This is the choice I'm most stuck on: which front wing to start with, and I doubt I'm alone on this...
I'm OK, treating this as something I'll transition out of, and perhaps keep for light days or teaching wife/friends, but still, I'd like to make it EASY without shortening the window of use too much. I'm also just interested in what people's experience/advice is as the technology develops (and hope it might help others)...
Me:
55yo
65kg, pretty good balance and athletic ability, but no star
Water: Flat inland lakes (Snake River Plain of Idaho)
Wind - lots of 10-13MPH days, with a fair amount of 18-28MPH days
Aspirations: back and forth with confidence in all conditions w/solid gybes; some occasional swell riding eventually(?)
Experience:
- a few years of windsurfing, and a fair amount if dinghy sailing in my past
- just took 2 days of lessons on the gulf, got fairly comfortable flying the wing & balancing on a big board. Got up on foil with the wing just a bit (Slingshot I99); got up on efoil a fair amount (Lift 200 Surf V2 with 38 surf stab), never totally steady.
Instructor recommended the lift Surf 250 V2 with big (48) stab as one good option, as I like the simplicity of the Lift system (mmm.carbon).
But, I could use more input on the following options for my first setup:
Lift Surf 250 V2 (1610cm2, 4.6 AR)
or. the Surf 300 V2 (at 1935cm2, 4.1 AR)
Takuma Helium 1750 (1750cm2, 4.5 AR)
Slingshot PFI 835/710 (2030cm2, 3.8AR?)
Axis BCS 1060 (1803cm2, 6.5AR)
Or.the 1120 (2102cm2, 6.25AR)
Armstrong CF 2400 (3.93AR ?)
Or .the HS1850 (4.78AR ?)
Or.the rumored new CF 2050 (?!)
Not against other options, but this seems like a big enough range at the moment.Let it fly!
The argument for Armstrong (from a beginner): It may be best to start with something like the HS1850 or CF2400 just so you can get comfortable with early lift, low stall speeds, low top-end speeds, and (relatively) easy turning. The next step, in my opinion, is the HS1550V2. It's not impossible to learn on this but it may be a bit frustrating at first. This could be the only (front) wing that you'll need. It's great to be able to change the tail wing to alter the ride characteristics of the overall setup--from the 232V2 to the HA195 and the FV200 (not to mention, their "chop shop" versions). Matt Nuzzo from RealWatersports has a great review of the HS1550V2 on YouTube.
I have no previous wind sport or foiling background (except for a bit of efoiling) and have been winging for about six months now. I absolutely love the HS1550V2. I may purchase a HS1250 for windier days here on Maui but am very content with what I currently have. I'm not confident enough to move onto the HA range yet. I hope this helps.
Select to expand quotepaulweller2 said..
The argument for Armstrong (from a beginner): It may be best to start with something like the HS1850 or CF2400 just so you can get comfortable with early lift, low stall speeds, low top-end speeds, and (relatively) easy turning. The next step, in my opinion, is the HS1550V2. It's not impossible to learn on this but it may be a bit frustrating at first. This could be the only (front) wing that you'll need. It's great to be able to change the tail wing to alter the ride characteristics of the overall setup--from the 232V2 to the HA195 and the FV200 (not to mention, their "chop shop" versions). Matt Nuzzo from RealWatersports has a great review of the HS1550V2 on YouTube.
I have no previous wind sport or foiling background (except for a bit of efoiling) and have been winging for about six months now. I absolutely love the HS1550V2. I may purchase a HS1250 for windier days here on Maui but am very content with what I currently have. I'm not confident enough to move onto the HA range yet. I hope this helps.
+1.
At your weight you could easily start on HS1850 and keep it for light wind days as you get HS1550v2 or HS1250 as your second wing. CF2400 may be (very) slightly easier to learn on but at your weight it will become too big and slow very quickly.
I started on the i99 as well. then I went to Axis and started on the BCS 1060 which was great to learn and progress on.
... on the Takuma I would go the Helium 1500 rather than the 1750. They have a ton of lift at your weight.
I'm an Armstrong fan boy so I can speak to their stuff, but I would also strongly consider Lift or Axis (or GoFoil) as well. Takuma makes great foils but their connections and system quality are sub par and I would not go that route.
