils with it - if the winds not there I drop off my foil like the other local experienced good guys on sinker boards. As Bolcom says they can get up & moving with their sinker boards just as easily as I can on my big board as they are far more efficient with technique.
Although I have never tried a sinker board & don't necessarily know what I'm missing, at this stage of my winging I can't see a reason why to change. Although it isn't lightweight, my board carves very well, feels small when riding & at this stage is far more capable than I am. I'm glad these longer skinnier boards have evolved as I feel they are a great style of board for those wanting to progress from their beginner set ups. However as my skills progress I may get to the stage where I don't want to lug a big board over the rocks & wrestle it through the shorebreak so once again it's great for me at the moment.
The new gear makes a HUGE difference. If I had learned on the current thin foils, long and skinny boards, and more efficient wings I would have learned and progressed So Much Faster. I wanted to learn how to wingfoil, but i had to learn separately how to pump the wing and how to pump the board before the foiling started. Now I know how to pump both but I certainly don't enjoy it haha. I'd rather sheet in and be launched onto foil, as happens now with my long skinny board and thin foils. Modern designs have boxes more centered, swing weight increase is negligible. Stick with short fat boards and wild pumping if you like, most of us will be gliding with far less effort on longer skinny boards!
Select to expand quoteMicrosurfer said..
The biggest overall benefit I've found from the accumulation of the different traits of the DW shape is the energy I save getting started again.
I don't necessarily agree I can use smaller wings or foils with it.
Although I have never tried a sinker board & don't necessarily know what I'm missing, at this stage of my winging I can't see a reason why to change. Select to expand quoteFoilColorado said..
The new gear makes a HUGE difference. If I had learned on the current thin foils, long and skinny boards, and more efficient wings I would have learned and progressed So Much Faster.
Good comments and direction for sure.
Something worth considering:
The people on little sinker boards are highly experienced. They might not be pro's but they've put their time in to learn and progress down to that gear and have figured out how to make it work. As such, they usually want to stick with that style of gear. Truly, we were all told the goal is to ride shorter boards and lower liters. I'm pretty sure we were all told that for the first few years of winging.
For the new boards:
We simply don't have several years of data and mainstream riding to show the proof of what these boards can do. These boards are less than a year old and a fraction of the wing community even has access to them. At this point the narrow boards are still new and mainstream manufacturers are slowly shifting that direction but they can't completely abandon their old designs, they still gotta sell that inventory! I've got 150 sessions in on the new boards at this point so I've really gotten a good feel for them. My skills on a narrow board are better than a novice on a narrow board. So yes, skill and performance is still a spectrum. For me, I'm searching for peak performance now and I don't intend to slow down on the hunt. My question for myself is simply which direction should I go next? Longer? Narrower? Change volume? It's uncharted territory but I'm having a blast and am excited for everyone else who is joining in the experience with me!
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..
The people on little sinker boards are highly experienced. They might not be pro's but they've put their time in to learn and progress down to that gear and have figured out how to make it work. As such, they usually want to stick with that style of gear.
Once you reached that level, there may simply be no incentive to switch. Very good wingers can pump up in very light wind, and they can stay on the foil for an entire session, even with big lulls, if they choose to do so. They are on tiny boards and usually can throw pretty radical turns, so they may well feel any increased swing weight much more than "average" wingers. My wife (who, very unlike me, is in the "expert" category) tried one DW board, and came away unimpressed. But she has no problem foiling on 50 l / 4.2 in 10 knots.
Another friend currently uses a DW board, but stated repeatedly that she did not feel a lot of difference compared to here traditional board. She is closer to the beginner end of the spectrum (working on jibes). But she is also quite light, very fit, reasonably good at pumping, and on relatively large, lower aspect foils. So she can usually get going in relatively light wind, and her foil setup may further limit any gains towards less wind since it's a bit draggy. Others may see larger advantages: heavier wingers; those living in light wind locations; and those further along the learning curve, but not yet fully comfortably with very small gear.
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..
Once you reached that level, there may simply be no incentive to switch. Very good wingers can pump up in very light wind, and they can stay on the foil for an entire session, even with big lulls, if they choose to do so. They are on tiny boards and usually can throw pretty radical turns, so they may well feel any increased swing weight much more than "average" wingers. My wife (who, very unlike me, is in the "expert" category) tried one DW board, and came away unimpressed. But she has no problem foiling on 50 l / 4.2 in 10 knots.
I agree with you. Expert level riders who have developed the skill likely wont want, need, desire to change. I'm also not sure how much smaller of a wing we can all really expect to use in 10 knots? 4.2m is what I use there as well. My 3.5m is pretty good in light winds but when I reach the 3m size there's a distinctly "not a light wind tool" feel to those size wings.
What board and dims is your wife riding?
One thing that I have noticed in this board evolution is that advanced riders who grab a 13-15lbs DW board and take it out aren't impressed, nor should they be. Sadly, I've seen many of them take an 8' downwind board out with a 1440 dw foil and it's like riding a tank. They refuse to try it with a smaller foil but still, what's the point for them? I think the midlength boards are what I want to focus on for the intermediate to advanced riders. For the most advanced riders, I would assume they are already on a pretty narrow board, it's just short and low volume.
I will say, the swing weight experience is different on a narrow board vs a wide board. I actually prefer the feel of the swing weight on a narrow board vs the feel of a "zero" swing weight board. This, of course, all comes down to personal preferences right? Just like in kiteboarding we had people on twin tips, surfboards, foils, and everyone was aiming for a different experience. Traditional surf too, longboards, midlengths, shortboards, SUPs. Same thing is coming down the chute with winging where there doesn't have to be a singular board path for people to go down and it makes it that much more exciting and inclusive for a wide variety of riders. Plus, as there are evolutions in design for every discipline of foiling, it will bleed over to make things better for the neighboring disciplines. Synergy.
