What is the best technique to get out off spinning fin and restore traction?
I did try yesterday all old tricks that I could remember - going down wind, but nothings seems to work until almost complete slow down from almost 30 knots to just 15kn.
If persistence of that nasty spin out depend also on the fin type ?
Yesterday did try first time my new one BP fin and spin out that seems to be most persistent I ever had. Once catched a spin out keep glued for few hundred meters.
Interestingly spin out happen exactly in the same spot every time at the end of Cootharebe lake when you just want to go for max speed and water getting fletish. In over places where chop was bigger permitent loss of contact with water surface solved that problem or prevent it.
JP81L, Loft 6.3 BP 32 cm RS wind abut 20 knots, relatively small chop
How long it takes for you to recover from high speed spin out ? Is it just a small brisk ? one move , fraction of second that doesn't effect nautical mile result or just ruing everything ?
Hey Peter you might be sheeting in too hard when you bear off or the sail might be too flat (which might overpower the fin). I usually unhook from the harness lines when the board spins out and that seems to sort it out. Would have thought a BP would be hard to spin out, was that the spot where i was bearing off on Saturday over the far side towards adjacent where we launched from?
Select to expand quotetilldark said..
Hey Peter you might be sheeting in too hard when you bear off or the sail might be too flat (which might overpower the fin). I usually unhook from the harness lines when the board spins out and that seems to sort it out. Would have thought a BP would be hard to spin out, was that the spot where i was bearing off on Saturday over the far side towards adjacent where we launched from?
Exactly the same place where you did your speeding records. I did try to bear off the wind and usually spin out happen regularly.
Strange that unhooking and going straight down the wind does't seems to help for long way ???
I did try to jump of the water but on flat on going down wind is not easy either.....
Obviously next time I just use bigger fin - 34 or even 36, but seems strange that spin out could be so persistent.....
same board , bigger sail - 7.0 even stronger wind and 30 cm fin ( Tectonic Maui) but I could shake off spin a day earliere easily....
The board starts to slide with the nose heading upwind and your arse sliding underneath you when it spins out so with all you might, force the board back downwind and at the same time lift the windward rail with your feet / ankles so the leeward rail and fin rolls over - this releases that big pocket of air that the fin has sticking to it. In my experience a carbon fin takes considerably a lot more effort to release from a spin out than a more flexible G10 although a carbon doesn't tend to let go as much (if at all).
The spinning out when bearing off may be just the fin's inability to compensate for the quick change in pressure (as the AoA changes). Try bearing off not so aggressively and play around with the mast track position. Sometimes though it's just that one fin that does it and if so get rid of it if it doesn't suit your sailing style (or lack there of 
)
The usual technique applies, drag the back of the board toward you and bear away down wind a bit, or if already pointing downwind a lot, straighten up. Unhooking helps. Take pressure off the fin. Just keep changing things until the fin bites again.
Even so I have had some spinouts where I have gone sideways at speed for many hundreds of metres. Once I turned the board over afterwards to make sure the fin hadn't completely gone, because there was no sideways resistance at all. For a while one of my 2 sec PB's was going sideways!
Select to expand quotesausage said..
play around with the mast track position. )
as a general rule how mast position effect spin out ?
Which one - moving forward or backward could help a bit to prevent spin out in first place ?
Select to expand quoteMacroscien said..
What is the best technique to get out off spinning fin and restore traction?
I did try yesterday all old tricks that I could remember - going down wind, but nothings seems to work until almost complete slow down from almost 30 knots to just 15kn.
If persistence of that nasty spin out depend also on the fin type ?
Yesterday did try first time my new one BP fin and spin out that seems to be most persistent I ever had. Once catched a spin out keep glued for few hundred meters.
Interestingly spin out happen exactly in the same spot every time at the end of Cootharebe lake when you just want to go for max speed and water getting fletish. In over places where chop was bigger permitent loss of contact with water surface solved that problem or prevent it.
JP81L, Loft 6.3 BP 32 cm RS wind abut 20 knots, relatively small chop
How long it takes for you to recover from high speed spin out ? Is it just a small brisk ? one move , fraction of second that doesn't effect nautical mile result or just ruing everything ?
Perhaps the fin is too big for that setup if you are trying to go max speed? You can shake spinout off a smaller fin much easier. JJ
Having the mast track further back will mean that the centre of effort of the rig will be further back and puts more 'weight' on the back of the board and puts more pressure on the fin.