If you go with Army, start with the 1850. At your weight you don't need to go any bigger. I still use the 1850 (&1550v2) for light wind days or if the ocean is chaotic and I want stability. It turns great and has predictable lift, and is very stable for learning foot switches, jibes and tacks.
Enjoy the journey!
Axis BSC 1060. There are plenty of options for when you want to go smaller.
Another option for someone with wind sport skill would be the Axis HPS 1050. There may be a bit mor pain at the start. But a great foil with plenty of lift.
checkout the Axis brochure for their comments on the HPS line and starting out.
Select to expand quotepaulweller2 said..
The argument for Armstrong (from a beginner): It may be best to start with something like the HS1850 or CF2400 just so you can get comfortable with early lift, low stall speeds, low top-end speeds, and (relatively) easy turning. The next step, in my opinion, is the HS1550V2. It's not impossible to learn on this but it may be a bit frustrating at first. This could be the only (front) wing that you'll need. It's great to be able to change the tail wing to alter the ride characteristics of the overall setup--from the 232V2 to the HA195 and the FV200 (not to mention, their "chop shop" versions). Matt Nuzzo from RealWatersports has a great review of the HS1550V2 on YouTube.
I have no previous wind sport or foiling background (except for a bit of efoiling) and have been winging for about six months now. I absolutely love the HS1550V2. I may purchase a HS1250 for windier days here on Maui but am very content with what I currently have. I'm not confident enough to move onto the HA range yet. I hope this helps.
+2
I struggled with other brand gear when learning before switching to Armstrong. I (80kg) was up and going on the CF2400 immediately and it still gets used on sub 10 knot days with my 7m Slick. At your 65kg the HS1850 would also be a good beginner option, HS1550V2 would be frustrating for sure. I also have smaller Armstrong wings - the build quality in the Armie gear is very impressive.
You could try the Go Foil GT 1750 (just about to come out) or the GT2200 (but the span is rather wide)
the Takuma is very popular in Europe right now so I guess it delivers
At 95kgs i started with the Armstrong CF2400, and then got the 1550v2. I still use the 2400 in everything below 15mph. As others have said, because you're many pies lighter than me, you can start smaller with your first foil. I've only been on these 2 foils but the "CF" feels more stable and the smaller 1550v2 feels turnier and 'funner' when i've got enough wind (and faster).
The other Armstrong foils to look at is the CF1200 / V1 1550. They list both these foils for beginners around your weight. They've also been out a while and can be picked up cheaper second-hand.
I am 76-78kg and started with cf2400... Could have gone with hs1850 but no regrets.
I think armstrong is a good choice for investment. I would consider buying a set for your post learner/early intermediate days e.g. 72cm mast, 60 fuse, 232 stab and hs1550 v2 or hs1250... brand new A+ or 2nd hand - A+ is only nice to have at your weight... Then buy a cheap 2nd hand hs1850 or hs1550 v1 for learning.
Go Axis, you can get both your front wings (beginner and intermediate) for the price of a single Armstrong setup. Get a BSC1060 or PNG1010 for the big wing and an HPS 930 or 880 for more advanced wing.
Benefits of Axis is that components are cheapest around so you can get a different size mast and a different wings at your leisure. Also they are regularly advancing their wings so it's easier to keep up with the technology.
Downsides of Axis are they are quite heavy.
Second on axis. Great easy to ride options, high quality, and more affordable. The stiffness of the gear makes for a predictable and comfortable ride.
Gofoil and f-one are also pretty great.
Alex is basically giving away GL wings here which are still awesome foils. Some people here are going back to gl240 and 210 over the new stuff. Getting a new tail is the most important upgrade. F one phantom are easy to ride especially for a high aspect wing. Their tuning is nice and build seems high quality.
Select to expand quotefelix1111 said..
how about starboard stype 2400?
Have you tried the Starboard S-2400? It's hard to find any reviews on that foil, but it looks very interesting to me.
At your weight I would recommend an Armstrong 1550 V1. Good lift, nice and manoeuvrable, very gentle stall characteristics with good low end. Very under-rated foil. Best of all they are dirt cheap on the second hand market. If you do a lot of sailing in 12 knots and under, get an 1850 as well. These will do you for your first season of foiling and then you can move up to smaller, more technical foils.
