Anyone ridden both sails in a 4.7 and 4.8 respectively. What's the difference other than price. How does each feel and perform relative to each other? What's the pros and cons of each.
Never sailed a fly but the SWAT is a lot lighter a lot cheaper and full xply - pretty much makes it a no brainer (maybe depending on what mast you have).
Disclaimer: I have both '11 and '12 SWATs and an '12 S1 for comparison to the 'Rolls Royce' Personally I think the '12 SWATs are way better than the '11 ones, it's a massively improved sail imo, it's not in the class of the S1, but imo it's pretty close and for the price you'd be mad to buy a Fly...imo.
Mast isn't an issue because i'm going to buy a 370 Gorilla if i get the Severne or an X6 370 if i buy the Pryde. Money is always a consideration but i want to buy a sail on it's merits not on price it just hard to decide what to buy without the opportunity to try them back to back.
can't believe the fly2 is more expensive then an s-1.... my mind is boggled.
if you can afford the fly2... get an s-1 instead, easily a better sail without contest. Similar durability, as both have a mono window, however s-1 way lighter, way more wind range bottom and top, and cheaper. However the SWAT definately has some points in its favour which is why all my small sails are SWATs.
On topic thou, I've only sailed my '10/11 SWATS back to back vs the sailed the '11 fly2,... the SWAT has better bottom end but a little bit less wind range on the top end (and overall) compared to the Fly2. But you can probably use half a size smaller in the SWAT which means you can be on a smaller sail. SWAT is pretty grunty and generates a fair bit of lift, so gets you going super early, don't think anyone locally gets planing earlier then me on a similar sized sail then my SWAT's. the '12 sails have definately improved the top end, probably equal to the fly2, thou haven't sailed the '12 sails back to back so can't say definitively. And obviously there is the weight thing, I think the S-1/SWAT in that size is like half a kilo lighter then the FLY2, which makes a huge difference especially at the end of a session when you are starting to fatigue.
Based on the prices you really should be choosing between the S-1 and the SWAT. The S-1, which is lighter, has better top end wind range, but is probably more fragile (monofilm window) and more expensive. Versus, the SWAT which has a bit less wind range, but is much cheaper, and is full xply. The SWAT is also a bit more of a power sail, S-1 has similar bottom end, but you need to have a defter touch to extract it. You could consider the Blade as well, it's cheaper then the S-1, no monofilm, but a touch heavier.
Personally I go with the S-1 in the big size (5.6m) that I use on flat water... and SWAT's in the small sizes (5.2, 4.7, 4.2) that I use in the waves. I may drop the 5.2 + 4.7 SWATs for a 5.0 S-1 next season.. undecided!
Final thing... Severne recommend a 400 rdm for the 4.7m S-1, vs a 370 rdm for the SWAT... dunno if that will weigh into your decision process.
I have a 4.2 Gator as well which i currently use an NP X6 400 in so the 370 would be better for that. Seeing as though both the Swat and The Fly use a 370 i'm kinda killing 2 birds with one stone because of the 4.2 otherwise i would be including the Blade in my considerations. If i went for a Blade though i would be using the wrong mast in it, the X6 because i don't want to have 2 400's. Maybe i should just go for the Swat because then i would have a matched sail and mast combo in the Gator and the Swat and matched sail mast combo in my Prydes as well.
The thing is i suppose is that the Fly is marketed as a top end sail with the price tag to suit and the Swat is heaps cheaper so i'm thinking can it possibly be as good or is the Swat just awesome value.
If i buy something and i'm happy with it i never think about the money but if i buy something and i'm not happy with it even if was half the price i never see it as good value. The question is i suppose if both were sitting there rigged up or if money was no object which one would you take? Not because of value just because it's the best.
SWAT.. no question. For better durability, more bottom end and lighter weight. I think the 2012 SWAT pretty much erases any top end wind range deficit the 2011 sail had (based on my 2012 4.2 SWAT).
Plus if you got a 4.2 Gator, getting a 370 Gorilla rdm means that both your small sails are on the right mast. I reckon that 4.2 Gator would be terrible on a 400 NP X6, and would be even worse on a 370 X6, probably have a wind range of 0.
