Duotone S Pace 9.3

My 2 cent worth first impression.
Used in 10 kts slowly increasing to a solid 15 kts . ( just where I want to use this sail ). Perfect day for testing .
Its more of a comparison to my much loved old falling apart NP V8 9.4
Note , the S Pace recommends a 490 mast with 32 cm ext . Luff 521 cm . I used a NP 520 95% , ( knowing the larger NP masts are constant curve ) . It looked good rigged on the beach and what I could tell on the water . The downhaul effort was about half that compared to the NP . The mast has about half the bend . I rigged to the vts dots which aligned to the numbers . I even adjusted more downhaul in waist deep water bare handed . It hurt , but there is no way I could do that on the V8 .
The S Pace is a shorter wider sail.
The sail felt good to sail .

Compared to the NP:
Pros :
Easier to rig
More easier low end power to get on to the plane ,better for early planing ,
Softer power delivery , less catapoolty , you can feel the mast flexing more taking the gusts .
Camms rotate beautifully compared ,
Cons :
You can feel the longer boom in the jibes , but no harder to jibe .
The centre of power moves around more .
In the gusts ,15 kts and over , it gets more back hand heavy which doesn't allow you to pin your ears back and just go for it as easily as the NP .
Not as fast and crisp as the V8 .

Being the same kind of sail as the NP , I could recommend as a replacement for a large sail if that's what your thinking . It's not better just different.
Data coming from a heavy , average skilled pilot

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JCBoston said..
Imax, is your 520 NP mast SDM?
Reason I ask is that Duotone seems to be one of the (few) sail brands I'm aware of that specify SDM diameter for larger sail sizes / heavier riders. I use an RDM 490 for my 8.5 Ezzy (largest) but I'm wondering whether I should have an SDM.

www.duotonesports.com/windsurfing/sails-2022/s-pace/

Thanks for the detailed review.

Is it lion or cheetah? And is the mast a hookipa?

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JCBoston said..
Imax, is your 520 NP mast SDM?
Reason I ask is that Duotone seems to be one of the (few) sail brands I'm aware of that specify SDM diameter for larger sail sizes / heavier riders. I use an RDM 490 for my 8.5 Ezzy (largest) but I'm wondering whether I should have an SDM.

www.duotonesports.com/windsurfing/sails-2022/s-pace/

Thanks for the detailed review.

I have 8.0 and 9.5 Cheetahs, with the 8.0 on the Hookipa 460 and the 9.5 on a GT (Isthmus in the Great Lakes area shipped it to me) SDM 490 80%.

A few of us down here have 9.5s, one of the guys I talk to more has his rigged on the 490 Hookipa. I've seen him use it fairly overpowered and he seems to enjoy it just fine, says that there may be some high end out of the SDM but ???

I haven't compared them personally with the two different diameters.

It may vary significantly with these Duotone sails though. Ezzys I think were all designed for RDM. I like how sturdy their RDMs are and use them in my larger Severne sails (not my race gear which needs SDM). The cams on the foil glides rotate just fine on the Ezzy RDM, haven't run them at all in a Severne mast. Duotone is great in they have the mast compatibility chart which other brands don't have. Unless you can get a deal getting sail/mast together, it may be worth trying the RDM. No personal experience on the matter though.

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JCBoston said..

mob dog said..

JCBoston said..
Imax, is your 520 NP mast SDM?
Reason I ask is that Duotone seems to be one of the (few) sail brands I'm aware of that specify SDM diameter for larger sail sizes / heavier riders. I use an RDM 490 for my 8.5 Ezzy (largest) but I'm wondering whether I should have an SDM.

www.duotonesports.com/windsurfing/sails-2022/s-pace/

Thanks for the detailed review.

Is it lion or cheetah? And is the mast a hookipa?

Mod Dog,
It's a 2013 Cheetah 8.5. I bought it used in 2020 when I got back into WS. I'm rigging it on a NoLimitz 490 (RDM, IMCS 30) and am happy with it - the specs match the Hookipa.
I also own an Ezzy Hookipa 460 for my 6.5 Cheetah, and noticed the Serial # formats are the same on both masts. Seems apparent that the Ezzy factory makes the Nolimitz masts or vice versa. So while the 490 is not a Hookipa, I'm pretty confident this 490 is good for this sail.

