sadly,, i have not winged myself so it is kind of silly to say i will teach her, but i kite foil all the time. we've been watching video's. i have a older naish 7' board, about 130L,,, will be on a 1650 front wing on a 85cm mast,, it's the biggest front wing i have right now. i do have a 70cm mast if necessary. i have slingwing v2 6.4 and 5.4.
i am just puzzled over using a board leash,, which i see some folks doing. i just don't want her to get hurt. she will be wearing a helmet and impact vest of course. maybe knee pads?
can i use an old sup leash?
we have the stock wrist leash for the actual wing, which i believe shouldnt' be a shoulder injury risk on a inland lake.
we will be foiling on an inland lake, small wind waves
thoughts? tips? safety tips? she is 19, 6 ft tall, 130 ish lbs,, a bit out of shape, skinny, not much muscle,,,excellent swimmer. great balance. coordinated.
Board leash to back of waist harness or thick belt so board stays away. Planing winds, board can drift faster than 3 mph after falls.
Strap wing leash to front.
6' is tall.
Start her learning to foil first behind a boat if possible. Then do the wing after she can foil. Learning 2 new things is harder than one at a time.
Select to expand quotehilly said..
Start her learning to foil first behind a boat if possible. Then do the wing after she can foil. Learning 2 new things is harder than one at a time.
I thought about that but I sort of felt behind boat was a bit more dangerous and logistically difficult right now. I've seen some ugly falls foiling behind boat. But maybe. Plus legally I need a third and I don't have one. Hmmmm. I respect your experience though. Maybe will try on Wednesday. The big obstacle is I only have a 20 foot competition ski boat and it sucks in any type of chop And this entire next seven days is nonstop wind
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Board leash to back of waist harness or thick belt so board stays away. Planing winds, board can drift faster than 3 mph after falls.
Strap wing leash to front.
6' is tall.
Could I get a little bit more clarification on that?. So the typical board leash to the ankle is not a good idea? Why does a board leash attached to the back of a belt keep the board staying away from her in the event of a crash?
Select to expand quoterockwind1 said..hilly said..
Start her learning to foil first behind a boat if possible. Then do the wing after she can foil. Learning 2 new things is harder than one at a time.
I thought about that but I sort of felt behind boat was a bit more dangerous and logistically difficult right now. I've seen some ugly falls foiling behind boat. But maybe. Plus legally I need a third and I don't have one. Hmmmm. I respect your experience though. Maybe will try on Wednesday. The big obstacle is I only have a 20 foot competition ski boat and it sucks in any type of chop And this entire next seven days is nonstop wind
Behind the boat is the key, too difficult to learn two things in one. I tried to teach my daughter just using the wing without any foil on a SUP and that was hard enough.
No need for a boat. Yes to the leash and a small foil wing, you don't want the board to lift in the first stages.
All you want is for her to cruise back and forth, no foiling. Just get used to controlling the wing in the light stuff, the foil will provide a lot of stability to the board and help her point upwind.
Learning the foil dynamics behind a boat is absolutely the fastest, best, and arguably safest way to begin the journey. If windy, go to the lee side of your waterway and start towing. I have spent the past two weeks teaching some of my cousins how to foil, ranging in age from 10-50. All of them were able to foil in 1-3 sessions, those with watersports experience and balance were foiling in 2-3 pulls, with proper instruction. So fun to watch them progress and to spread the stoke. All behind an aluminum fishing boat with an 8hp 2-stroke outboard. Yes, 8 horsepower. Speeds from 5-16mph. Bad falls and injuries are avoided by a somewhat lengthy safety talk including how to fall, when to bail, and starting slow. Boat boat boat!
Select to expand quoteFoilColorado said..
Learning the foil dynamics behind a boat is absolutely the fastest, best, and arguably safest way to begin the journey. If windy, go to the lee side of your waterway and start towing. I have spent the past two weeks teaching some of my cousins how to foil, ranging in age from 10-50. All of them were able to foil in 1-3 sessions, those with watersports experience and balance were foiling in 2-3 pulls, with proper instruction. So fun to watch them progress and to spread the stoke. All behind an aluminum fishing boat with an 8hp 2-stroke outboard. Yes, 8 horsepower. Speeds from 5-16mph. Bad falls and injuries are avoided by a somewhat lengthy safety talk including how to fall, when to bail, and starting slow. Boat boat boat!
