Forums > Windsurfing   Gps and Speed talk

Wingssails Speed Special 5.6

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Created by wingssails > 9 months ago, 6 Aug 2011
stringer
WA, 703 posts
12 Aug 2011 12:00PM
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can we pin any of these helps or hinderances on climate change... probably not, but lets do it anyway

djdojo
VIC, 1614 posts
12 Aug 2011 4:38PM
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slowboat said...

djdojo said...
I've added the equipment innovations that were involved in each.

1982 Pascal Maka 27.82 (fully battened sail, board designed for speed, not just a wave sinker)
1983 Fred Haywood 30.82 (wing mast)
1986 Pascal Maka 38.68 (camber inducers)
1988 Erik Beale 40.30 (higher aspect non-dolphin fin)
1993 Thierry Bielak 45.34 (monofilm sail, carbon mast)
2004 Finian Maynard 46.82 (carbon boom)
2008 Antoine Albeau 49.09


Not wanting to blow your argument, but I'm not sure the items you list next to each of these specific speed milestones had a significant impact on those results.

Wing mast- helped or hindered? We'll never know... Looked really stiff to me, and where did we go from there? Back to round masts. I heard the wind was nuking that day...

Camber inducers- nice to use for racing as it keeps the sail cambered without load. Its not essential for speed but in most cases it does help.

Fins- if you havent noticed the raked back fins are working great. The transition to more refined foil designs happened a few years earlier than '88. But there were no breakthroughs in fin design at that time. I think the bigger contributor to Erik's record was the fact he did it in the canal soon after it was built (THE record machine as proven since) during a private attempt in great conditions.

Monofilm? It was used extensively from the late 80's. There was plenty of better material around but it was (is) a lot more expensive. It may have been revolutionary from a performance/cost ratio for production, but not overall performance.

I set one of my fastest ever sessions (and fastest at the time) on an Aluminium boom (48kts max). Short booms are always pretty stiff so being carbon didnt make a difference.

Anyway the point of elaborating on your list, is that what we used to believe was making a difference can now be proven quite easily with the massive global database of measurements from GPS that we can all access. Although there havent been any crazy material innovations, the application of those materials has definitely improved the sport.

The biggest improvement since the early-mid '90s was the introduction of high pressure batten systems. Then with the reintroduction of the wider sleeves, combined with the higher batten pressure. This increased the profile stability of the sails enormously. The batten system used in production race sails is pretty sweet now. Where to next? Where are the problems in the rig? That depends on how you tune it and for what conditions.

Wider luff sleeves, deeper profiles, more even skin tension further back in the sail, and effective dynamic twist has allowed us to be more balanced more of the time. The stability allows us to fully load the sail more of the time without suddenly changing the load on the board and fin as we sail into a gust or lull, allowing us to accelerate harder, and for longer.

The boards have evolved slightly, but more in response to changes in sail handling. Fins have improved in general, due mostly to market demand for quality in this area. With the other components becoming more balanced, the fin is more important than before- its no longer the "least of the unsolved problems". But there were a lot of really nice fins made from the late '80s... also a lot of really bad ones

I think the biggest reason people are going faster is interest in speed sailing due to the availability of GPS to objectively and conveniently measure performance. Thats new...


Hi Chris, thanks for offering a response about speedsailing. I wasn't suggesting that the new gear in each case necessarily enabled the speed so much as I wanted to point out that gear was undergoing massive changes in the '80s and the changes got smaller and further apart in time since 1990 or so.

When you say...

"more even skin tension further back in the sail, and effective dynamic twist has allowed us to be more balanced more of the time. The stability allows us to fully load the sail more of the time without suddenly changing the load on the board and fin as we sail into a gust or lull, allowing us to accelerate harder, and for longer."

... it sorta reminds me of something I said several posts earlier...

"only by a smooth integration of mast and batten curves and loads can you achieve a rig that responds dynamically in ways that self-organise to make the most of gusts, lulls, and bumps while giving the rider a smooth and controllable ride. This self-organising responsiveness has been the holy grail of race/speed sail development since Bruce Peterson and Dave Russell hooked up with Gaastra and their ADTR contraption in the late 80s and coined terms like "free-leech" and "progressive twist" as they started to attend to the dynamic aspects of their designs."

So I think we agree on the basics. That I would get red thumbs even after apologising for my tone, while you get green for saying pretty much the same thing makes me think that now is perhaps not the right time to share my thoughts on fundamental design principles or specific design ideas.

Perhaps over a brew at Sandy Point next time. I'll have facial reconstruction surgery so as to be incognito in case the knives are still out.

Happy sailing

DarrylG
WA, 503 posts
12 Aug 2011 3:39PM
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Hi, Brendon, I still have one of your 7.6 purple sail works race sails in the shed if you want it back to turn away from the darkside

slowboat
WA, 560 posts
12 Aug 2011 6:05PM
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Darryl, maybe you could send bruce some pics... seems he forgot how to use cams

wingssails
WA, 15 posts
20 Aug 2011 10:41PM
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lelos12345 said...

veramente bella Stefano ! forza ITALIA !! spero che arrivano qui !

see i can spell ;-)


Ciao Lelos! grazie mille!! spero anch'io arrivino in Australia un giorno!!!
Grazie ancora
a presto
Stefano

wingssails
WA, 15 posts
20 Aug 2011 10:44PM
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raffaeu said...