This also makes the board tend to round up into the wind, so it could be an imbalance as you bear away that causes the spinout... So I'd try putting the track forward.
Have a read of these previous threads. Out of interest what size BP and in what sized board?
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Mast-track-position-and-fin-spin-out/
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/Spin-out/
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/Technique-Tips/
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Spinning-out-2/
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/spinout-recovery-technique/
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Railbite-and-spin-out/
Select to expand quoteWindxtasy said..
The usual technique applies, drag the back of the board toward you and bear away down wind a bit, or if already pointing downwind a lot, straighten up. Unhooking helps. Take pressure off the fin. Just keep changing things until the fin bites again.
Even so I have had some spinouts where I have gone sideways at speed for many hundreds of metres. Once I turned the board over afterwards to make sure the fin hadn't completely gone, because there was no sideways resistance at all. For a while one of my 2 sec PB's was going sideways!
I had that yesterday when overpowered and in small chop.. bit disconcerting!Still yeehaa able..
Select to expand quoteJockyC said..
Having the mast track further back will mean that the centre of effort of the rig will be further back and puts more 'weight' on the back of the board and puts more pressure on the fin.
This also makes the board tend to round up into the wind, so it could be an imbalance as you bear away that causes the spinout... So I'd try putting the track forward.
Will putting the mast track further forward make the board slower in flat water?
Potentially, as the board will sit flatter in the water with the nose down, so more water line and more drag and will feel 'bogged down' Thats why there is all the fuss about finding a 'sweet spot'. But too far back can also make the board 'fly' uncontrolably, and 'tail walk'. Lots to consider! Best to try a few things and see what works, everyone is a bit different depending on style and skills. 
Select to expand quoteJockyC said..
Potentially, as the board will sit flatter in the water with the nose down, so more water line and more drag and will feel 'bogged down' Thats why there is all the fuss about finding a 'sweet spot'. But too far back can also make the board 'fly' uncontrolably, and 'tail walk'. Lots to consider! Best to try a few things and see what works, everyone is a bit different depending on style and skills.
This is exactly what I have been doing over last year or so. Incrementally moving mast base position from almost total front to the middle or more backwards.
As my skills improved and speed rises with every cm. Also fin becomes shorter and shorter.
Now there is time to find the sweet spot for particular sail:
7.0 (Overdrive) and 6.3 (Loft Blade) - optimal fin size
Re Sausage question: BP 32 cm really much difference to 30 cm Maui - stands free of spin out most of the time, but once it happen almost impossible to rid off. On Maui one small move to shake it off and could sail further along. On this BP I need to find a trick or new skills to shake it off.
I want to marry this two. JP Slalom 56 ( 81L) and Loft 6.3 Blade that I inherited from Phil.
Works like a charm and in first day made my PB in distance and hour with minimal effort thanks to absolute stability and control ( with this few spinning mishaps that need tweaking now)
Pete check the fin sits flush as possible with bottom of board I had a dodgy fin that seated a couple of mm high at front of fin box and spun out 2 or 3 times in a run.
sanded fin down and the bp 40 in question I sanded didnt com close on same day.
When I spin out ,I snap (pull)back of board under my arse as fast as possible , removing all pressure momentarily from fin , if it doesn't work first time I have usually slowed enough for it to work the second.
as for bearing off the action of pulling your board under bum automatically turns board off the wind.
Select to expand quotetrimmer said..
Pete check the fin sits flush as possible with bottom of board I had a dodgy fin that seated a couple of mm high at front of fin box and spun out 2 or 3 times in a run.
thanks for this tip. That could be the culprit. Brand new fin, used first time as is and indeed I didn't check if sit properly ! Really it didn't and protrude 2-3 mm above/below board.
If that fit is so important I wonder if pro speed sailors did try to smooth the joint perfectly ? For example using parafine/ candle that could fill the gap the smother and close all gaps around..... ( ?)
I guess at very high speed at Lauderitz every detail matter and account for extra knot or two...
Peter,
For me the most usual causes of spin out are:
- landing a jump with too much back foot pressure
- trying to point to high at low planning speed
- fin too small for size of sail
The best ways to recover are
- take back foot out of strap, place on other side of the board and bear off
- head up into the wind to slow down until fin re-engages
- chop jump and land with no back foot pressure
Just to clarify , my recent spin out was a bit different type. When speed approaching 30 knots and releasing lateral pressure from the fin to bear off the wind ( to go even faster) and entering flat water from the choppy....
also recovery by removing foot from strap was a bit risky...