Fly2 might be marketted as a top end wave sail, but realistically, I think what it means for NP is it's their sail with the biggest profit margin. As expensive as their rest of their range, but cheaper to build.
disclaimer - in case it's not obvious - i ride for np..
cant really agree with some of this stuff soo to equal up the discussion-
the fly is about $150 less than the combats which is the most expensive sail in the line. how much do s1's cost? pretty sure it is around the same if not more than flys, seeing that it is being marketed as severne's premium sail.
s1 in a 4.7 also uses a heavier 400 mast opposed to the fly 4.8 which rigs on a 370 which should be taken into account if considering weight as priority. The flys2 are also wayyy more compact so will have reduced swing weight through forwards etc. over sails with longer luffs.
I have seen a brand new s1 recently totalled in head high beach break waves whereas the fly2s have survived some pretty big wipe outs. the 2012 flys definitely seem solid. obviously though they have the mono window which the swats do not.
comparing the 2011 vs 2012 flys - this years sails have a slightly flatter and more forward pulling profile and probably don't have as much tuning range on the outhaul than the 2011. those sails you could really bag out for light onshore stuff and crank on heaps of outhaul for down the line windy stuff.
the change of the luff curve on the 2012 keeps the leech significantly more stable when you get overpowered so i would say the wind range is definitely better.
so summary of that is 2012 = a bit more on and off when you need it for manoeuvres and better wind range.
the best thing to do is to try and demo the sails (on the right masts!!) in waves if possible, as they are wave sails, and then go with what you prefer.
I always find these discussions funny ... it's like Holden vs Ford or NSW footy vs. Vic footy or Sponsored NP sailor vs Severne sailor.
I bet the majority of people here that say Severne is great or NP is great don't really pay full price if anything ...
I'd say if you want a somewhat unbiased opinion read a test in one of the European magazines or better still if you have the opportunity try them out on the water.
disclaimer: not sponsored, pays for his own stuff, not affiliated to anyone. I got simmer kit in hawaii a few years ago cause price vs performance they were the best option, and noone sold it here.
RRP for the sails are:
NP Combat 4.7m, $1,039
NP The Fly2 4.8m, $949
Severne S-1 4.7m, $895
Severne SWAT 4.7m, $625
Those are RRPs, noone that I know actually pays RRP for kit, but your mileage on 'street' price may vary.
As for swing weights... the S-1 weights 2.82kg, SWAT weighs 2.95kg. The NP sails don't publish weights anymore, but based on magazine tests the Fly2 is around 3.5kg. Even taking into account 100gram difference in weight of a 400vs370, swing weight of the S-1 is way less then the Fly2, purely because its over half a kilo lighter. I think on the tangibles the S-1 is a better sail, and subjectively I think its a better sail. Thou durability as Al pointed out is not its best point, I really don't think it would be significantly worse then The Fly2. However there are heaps of intangibles that weigh on peoples buying decision, some people might just not like the colour red.
As for opinions, most of us are biased towards the gear we sail, it would be dumb to buy stuff you didn't like. Not being sponsored, I like to do plenty of research before I buy, as a few $k for some new gear every season isn't cheap. And obviously it's super dumb to not pimp the gear you ride if you are sponsored (cause that's your job).
Being able to test before you buy is a great concept, but really doesn't happen that often in the retail environment we have. Thou the JP/NP trailer is really great in that regard and is why I've sailed most of the JP/NP range is on demo days. And it's not really a Ford vs Holden debate, their seems to be a few price tiers emerging in the windsurfing market, and at the moment, Severne are definately in a lower cost bracket (they weren't a few years ago). The wave sail price is an example, but even more crazy is the race sail prices, I think the EVO4's are about $1800 vs $1200 for a Reflex. The Loft stuff is <$1k I think.
For qldnacra I think without a doubt the SWAT is the better option, purely because then both his small sails would be on the correct mast. If his smaller sail was a NP, I wouldn't recommend he get a Severne.