Awesome 
Select to expand quoteairsail said..
No need for a boat. Yes to the leash and a small foil wing, you don't want the board to lift in the first stages.
All you want is for her to cruise back and forth, no foiling. Just get used to controlling the wing in the light stuff, the foil will provide a lot of stability to the board and help her point upwind.
so my naish came with the little fins,, 4 of them, in little tuttle boxes. i can't find them now of course,, but those are not really necessary with the foil attached? i mean,, to help stay up wind? while not on foil, just basically sup'g aroundwith the wing?
Select to expand quoteFoilColorado said..
Learning the foil dynamics behind a boat is absolutely the fastest, best, and arguably safest way to begin the journey. If windy, go to the lee side of your waterway and start towing. I have spent the past two weeks teaching some of my cousins how to foil, ranging in age from 10-50. All of them were able to foil in 1-3 sessions, those with watersports experience and balance were foiling in 2-3 pulls, with proper instruction. So fun to watch them progress and to spread the stoke. All behind an aluminum fishing boat with an 8hp 2-stroke outboard. Yes, 8 horsepower. Speeds from 5-16mph. Bad falls and injuries are avoided by a somewhat lengthy safety talk including how to fall, when to bail, and starting slow. Boat boat boat!
i will attempt to do this,,,i also think it is a good idea. we are in a drought so the lake is a bit of a pain.
Select to expand quotemarco said..rockwind1 said..hilly said..
Start her learning to foil first behind a boat if possible. Then do the wing after she can foil. Learning 2 new things is harder than one at a time.
I thought about that but I sort of felt behind boat was a bit more dangerous and logistically difficult right now. I've seen some ugly falls foiling behind boat. But maybe. Plus legally I need a third and I don't have one. Hmmmm. I respect your experience though. Maybe will try on Wednesday. The big obstacle is I only have a 20 foot competition ski boat and it sucks in any type of chop And this entire next seven days is nonstop wind
Behind the boat is the key, too difficult to learn two things in one. I tried to teach my daughter just using the wing without any foil on a SUP and that was hard enough.
thanks marco,,, will try it. it's a pita but i have a boat and it is do able. assume you are the same marco on kite forum who is quite the rabble rouser? or is it mateo who is the rabble rouser?
Select to expand quoteFoilColorado said..
Learning the foil dynamics behind a boat is absolutely the fastest, best, and arguably safest way to begin the journey. If windy, go to the lee side of your waterway and start towing. I have spent the past two weeks teaching some of my cousins how to foil, ranging in age from 10-50. All of them were able to foil in 1-3 sessions, those with watersports experience and balance were foiling in 2-3 pulls, with proper instruction. So fun to watch them progress and to spread the stoke. All behind an aluminum fishing boat with an 8hp 2-stroke outboard. Yes, 8 horsepower. Speeds from 5-16mph. Bad falls and injuries are avoided by a somewhat lengthy safety talk including how to fall, when to bail, and starting slow. Boat boat boat!
FoilColorado
totally agree on towing. Same deal using 8hp motor. Just takes all the wind / board handling skills out of the picture. My sister is 60 and she is trying. Will be more than 3 sessions. My nephew was getting it on 2nd sesh yesterday.
interested on your key coaching tips. I have them wearing impact vests, helmet and booties and did the safety talk
for the foiling guidance key things I found where
- feet on center line of board
- pumping the board to get it to fly and to fill in any rope tension lulls
- front leg pressure and keeping board just above the water
- using your feet toes and heels to control direction left and right
- look where you want to go
Comments?
Key coaching tips include:
-Starting with a large, floaty board so that it can be stood on easliy (I use a Takuma ZK 7'5" 125 liter)
-Feet 90 degrees to stringer, and centered rail to rail
-Having student stand up when boat is moving forward at trolling speed - 2-4mph (board is way more stable with tiny amount of forward motion)
-Stressing good, strong, straight upper body posture while being loose and flexy at the ankles and knees (SUPER IMPORTANT!)