Been thinking about replacing the 8.5 Cheetah with a new Sailworks or Duotone freeride sail in a similar size. However, the idea of having to also trade the RDM mast for SDM is giving me pause.

Seems you can have any constant curve mast in cheetahs, sdm or rdm. I have 7.0/ 8.5 and 9.5 sizes and have north/ chinook and hookipa masts and I can't tell the difference between any of them

Its good to see people still using large sails, not everyone wants to go foiling, or can go foiling if they have shallow water.

I use my 8.5m Ezzy Lion on my foil in light winds and have had some good sessions where I wouldnt have bothered on my fin board. With freerace foils you need a larger sail to go fast.
We dont want large sails disappearing from brand's line-ups.

On the Hookipa 490 RDM v SDM stiffness issue, the Ezzy website gives it as IMCS 30.2. The Duotone 490 SDM is IMCS 28, Simmer is IMCS 29. I used to have a Simmer in my Lion 8.5m and it was ok, but when I bought the Hookipa I noticed that it was stiffer, as the specs suggested and the sail had a better bottom end performance. Whether the reflex rate of RDMs is as good I dont know.
I use a GPS and there didnt seem much difference in 10 second average, but I also changed boards around that time so cant directly say what difference the mast made to top speed.
But if I had an Ezzy sail I would buy an Ezzy masts.

5 * 10 second average speed. I've not used the 8.5m on fin recently as I've been foiling. Lines denoted "S F" are with Simmer SDM and 2009 Fanatic Falcon 125l/73cm, OFO 51cm. The others are with Hookipa and 2004 Exocet S4 125l/80cm OFO 57.3cm. I reckon the Falcon is a faster board than the Exocet S4 as its narrower, but has less light wind potential.

Sorry for adding Ezzy stuff in the Duotone sail thread, but someone else mentioned it first

I have now used the S Pace many times and sadly have to say ," I don't like it that much ".
S Pace owners please don't go hating on me .
Keeping in mind I am 115 kg on a good day . I am sure it works for normal weight people . It is the largest sail in the range and the smaller sizes may be different .
What I now know for sure , for me , is that it is slow compared to a V8. It is good for early planing but seems to push my board into the water instead of flying . I also own and use race sails and it's a different pushing the board down feeling . I have adjusted it in every way including mast track . I have used it in under and overpowered wind , with long and shallow water fins .
I could cruise at 24 kts and peak 28 on the 9.4 V8 . There is no way I could get close to that on the S Pace .
Also the sail pressure moves around a lot . I am never in the right spot for the harness .
With the larger luff pocket and 3 cams instead of 2 , I would have thought the S Pace to be faster.
It could be because of a couple things ,
1 , because I'm not using a Duotone mast . Although the mast I used looks good rigged , the rigging numbers were spot on and the camms rotate beautifully,
2 , what I think , is simply that the V8 handles being overpowered better , which is what a heavy sailer has to deal with .
So my opinion is , if your heavy chasing speed ,I would definitely go the V8 . I don't know what they are like for a normal weight person . Still , if your purely wanting early planing and not worried about speed , the S Pace would be the go . The V8 is more jolty and in your face , it is more flighty with the board , which is ok if your big and the S Pace is more gentle .
Ive ordered a new V8 ??
Anyone want to buy a good condition S Pace 9.3 ?

I understand about different mast curves . My sail is 2021 .
However with NP masts the larger sizes , 490 and especially 520 are very close to constant curve . I have used these masts on North Warps and they worked great . I also had at the time North platinum masts and preferred the NP . Which is odd since I'm heavy . So I believe the mast to be close .
I definitely would not use NP masts 460 and under on North or Duotone sails .
Having said all that , I agree , it would have to be better using a 100% Duotone mast of the same year .
I just don't want to spend money on a Duotone 100% mast in case it doesn't make much difference .
And I have a quiver of loved V8s and the S Pace will always feel the odd one out .

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John340 said..

