The new gt-31 will replace the gt-11. the new gps unit will be available late march and and will replace the gt-11 as this is no longer being made. I will pass on full details as I recieve them from the manufacturer.
"GT-31 is 99% compatible with GT11.
In other words, the GT-11 users can operate GT-31 immediately without the user manual actually."
Cheers
Jez
2ndwind Sailboards
Had a quick squiz at the Locosys website - no mention of the GT-31's advantages over the GT-11...
... no mention of the GT-31 at all in fact.
I vaguely recall a GPS expert (Roo?) on a thread several months ago talking about the GT-11, and then saying something like "but the next generation of handheld GPS' (which I'm working on developing) will be far more accurate than the current generation".
Is this the GT-31?
If so, just how more accurate will it be compared to the GT-11?
But most importantly, will it be accurate, reliable and consistent enough to enable GPS sessions recorded with it to be eligible for WSSRC records?
I know the WSSRC are evaluating handheld GPS units right now.... will the GT-31 be the breakthrough that will allow the unsupported individual a real shot at the official records?
I've recently been seriously considering getting a second GT-11 to stick in the Aquapak as a backup to my current one, but if a GT-31 will give me a shot at the WSSRC records... heck, I'll wait till March!
Does this mean i should hang out and not buy a GPS and just wait got the GT-31 to come out. How much more expensive will it be? Is it worth waiting and going without for a while?
Bubs
There is some work being done to convince Locosys to improve that accuracy dramatically and if that eventuates the GT-31 could indeed be suitable for setting official world records.
Groovy.
Where do I sign up for the petition to Locosys asking for a WSSRC-approved handheld GPS?
You can tell 'em I won't buy a GT-31 if it's not WSSRC-approved for record attempts.
Unsupported individuals will probably never be able to claim official world records as they will need some sort of official observers and will need to comply with conditions that satisfy the WSSRC that exactly what is claimed is what actually happened.
Yep, figured there'd have to be a WSSRC commisioner standing on the beach making sure everything's kosher, but my impression was that the main obstacle for a windsurfer GPS attempt is the awkwardness and cost of using an approved GPS (e.g. a Trimble), not getting your hands on a commissioner.
By unsupported individual I was referring to the average unsponsored punter that can afford to buy a handheld GPS and attend smaller speed-events (e.g. Al Green's Speed Fortnight).
If we could get a WSSRC-approved handheld GPS unit, competitors at small events could use these and chip in some cash to have a WSSRC commisioner attend the event.
E.g. if 10 competitors attended the Speed Fortnight and chipped in $200 each, the Commisioner scores 2 grand for a fortnights worth of sitting on the beach watching us all zip back and forwards, and we all get a real crack at the record books.
Highly affordable. The records 'd be tumbling like ninepins.
In fact the big problem would be restricting the numbers to such an event - wouldn't be surprised if at least 60 windsurfers turned up for the Speed Fortnight if a real shot at the world records was on offer.
Imagine that lot all simultaneously trying to use the speedstrip.
Oooh.. and another thing that might help persuade Locosys' mind to include the upgrade; imagine how many units they'll sell if they're first to market with a WSSRC-approved unit.
Instant top-of-the-wish-list for every speedsailor worldwide.
Whoever's first to market with one of those will score big instant sales. And all their competitors will likely also instantly lose all speedsailing-related sales of their own product until they can come out with something similiarly approved.
Think I might write a wee email to Locosys suggesting things to this effect.
Cheers!
Whoa waterboy! You are getting a bit ahead of things. I like your enthusiasm though. 
There is no guarantee at all that even if Locosys goes ahead with the proposal that the WSSRC will accept the unit for official records. It is just that a very good case may be able to be made. At the moment, the error range of the GT-11, even using Doppler, is too large for it to be a practical alternative. It won't be Locosys that makes it eligible for official records. It will take a lot of hard work and the gathering of compelling statistics by the GPS-SS organization and could take some time even if the required level of accuracy can be shown.
Actually, the biggest hurdle with WSSRC ratified attempts is the time restrictions and the high cost of the observers. I am not sure that a couple of hundred dollars from 10 competitors would even come close. The WSSRC require quite large fees to 'book' the time for a record attempt and this must be done well in advance so you can't just ring up a couple of days before a big storm and book day or two. It is actually not prohibitively costly to hire a survey grade GPS, but of course only one person could use it at a time 
Of course, low cost personal GPS allow a much greater spontaneity and freedom of venue than shore based timing systems. If in the future we can get such a device approved it will be a big step forward, but going for an official WSSRC approved world record will probably always be quite a costly exercise.
The hard fact is, even if Locosys build the GT-31 without the suggested improvements, it will probably still be the most affordable, speed accurate personal GPS available, at least for a year or two.
Emails to Locosys from potential customers should help our cause though.