-Maintaining flat board on the roll axis before flight is attempted (Also VERY important)
-Start with low altitude touch and go's to understand how flight is achieved and controlled
-Concentrate on straight, level flight at first - between bubble line (turbulent) and wake (other challenges)
-Reinforce how subtle the weight inputs are to change attitude/direction/altitude/pitch/roll and how slowly the foil reacts to these inputs to reduce pitch and roll oscillation
-Let them know that it takes quite a bit of persistence and frustration, especially since once it clicks it appears to be so easy
-Physical and mental breaks after 20-30 minutes to rest the body and digest all of the instruction
-Precise location of feet (especially front,) and when flight looks difficult, moving in very small increments
-Can't stress enough the good posture aspect. ANY "breaking" at the waist ALWAYS results in a fall
-Positive verbal reinforcement, smiles, and patience from instructor - students often feel guilty for taking too many turns, or too long of a turn, or too much of instructor's time
-Slowish towing speeds but far above the stall speed of wing, near the stall speed instability dramatically increases
-For those of age, one beer to take the edge off often seems to help! (I'm not into booze, but one unit can relax and not affect balance and coordination too much)
-Telling students to keep their body within an imaginary 3D box extending up from the rails and feet at ALL times (and good posture again)
-When things start to go awry, let go of rope and stand over board or push away hard with feet and start again (explain the taco, how it happens and why it is Bad)
-Explain that once it clicks, it IS easy, much like riding a bike. In this analogy the first few times you ride a bike it seems impossible to balance, but once you get it, you hardly even think about it you just ride!
-Also helps to know that it is a lifetime journey, like most fun individual action sports (skiing, mtn biking, etc) and there will always be room to grow & improve, and there will ALWAYS be someone better than you (that wonderful humbling aspect)
-HAPPY FLYING
will post more as I think of them
edit: don't try to introduce pumping until comfortable with straight level flight. Too much too soon. Rope slack is quickly picked up by boat in most cases
If I had read the above before starting surfing, windsurfing, snowboarding, windfoiling, motocross, roadracing, tennis, I'd never have taken up the sport.
Structure is ok, but rules take away the fun.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
If I had read the above before starting surfing, windsurfing, snowboarding, windfoiling, motocross, roadracing, tennis, I'd never have taken up the sport.
Structure is ok, but rules take away the fun.
not helpful, LeeD, as per usual - try posting something useful/positive
they aren't rules, they are coaching tips, lighten up!
the smiles generated, speed of progress witnessed, and stoke felt over the past two weeks teaching first time foilers using the methods above are testament to their effectiveness. They can be introduced one or three at a time, so as not to be overwhelming.
Wing foiling is a mash up of a couple of sports, 1, foil riding 2, wind sport 3, wing control. It's really hard learning all three at once.
Boat is great if access to one is easy. Most of us learn by focusing on wing control first. Have her learn to launch and return to the same spot. Let her use the smallest wing. Start in SUP stance, but once she gets going, have her go into surf stance. Have her only hold the neutral handle with the front hand and the first handle with the back hand. This will teach her how to get back up wind. Practice flipping the wing on land until she is comfortable.
Her ability to get back upwind is a skill she'll always need, so developing that first is important. Less walk of shame = more energy = less discouragement.
If she is able to launch and return to within 15 feet of the same spot after the first couple of lessons, consider it a success. She can them move on to holding the front and back handles and see if she can still come upwind.
Part of these first lessons is also learning how to flip the wing over in the water, sort your leashes, point your board upwind before mounting. All these skills are necessary and will be used in every session.
Select to expand quoterockwind1 said..LeeD said..
Board leash to back of waist harness or thick belt so board stays away. Planing winds, board can drift faster than 3 mph after falls.
Strap wing leash to front.
6' is tall.
Could I get a little bit more clarification on that?. So the typical board leash to the ankle is not a good idea? Why does a board leash attached to the back of a belt keep the board staying away from her in the event of a crash?