Btw what I observed that in this particular place water was always covered with white wash foam and low but dense waves.
Maybe that cause accumulation of air bubble under the fin ? ??? Maybe just fin suck all this bubbles and didn't give back ???
Regularly in the same place on the water.
You may have hit on something there macro, if the water is aerated, it's much easier for the fin to ventilate. Another possibility is a bad seal at the top of the fin bolts. Air can get sucked down onto the fin that way as well. I know what you're talking about I've experienced that as well, I put it down to faulty technique on my part, unsettling the board by being a bit too aggressive.
I find the best way to recover from a spin out, is the soccer player's back heel pass to the player behind. Definitely have to leave your back foot in the strap, curl up your toes so you get a good grip, then pretend you're that soccer player, and kick that ball with your back foot. Sheeting out and leaning sail forward a bit at the same time also helps.
But a word of warning, at speed down wind, if it's choppy and it's a major spin out, there's a big risk of tripping the leeward rail on the chop, this can lead to a damaging catapult. If the spin out is too severe, and beyond recovery, I take the safer route, keeping feet in straps, sink the windward rail, and use my bum as a water brake, depowering the sail by pulling it down so it's just over my head.
Select to expand quotedecrepit said..
Another possibility is a bad seal at the top of the fin bolts. Air can get sucked down onto the fin that way as well.
thanks Decrepit, I never thought about that one, Thanks, definitely worth to look at this. New fin looks massive in comparison to skinny 30cm Maui, with big area. If fin really could suck air trough the bolt holes that must be part of equation here for sure !. For this new fin I didn't used any rubber seals at all just some washers and plastic washer in hurry!!
I am running now to my workshop to find proper rubber seals and also file down fin to fit properly and even with board....
Select to expand quoteJockyC said..
Having the mast track further back will mean that the centre of effort of the rig will be further back and puts more 'weight' on the back of the board and puts more pressure on the fin.
This also makes the board tend to round up into the wind, so it could be an imbalance as you bear away that causes the spinout... So I'd try putting the track forward.
Where you put the mast base in the track will never move the centre of effort forwards or back. All it will do is stand the rig up a bit straighter or rake it back slightly. The centre of effort is always balanced with the centre of resistance. Period. That is unless raking the sail changes the airflow over it enough to change the actual centre of effort in the sail itself which is very unlikely but not impossible.
Position of the mast base will affect all sorts of other things to do with your leverage over the rig. Mast back will slightly raise the boom height and change the angle. Standing the sail up more will likely slightly raise the centre of effort in the vertical plane.These things may or may not affect spin out.
Changing the rake of your fin will usually change the centre of resistance in the fore aft axis. I find a highly raked fin means I have to move the mast base further back to compensate and this also puts more weight on my back foot if I can't move the foot straps to compensate. This can also make the board ride higher in the nose depending on the design of the fin and it's total lift.
Preventing spinouts is more about having a good fin that suits the size and power of the rig, and an efficient rig without big draft movement back in gusts. Also trying not to over pressure the fin, especially with big shock loadings if possible.
Recovering from spinouts is usually done by sheeting out to reduce pressure on the fin and taking pressure off the back foot. Actively trying to pull it in helps a lot as well if that is possible. A really good fin to me is one that will recover flow itself quickly if the pressure is taken off it a bit.
Select to expand quotesailquik said..
Recovering from spinouts is usually done by sheeting out to reduce pressure on the fin and taking pressure off the back foot. Actively trying to pull it in helps a lot as well if that is possible. A really good fin to me is one that will recover flow itself quickly if the pressure is taken off it a bit.
I wonder is you or somebody have so much control that could create high speed on demand spin out then recover from it ?
Sort of trickery like free styles do...
( by high speed I understand 30+ knots)
sort of car racers drifting... show off
for example in desired time and place we press on the fin, spin out for a 100 meters then recover safely in controlled manner and time....
even for demonstration purposes to show and teach others how spin out looks and what to do with them, ( then post on YouTube video)
Select to expand quotedecrepit said..
I find the best way to recover from a spin out, is the soccer player's back heel pass to the player behind. Definitely have to leave your back foot in the strap, curl up your toes so you get a good grip, then pretend you're that soccer player, and kick that ball with your back foot. Sheeting out and leaning sail forward a bit at the same time also helps.
I tried this yesterday and it works. Thanks for the tip