Hi Stefano, I am italian too but I live in Bermuda.
Great to see some 'italians' are still applying in this sport.
Anyway, how can we order or evaluate your products?




Hi Raffaeu! thank you very much!!
Bermuda is so far away, but if you come in Italy please contact me

wingssails
WA, 15 posts
20 Aug 2011 11:14PM
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petermac33 said...

my 2009 5.6m race-sail is 432cm luff, 180 boom, so this sail with 396 luff/155 boom is quite different in design.

with a much shorter luff the power is closer to your body so in theory should be easier to hold on to in stronger winds and feel lighter.

the very short boom should increase stiffness.

the foot of the sail looks cut quite low, i can see the end of the bottom batten dragging in the water not to mention my toes in strap hitting foot of sail.

concept is great,love to try one out.




Hi Petermac33! good, you have fully grasped the purpose of my project!!!
the boom is the organ of transmission, rigid organ of transmission = less dispersion of forces.
short mast=compact masses, over a 430cm mast needs a higher percentage of carbon to achieve the same rigidity of a mast 400cm shorter with a smaller percentage of carbon, thus having a significant cost savings
The Dutch speed sailor Jan Walters confirms that the sail is incredibly light and easy to carry "Almost never sailed a sail that handles and sails this light."

wingssails
WA, 15 posts
20 Aug 2011 11:18PM
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SWS said...

The sail looks interesting it is a pity we are not in Italy to give it a go.


Thank you very much SWS!!!

wingssails
WA, 15 posts
20 Aug 2011 11:33PM
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Thank you all for understanding my project (SUPER COMPACT SAIL DESIGN)!
thank you for having understood the commitment that I put into my work!
YOU ARE A GREAT PEOPLE!

wingssails
WA, 15 posts
19 Sep 2011 2:36AM
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new WingsSails site
wingssails.altervista.org/pagina-390111.html

ginger pom
VIC, 1746 posts
21 Sep 2011 9:24PM
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wingssails said...


Hi Petermac33! good, you have fully grasped the purpose of my project!!!
the boom is the organ of transmission, rigid organ of transmission


Are these the two funniest sentences ever on Seabreeze? Blistering dramatic irony in the first and then a sniggering double meaning in the second.

@Brendan, who seems to be taking it in the neck here - the creative process is different from the way that designs progress.

In evolution, over a course of a long period of time observed changes are very gradual, but when you look at a generation level a lot of changes occur during a mutation in a single generation. Each generation contains huge numbers of mutations and most of them are unhelpful - it is however the mutations and random changes that drive the progress.

The wing mast was silly but may have seeded the idea of the camber inducer. Egg boards, DSB boards etc all diverged from the basic shape but they left their mark and enabled other areas of the sport to improve.

This wingssails sail might actually be no good in its entirety but there may be elements of it that are useable for another design.

I'm not smart enough to say (and I don't think you are either) that nothing about it will ever be used again.

I agree though that the sport is in need of some bigger innovations, but you're not going to get big innovations by shooting down small innovations. Rather encourage the random process that produced them.

So well done wingssails, go nuts, try everything...

wingssails
WA, 15 posts
22 Sep 2011 12:07AM
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Hi ginger pom... You said everything and the contrary of everything ...
My project is on target

instead of saying inaccuracies...
try to read the report of my project
wingssails.altervista.org/pagina-390111.html

what is your job? I think the judge, you are good at sentencing...

Swagger
88 posts
22 Sep 2011 3:09AM
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Not read all the arguments but Wingssails fair play and good luck, as for Djdojo why don't you go and make a sail with all your knowledge and see what you can achieve then when you come back with some comparisons make your negative comments.

Like i said good luck wingssails seen one man bands making sails that look very similar to the big boys before you never know tables could turn. Only negative thing i have pain in the arse putting the boom on if you have a boom set for each sail......

wingssails
WA, 15 posts
22 Sep 2011 3:47AM
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Hi Swagger "Only negative thing i have pain in the arse putting the boom on if you have a boom set for each sail......" in what sense?

Fair play with who deserves it...

if I read about a concept that does not approve i not waste my time to respond with comment pages...
those who do means that they have something wrong...

I like the comparison, but if I find a tank I start to shoot...
I like to fight

I am present to speak of my sails wingssails.altervista.org/pagina-405519.html



Swagger
88 posts
22 Sep 2011 4:07AM
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Hi wingssails basically when a boom lenght is say 200 and you have a cut out like Simmer SCR Race (or yours) its nice to keep the boom set at that length but when rigging there can be a lot of messing about trying to get the boom around the sail for the cut out without adjusting the length. Not a major problem just sometimes lack of light and time with more messing around. But without rigging one of your sails i cannot really comment in your defence.

wingssails
WA, 15 posts
22 Sep 2011 4:25AM
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yes Swagger, it's true what they say! but it is a small price to pay to get the sails with the base well exposed
#gallery

ginger pom
VIC, 1746 posts
22 Sep 2011 11:00PM
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wingssails said...

Hi ginger pom... You said everything and the contrary of everything ...
My project is on target


Um.. I think you may have misinterpreted me. What I said was positive.

wingssails
WA, 15 posts
23 Sep 2011 10:18PM
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Hi ginger pom!


I apologize for the misunderstanding!!



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"Wingssails Speed Special 5.6" started by wingssails