Typically LeeD is confused again! A back leash has no greater effect at keeping a board at distance compared to a leg leash. Distance is controlled by leash length.
My take on waist leashes is that they keep the leash from tangling a little better than a leg leash. My leg leash used to tangle in my feet more often and also around the foil occasionally. IMO the waist leash tends it better.
I still strap the wing leash to my arm, but I've heard of others strapping it to their shoulder of an impact vest and the front of the waist belt.
Lots of different combos.
Select to expand quoterockwind1 said..marco said..rockwind1 said..hilly said..
Start her learning to foil first behind a boat if possible. Then do the wing after she can foil. Learning 2 new things is harder than one at a time.
I thought about that but I sort of felt behind boat was a bit more dangerous and logistically difficult right now. I've seen some ugly falls foiling behind boat. But maybe. Plus legally I need a third and I don't have one. Hmmmm. I respect your experience though. Maybe will try on Wednesday. The big obstacle is I only have a 20 foot competition ski boat and it sucks in any type of chop And this entire next seven days is nonstop wind
Behind the boat is the key, too difficult to learn two things in one. I tried to teach my daughter just using the wing without any foil on a SUP and that was hard enough.
thanks marco,,, will try it. it's a pita but i have a boat and it is do able. assume you are the same marco on kite forum who is quite the rabble rouser? or is it mateo who is the rabble rouser?
That is definitely not me . Even I kite put hardly any post up. Joined SB in 2003 and have only 170 posts. ??
Select to expand quoteFoilColorado said..
Key coaching tips include:
-Starting with a large, floaty board so that it can be stood on easliy (I use a Takuma ZK 7'5" 125 liter)
-Feet 90 degrees to stringer, and centered rail to rail
-Having student stand up when boat is moving forward at trolling speed - 2-4mph (board is way more stable with tiny amount of forward motion)
-Stressing good, strong, straight upper body posture while being loose and flexy at the ankles and knees (SUPER IMPORTANT!)
-Maintaining flat board on the roll axis before flight is attempted (Also VERY important)
-Start with low altitude touch and go's to understand how flight is achieved and controlled
-Concentrate on straight, level flight at first - between bubble line (turbulent) and wake (other challenges)
-Reinforce how subtle the weight inputs are to change attitude/direction/altitude/pitch/roll and how slowly the foil reacts to these inputs to reduce pitch and roll oscillation
-Let them know that it takes quite a bit of persistence and frustration, especially since once it clicks it appears to be so easy
-Physical and mental breaks after 20-30 minutes to rest the body and digest all of the instruction
-Precise location of feet (especially front,) and when flight looks difficult, moving in very small increments
-Can't stress enough the good posture aspect. ANY "breaking" at the waist ALWAYS results in a fall
-Positive verbal reinforcement, smiles, and patience from instructor - students often feel guilty for taking too many turns, or too long of a turn, or too much of instructor's time
-Slowish towing speeds but far above the stall speed of wing, near the stall speed instability dramatically increases
-For those of age, one beer to take the edge off often seems to help! (I'm not into booze, but one unit can relax and not affect balance and coordination too much)
-Telling students to keep their body within an imaginary 3D box extending up from the rails and feet at ALL times (and good posture again)
-When things start to go awry, let go of rope and stand over board or push away hard with feet and start again (explain the taco, how it happens and why it is Bad)
-Explain that once it clicks, it IS easy, much like riding a bike. In this analogy the first few times you ride a bike it seems impossible to balance, but once you get it, you hardly even think about it you just ride!
-Also helps to know that it is a lifetime journey, like most fun individual action sports (skiing, mtn biking, etc) and there will always be room to grow & improve, and there will ALWAYS be someone better than you (that wonderful humbling aspect)
-HAPPY FLYING
will post more as I think of them
edit: don't try to introduce pumping until comfortable with straight level flight. Too much too soon. Rope slack is quickly picked up by boat in most cases
FoilCokorado
Awesome. Really like the body form tips. My nephew did 2 sesh today. 2 nd one he's cutting across the wake nailing his control. So cool to see. Big grin
my sister well a work in progress. Think the body form tips will be key
I prefer both leashes to the impact vest, not to any limb.