If you compare the luff lengths of the 2 sails i'm looking at they are within a ****teenth of each other the Fly being 394 and the Swat being 396. Also the boom lengths are within stuff all as well Fly being 163 Swat being 161.
So i don't think there is going to be hardly any difference in feel or performance based on size it's going to be more about construction and materials. An eg is i had a 2011 5.5 Fusion and replaced it with a 2012 5.7 Firefly. The Firefly feels so much nicer so i'm kind of trying to make an informed decision based on other peoples experience with each sail and i know alot comes down to personal preference. I can't try them back to back so i'm picking everyones brains to trying to decide. I can't really find any magazine articles with these sails on test so if anyone knows of any please post the link.
As far as the 4.2 on an X6 400 i know it's not the right mast and you are right about the wind range i think because when i rigged it for the first time in about 30-35 knots i thought it would be gutless being so small but i couldn't believe how much grunt the little bugger had. I went from a 4.9 to the 4.2 back to back and couldn't really feel much difference power wise i was VERY surprised. I gave someone else a run on it one day in about 28 knots for memory because they were looking for a smaller sail for similar conditions and they said no i will have to go smaller it's got too much grunt. I suspect with a 370 RDM Gorilla in it it would twist off better and feel a bit smoother.
there are many compelling reasons to consider the Severne brand
The first is that Severne is named after - probably the keenest windsurfer in the country - who just loves to sail
Apart from being australian designed, creating jobs in Australia , getting a ton of great reviews in the mags, creating the materials revolution and forcing the industry in general to look at producing lighter more function driven product.
Severne as a brand is more interested in developing new technology to improve windsurfing as a whole - and then spend their next efforts developing the next new technology - rather than putting energy into trying to protect existing technology (which by being current is getting older by the second)
virtually all the top wave sailors in the country now choose to use Severne sails - and much of this comes down to performance - due to the above.
Mr Severne is actually completely happy using Swats in the surf where he usually sails circles around everyone else in the break.
The Severne brand philosophy as all about the materials revolution providing a better windsurfing experience for all
All of the team that work with the Severne brand have a maximum water time philosophy
We are getting a ton of awesome feedback on the whole range - including The Swat.
for the money - the value for money / performance proposition is unbeatable.
Neil pryde seem to mostly price their sails by performance.
Severne however price their sails by material cost which is why the s1 is so much more expensive than a swat. That doesn't mean the swat is any worse, just cheaper to produce.
If Neil pryde did the same the fly would be far cheaper.
Almost all sails are good so you can't really go too wrong performance wise.
So I base my sails on weight and price which narrowed it down to severne or naish.
I now use severnes and am happy I do
again... interesting how most people that say good things about this brand or that brand have some sort of arrangement with the brand they brag about. Be it sponsorship or some other form of business relationship.
I guess the lesson here is don't base your buying decision purely on what you read in a forum.
Either demo the gear or read and compare tests from various magazines.
From what i've been told that is the reason they named it the Swat, for real. Because it's designed to Swat "The Fly". Funny if that's the case
I had a sail on the 5.2 Swat today and found it a vast improvement on the 2010 Swat I currently own. Quite powerful when pumped but this power was easy to switch on and off. I liked the fact that there was plenty of visibility through the Xply as the space between the scrim is very wide. The Swat felt very light and easy to flick around during light wind gybes. The black and red stands out on the water to. I have not sailed the Fly. Given the price of the Swat I recon a 5.2 and 4.7 would cover 90% of my sailing. Thanks to Was for the demo. Nice touches are the tack pulley is back and boom height indicators.
Thanks for the replies to my post. In the end i bought a 4.7 S1 and a carbon wave grenade because the aluminium one only goes to 30cm and i want to put a 370 Gorilla in the S1 so i can use it in my 4.2 Gator as well. The carbon wave grenade goes up to 36cm. Hopefully i will be happy with this set up but i suppose how could you not be. I sailed a 5.6 S1 yesterday back to back with my 5.7 Firefly and it definitely was light. Maybe a little more low down power as well but it was marginal. The Firefly is probably slightly more stable but in all aspects you would be splitting hairs between 2 very good sails