Imax1 said..
seems to push my board into the water instead of flying

Also the sail pressure moves around a lot

the V8 handles being overpowered better

Have you experimented with downhaul and boom height.

Sticking to the water can be an indication of low boom height

Sail pressure moving around and lack of top end can be indications that you need more downhaul.

Yes, yes and yes .

I downhaul my S-Pace way past the max sticker and a bit of extra outhaul to keep the CofE stable and it performs much better for me.

You can try to take a picture of the rigged sail and ask Duotone?
I am sure they are willing to provide some tuning tips.

They say you should get 80-90% of the performance with a constant curve mast (I think for the SDM NP mast mentioned below they talk about the flex top SDM masts.)

From the Duotone website:HERE IS HOW GOOD OTHER BRAND SAILS WORK WITH OUR MASTS AND VICE VERSA:
Challenger Sails, Ezzy, GA (2017 on), Goya, Gun Sails, KA Sails, Loft Sails, Naish Sails, NeilPryde (RDM masts), RRD, S2Maui, Sailloft, Sailworks, Severne (RDM masts, 2014 on)
>> 80-90% (depending on model and size)
Hot Sails, NeilPryde (SDM masts), Point7, Severne (SDM masts, 2014 on), Simmer Style
>> 70-80% (depending on model and size)
Avanti, Gaastra (until 2016), Maui Sails, Severne (until 2013), Vandal
>> Not compatible

Some tests:
www.windsurf.co.uk/duotone-s_pace-7-8-2022-test-review/
www.windsurf.co.uk/neil-pryde-v8-7-7-2022-test-review
There should be some difference in top end favour to the V8 but it should not be that big if you can believe what they write here.

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Imax1 said..
I understand about different mast curves . My sail is 2021 .
However with NP masts the larger sizes , 490 and especially 520 are very close to constant curve . I have used these masts on North Warps and they worked great . I also had at the time North platinum masts and preferred the NP . Which is odd since I'm heavy . So I believe the mast to be close .
I definitely would not use NP masts 460 and under on North or Duotone sails .
Having said all that , I agree , it would have to be better using a 100% Duotone mast of the same year .
I just don't want to spend money on a Duotone 100% mast in case it doesn't make much difference .
And I have a quiver of loved V8s and the S Pace will always feel the odd one out .

If the NP mast works with the Warps, you would think it would work with the S_Pace. Comparing the V8 and S_Pace specs, the V8 has a longer luff & shorter boom length (maybe eyelets more inset), as you have mentioned. There is quite a difference. Maybe it just requires a bit of experimenting with the trimming to get the feel right.

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PhilUK said..

Imax1 said..
I understand about different mast curves . My sail is 2021 .
However with NP masts the larger sizes , 490 and especially 520 are very close to constant curve . I have used these masts on North Warps and they worked great . I also had at the time North platinum masts and preferred the NP . Which is odd since I'm heavy . So I believe the mast to be close .
I definitely would not use NP masts 460 and under on North or Duotone sails .
Having said all that , I agree , it would have to be better using a 100% Duotone mast of the same year .
I just don't want to spend money on a Duotone 100% mast in case it doesn't make much difference .
And I have a quiver of loved V8s and the S Pace will always feel the odd one out .

If the NP mast works with the Warps, you would think it would work with the S_Pace. Comparing the V8 and S_Pace specs, the V8 has a longer luff & shorter boom length (maybe eyelets more inset), as you have mentioned. There is quite a difference. Maybe it just requires a bit of experimenting with the trimming to get the feel right.

Experimenting and time is the key .
When wind gusts increase on the V8 it wants to catapult, which is ok for heavy me . A quick back off and I'm into it again . When gusts hit the S Pace it gets back hand heavy , big time . It takes me a lot more to re adjust rearward to push heavy on the back foot to get my fungshwey .
I suppose its what your used to .

It's my light wind sail too. Max sticker plus 4cm 14+ knots and max sticker plus 2cm if it's really light (I.e. 12 knots).

Your 520 mast will be stiffer than the 490 they recommend, but at 115kg that might help out as you will be using that size in stronger winds than 80kg average and you dont want it twisting off as much. Or it might not be better, if the sail isnt twisting off in the gusts as it should. Guess thats down to the individual sail. Can you borrow a 490 mast for a test rigging?