I also wish I had learned the foil behind a boat. I think I'd still be winging instead of back to windfoiling.
Select to expand quoteFoilColorado said..
Key coaching tips include:
-Starting with a large, floaty board so that it can be stood on easliy (I use a Takuma ZK 7'5" 125 liter)
-Feet 90 degrees to stringer, and centered rail to rail
-Having student stand up when boat is moving forward at trolling speed - 2-4mph (board is way more stable with tiny amount of forward motion)
-Stressing good, strong, straight upper body posture while being loose and flexy at the ankles and knees (SUPER IMPORTANT!)
-Maintaining flat board on the roll axis before flight is attempted (Also VERY important)
-Start with low altitude touch and go's to understand how flight is achieved and controlled
-Concentrate on straight, level flight at first - between bubble line (turbulent) and wake (other challenges)
-Reinforce how subtle the weight inputs are to change attitude/direction/altitude/pitch/roll and how slowly the foil reacts to these inputs to reduce pitch and roll oscillation
-Let them know that it takes quite a bit of persistence and frustration, especially since once it clicks it appears to be so easy
-Physical and mental breaks after 20-30 minutes to rest the body and digest all of the instruction
-Precise location of feet (especially front,) and when flight looks difficult, moving in very small increments
-Can't stress enough the good posture aspect. ANY "breaking" at the waist ALWAYS results in a fall
-Positive verbal reinforcement, smiles, and patience from instructor - students often feel guilty for taking too many turns, or too long of a turn, or too much of instructor's time
-Slowish towing speeds but far above the stall speed of wing, near the stall speed instability dramatically increases
-For those of age, one beer to take the edge off often seems to help! (I'm not into booze, but one unit can relax and not affect balance and coordination too much)
-Telling students to keep their body within an imaginary 3D box extending up from the rails and feet at ALL times (and good posture again)
-When things start to go awry, let go of rope and stand over board or push away hard with feet and start again (explain the taco, how it happens and why it is Bad)
-Explain that once it clicks, it IS easy, much like riding a bike. In this analogy the first few times you ride a bike it seems impossible to balance, but once you get it, you hardly even think about it you just ride!
-Also helps to know that it is a lifetime journey, like most fun individual action sports (skiing, mtn biking, etc) and there will always be room to grow & improve, and there will ALWAYS be someone better than you (that wonderful humbling aspect)
-HAPPY FLYING
will post more as I think of them
edit: don't try to introduce pumping until comfortable with straight level flight. Too much too soon. Rope slack is quickly picked up by boat in most cases
Thx for this!
Towing my brother in law for his first time tomorrow.
He wanted to buy the Wingy kit straight away,he is kind of over enthusiastic when he sets his mind on a new activity.Had to restrain him.
He is 103kg with no previous experience in water or boardriding sports other than a bit of lake windsurfing back in the 90's...we'll see how it goes :)
Biggest gear i have been able to scrounge is a Takuma LOL 1900 and a 105l Supfoil.Board is 30l less than i would like but maybe if he starts from prone,to knee ,to feet...fingers crossed.
Will use helmet,booties,vest and leather gloves in case he has to slap the scythe away.
One more helpful tip:
If student is having major difficulty balancing whilst standing, knee foiling is a great option to learn the dynamics of the foil. Only drawback is that the fore/aft weighting is a bit trickier using torso in kneeling position than feet in surf stance.
Happy Foiling!
Any thoughts on length of towing rope? Current rope got pulled into the prop so is now a bit shorter, ;o)
Using an 8hp motor, LOL. Last week I had 30 minute session with 90L Phazer board and Armstrong HS1850. Plan is to work on moving my Nephew (12) from 128L JP X-Foil to this smaller board. Last session had him releasing and trying to pump, Hard with larger board.