Thanks All...and here's a very recent confirmation of the move to recommending smaller area front foils for many beginners getting new gear:
I think something that is often overlooked with this type of foil discussion is board design and matching board with foil.
I just moved on from my big beginner board, with large beveled edges and huge tail kick. This board with my first foils worked okay because the foils were thick and lowish (5.4) aspect ratio so I could do the ollie style pump onto foil at low speed. When I tried moving to thinner foils at a slightly higher aspect ratio (6), it was really really hard l because the drag of board made it super heavy work getting up to takeoff speed, then once I was up I was so gassed there was no chance of making progress with things like gybing.
Going to a board with flat bottom, hardrails in the aft third and a square tail has made building speed so much easier and now the thin foils are a snap to get up on. Touchdowns are a now a non issue and I'm progressing rapidly with my riding and looking forward to moving to higher aspect ratio foils later this year.
Unfortunately, there aren't many production boards of this type around. Appletree and some others are getting close but the Fanatic Sky Wing (which I have) is the only one I know of that has really nailed the shape (in my opinion) for making getting up to takeoff speed easy. Unfortunately these boards aren't cheap so unless you have good balance and board handling skills, from sup for example, they are hard to recommend as a first board because you will want start out on something big and then you will outgrow it in only 20 or 30 hours of winging.
If I could do it all again knowing what I do now, my choice of first gear would be a mid aspect foil like the F-One Phantom or the Axis BCS, with a big tail and fuselage on the longer side, and one of the bigger (but not biggest) Sky Wing boards to make take off easy. At my pretty average balance and athleticism this would be trading pain and frustration in learning to get to my feet for the first 2 to 4 sessions for faster progression through the next 30 or 40 and gear that I could go well into my second season on, maybe even being a permanent part of my collection depending on target wind ranges and riding style.
At 67kgs I learnt on a slingshot 76i , that's all that was available at time.
shortly after I moved on to the F1 Phantom's (1280 and 1080 ) I certainly wouldn't need a bigger front wing in there range. The 1280 gets me going in very light wind with a 4.6 Ensis spin but normally just go straight to the 1080 now.
really like the look of there new range and it's come at the right time as I feel I need a change or upgrade .
Spokeydoke if you look at the comments above I reckon it shows lots of these foils would be fine. You start splitting hairs to try and find the best option. I love the axis bsc 1060 and would highly recommend axis red fuse gear as it's super solid and there's a bucket load of different foils to choose from when you want to progress. I'd be careful moving towards the black fuse gear to start with. It's higher performance but more difficult to use.
I would add, look at the used foil market in your area. are there certain brands that seem to dominate? Go to the foil spots, what are folks using? What do the local shops carry?
Having a foil from a locally common brand makes changing gear easier. That's say if everyone is on Axis, the you can get a used setup, and easily sell any foil you outgrow.
I started on a Starboard 2000 foil, but sold the whole setup the first chance I got, because I only saw one other guy who was riding Starboard. I couldn't find any new foils to buy.
Switched to Armstrong, which is very popular here on Maui. More expensive at the start, but there is so much used gear being sold, I was able to upgrade and change bits on the cheap. Armstrong stuff also seem to have a "floor", so If I bought a used 1550 for $400 USD, I can use it for a year and sell it for that or even a bit more if I'm greedy. Other brands don't seem to hold value as well.
I would add, look at the used foil market in your area. are there certain brands that seem to dominate? Go to the foil spots, what are folks using? What do the local shops carry?
Having a foil from a locally common brand makes changing gear easier. That's say if everyone is on Axis, the you can get a used setup, and easily sell any foil you outgrow.
I started on a Starboard 2000 foil, but sold the whole setup the first chance I got, because I only saw one other guy who was riding Starboard. I couldn't find any new foils to buy.
Switched to Armstrong, which is very popular here on Maui. More expensive at the start, but there is so much used gear being sold, I was able to upgrade and change bits on the cheap. Armstrong stuff also seem to have a "floor", so If I bought a used 1550 for $400 USD, I can use it for a year and sell it for that or even a bit more if I'm greedy. Other brands don't seem to hold value as well.