Another thought, Is your S_Pace one with the VTS stickers in the wrong place if it was in the 1st batch. Scroll down to comments about 2 years ago. Copy/pasting the text screws up the formatting on this forum
www.duotonesports.com/windsurfing/sails-2022/s-pace/

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Imax1 said..

PhilUK said..

Imax1 said..
I used a NP 520 95% , ( knowing the larger NP masts are constant curve ) .

Funny how people dont believe you

www.neilpryde.com/pages/mast-bend-curve
The 520 is constant curve.

Duotone say you will only get 80-90% of the performance depending on size. What does that mean exactly? If you can do 30 knots on a Duotone you will only reach about 85% of that with a NP mast, so 25.5 knots? Ha ha, f'ing bull****. Needing 15% more wind to get planing, perhaps, eg 11.5 knots instead of 10. Maybe they dont mean for us to take it that literally.

Ever since , well ever , I have rigged to the way the sail looks instead of figures . Over the many years , I don't trust numbers . It's a guess at best . It's a good start I suppose . I once had a NP 17 cm out . It was a first year model ,and they quickly fixed it , but still. I think it's a good skill to rig to sail ques rather than numbers , that way you understand and can adjust to what is going on . It has given me a skill to be able to rig , at the best of my ability , a mismatched rig . It's a skill that a fat bastard needs to know to get a sail to work . So my findings are based on that .
Normal people have it easier .
But as evilC suggests to overdownhaul the sail to get stability , mabee there is a thing . When I downhaul to the max level , the leech is floppy to the boom . How much more floppy do you need to get stability. Surely your losing power ?

Did you try increasing the cam pressure (same as adding cam spacers)? Then downhaul 3cm or 4cm past the max VTS, should be lose to just above the boom clew eyelet. I'm guessing you've already tried this, but worth mentioning just in case.

Its a shame the S-pace doesn't have a tack-strap, lots of tack-strap pressure also increases shape/stability giving more tuning options.

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mark62 said..

Imax1 said..

PhilUK said..

Imax1 said..
I used a NP 520 95% , ( knowing the larger NP masts are constant curve ) .

Funny how people dont believe you

www.neilpryde.com/pages/mast-bend-curve
The 520 is constant curve.

Duotone say you will only get 80-90% of the performance depending on size. What does that mean exactly? If you can do 30 knots on a Duotone you will only reach about 85% of that with a NP mast, so 25.5 knots? Ha ha, f'ing bull****. Needing 15% more wind to get planing, perhaps, eg 11.5 knots instead of 10. Maybe they dont mean for us to take it that literally.

Ever since , well ever , I have rigged to the way the sail looks instead of figures . Over the many years , I don't trust numbers . It's a guess at best . It's a good start I suppose . I once had a NP 17 cm out . It was a first year model ,and they quickly fixed it , but still. I think it's a good skill to rig to sail ques rather than numbers , that way you understand and can adjust to what is going on . It has given me a skill to be able to rig , at the best of my ability , a mismatched rig . It's a skill that a fat bastard needs to know to get a sail to work . So my findings are based on that .
Normal people have it easier .
But as evilC suggests to overdownhaul the sail to get stability , mabee there is a thing . When I downhaul to the max level , the leech is floppy to the boom . How much more floppy do you need to get stability. Surely your losing power ?

Did you try increasing the cam pressure (same as adding cam spacers)? Then downhaul 3cm or 4cm past the max VTS, should be lose to just above the boom clew eyelet. I'm guessing you've already tried this, but worth mentioning just in case.

Its a shame the S-pace doesn't have a tack-strap, lots of tack-strap pressure also increases shape/stability giving more tuning options.

I did tighten the camms . When rigged to the max sticker the leech was loose to just above the boom . When downhauling a few cm past the sticker , ( to where a race sail would be ) , the leech seemed way too loose , ( way looser than a race sail ). I didn't try it like this because it seemed like I'd be loosing too much usable sail area . Will try it next time . I will also try my NP 490 with 32 cm ext but I think that will make it even more floppy .