Waiting for some decent wind to get him on the wing and see how this works
I think longer is better
helps to stay away from wake and bubble line turbulence, both of which are quite unnerving
So my daughters first time foilybehind the boat, I mean foiling. I decided to have her start on her knees just for added safety, by the end of the day she was easily popping up and gliding for quite a ways but we've been running into this problem where as soon as she gets up the rope goes really slack, any tips on what to do with that slackness? She's on a really big 7 foot six Nash wing board, it's pretty slow to respond, but I'm just trying to get her used to how to lean it and how to control pitch. Towards the end she was pretty easily able to stand up on the board and wanted to try it that way but didn't quite succeed, I think it was her foot placement. So we will work on that So we will work on that next time. But I'm really glad we decided to do it behind the boat, she brought a friend to a 21-year-old boy, he was doing pretty good as well, in fact he was the one who figured out how to get it up on Foil. Do you think it's safe to try my 4'8" hyper miler board by doing a Typical wakeboard style water start, strapless of course, I'm just worried that a smaller board like that will have a higher tendency to taco on her so maybe we will just stick with the big board for now
I mean I do see that like pumping is an answer for this problem of the rope going slack but these two kids are so totally new at it and the board is so huge I just don't see pumping as a viable solution. Maybe next time she'll be able to sort of angle it away from the boat and hopefully that will do it but I notice from my own limited foiling behind the boat that you can only angle away from the boat so far before you have to turn and cut back across the lake and I've seen the rope go slack there as well
Hey Rockwind,
I gave a couple of teenage friends a hand at getting up on my foil (Axis 1060 - 1800cm area - with long 88cm windsurfoiling fuse and 60cm mast) paired with 144L Smik Mongrel SUP (about 8'8" long) last weekend. We were towing behind a 3m tinny with a 15 hp motor. Rope about 15m long.
We would start off with them standing on the board in the volume balance point. Slow tow speed. Then slowly build speed and as speed built, slowly shuffle feet back more towards the balance point of the foil. I reckon (from experience and what I've seen on tube and Foilcolorado's tips) get them out wide away from the prop turbulence and boat wake. Gabs was standing a little further forwards on the board (slightly in front of the foil balance point) and this worked well. It meant she would require more lift from the foil to fly. It took a bit more boat speed to get her that lift as there was more load on her front foot pushing the foil down. But it worked well as the forces of lift from the foil and downward pressure balanced out well. She flew at about 16 km/h. Having her out wide meant that she was able to 'edge' away from the boat as the foil flew her, and she could keep tension on the rope. There were a number of times she was slow to edge and the rope went slack. She managed to stay on the board, and I think the longer fuse (88cm) gave her that bit of extra stability. Plus when the board dropped, it was big volume and forgiving at that slower speed so assisted in not pitching her off.
Oliver gave it a run and he was able to move closer to the balance point of the foil and fly much earlier. But you could see the front and back foot pressure for him had to be more precise otherwise he'd get chucked off. He flew at about 10km/h. Again, stay out wide and edge/lean slightly away from the boat, then as the foil comes up and the resistance of the foil drops there's a tendency to 'catch up' to the boat. Edging and leaning away from the boat at the right time will assist in overcoming the rope slackness.
Both of them were having multiple minute long rides after 10 mins each trying.
Conditions were super calm - no wind or waves so perfect for learning - except for sub 10 deg C temps. They do have some gymnastics skills and natural athleticism. Don't want to brag, but the gear I have is really good to learn on and the conditions also massively assisted. Flat calm makes it MUUUCH easier.
Dont give up. It's such a great skill to acquire and will serve them well for any foiling stuff they get into.
Good question rockwind1. When up on the foil the board will glide faster than the boat, hence the rope goes slack, she slows, the rope goes tight, give a yank and splash. Starting with a smaller board with a wakeboard style start will point her out to the side of the boat (out of the wake and prop wash), and when up on the foil if she cants the board slightly and points away from the boat, this should keep the rope tight.
The other thing I'd add to that was when the board was almost out of the water and foiling, I'd get them to just edge out wider to increase tension in the rope, and that would give them the lift to fly. Kept boat speed static at that point so they could make the thing fly, not me towing them up.
I can't comment on trying a smaller board. Yet to do that.
Thanks Marty. Good ideas. I will implement. She is pretty sore so it might be a few days. She is not very athletic but has good balance. Plus she is 6' 1" tall And I think that Tallness adds a lot more force via leverage to your back.