Look here for the rules
sailingsource.com/speedsail07/content/view/53/4/
Private event, 1500 Pounds with resident commisioner (3000 if must come from elsewhere). 1 months notice. That entitles a 28 day period with the WSSRC commisioner on call and available for 7 days.
Open event is 1200 pounds for a fixed week period plus 200 for extra days up to 10 days.
So for Al's fortnight you could get a WSSRC commisioner for 10 of the days for A$4019 plus accommodation and travel. It's a fun event with no entry fee (unlike Ian Fox's speedweek) and quite a few prizes. But with 34 entrants last time for ~A$120 plus 1/34th of the commisioners expenses it would be possible to have the times verified, There are already survey pegs in for MI attempts (not sure if you could use their data, may need to do your own survey. And video timing could be set-up then WSSRC could get some real data to compare the GT-11 to video accuracy. Maybe Al can canvas last years entrants to see if they want to pay for an observer.
Having said that the reality is there have been some great sailors sailing SP in epic conditions and Chris is the only one who has come near 48.7 for a 500m and then it was a special gust and he was still 1.1knots off. Would it have coincided with a set course? Unlikely. Will you get epic conditions during that particular 10 day period? Unlikely. Would a commisioner be available? Unlikely. MI and Wotif have them booked up.
Still if you have a few grand spare you could do a private event.
As I see it, the main advantage of getting personal GPS accepted by the WSSRC is to make official ISA speed events more practical to run at a place like Sandy Point. As YoYo says, a world record would probably be unlikely, but many national and divisional records may be on the cards.
I Import the gps for my shop in brisbane . Sent email to locosys and this was reply
Hi Simon,
GT-31 is using SiRF Star III LP chipsets, estimated launched time will be late Q1 2008.
So far there's not much information, the price hasn't finalized yet.
When it's ready, I'll keep you noted.
Sincerely, Stacy
I was thinking of the version a couple of years ago that cost about $100 to enter even tho' everything was "unofficial". I realize it didn't run last year and The Vic WS crowd may have taken over things.
One interesting point . I got an email from the ISA who say they have been officially given authority by the ISAF to control speed events and run world championships "and national events".
Does this mean if we want to have an Australian Speed championship we have to get their approval and presumably pay them a fee?
I've seen these situations before. Sure you can run it without them but then they ban riders who compete from their official events.
By the way we are getting a bit off topic. I think we should move
Hmmm. Thats a good point YoYo. At the moment the GPS speed movement does not come under the ISA. But efforts are being made to build a closer, official relationship with the WSSRC and since they are under the umbrella of the ISAF.... we may have to watch ourselves.
Currently, we can run any 'GPS' championship we like and there are no issues with ISA.
Well thats done it for me. I am going to wait for the GT-31 AND recognition by WSSCR before I break any world speed records or crack 50 knots
Interesting thread.I,ve had a few chats with the WSSRC about using personal gps,s for offical records and the bottom line is its not possible for the following reasons. No way to record atmospheric interference (sort of)
You could cheat (Run a jet ski down the course)
Didle the gps figures with computer software (This is a big problem and hard to check)
No offical observer (Not unless you pay)
You can use your gps as additional evidence for your record claim as well as video/observer.At the end of the day you want to be 100% sure that if someone breaks your record they did it through hard work and not through a glitch in the system aka Ben Johnston 100m sprint
These are just excuses. There are ways to cheat even with video... in fact I would say it is easier than with gps. Just move the start video closer while the WSSRC comissioner is huddled in the caravan at the finish in a 50 knot gale or bribe the surveyor or forge the survey data etc.
That's what the observer is for, to check that everything is kosher, whether gps or video. I think once the bonafids of gps are established the WSSRC will come on board. As for the gps being doctored that's rubbish as they could send it to the manufacturer or a university or testing centre to be verified. As for atmospheric effects that is also rubbish. Atmospheric effects concern position over time. If a start position is out 5m through ionosphere effects the finish will be out the same 5m 20 seconds later due to the same ionershere effects. It does not matter that the position may be 5m the other way the following day. This is where the WSSRC have their head in the sand a bit. They want the course position set in concrete where with gps it is always 500m in length but that 500m does float around a bit but hey what does that matter if it is stable for the duration of the run.
The great thing about using Dopper data is that atmospheric interference is almost non existent compared with trackpoint data.
But YoYo is correct in the observation that trackpoint positional drift is very small in the short term. The biggest problem with trackpoint data is that there is no way of 'proving' its accuracy. This is not true of Doppler data which can be technically verified to a quite small margin of error already and will get better in the near future. The practical restriction of this is that although you might get extremely good results from trackpoint speed by using projected speed quite a lot of the time, you have no way of knowing when you get the occasional big boo boo, or proving that the record run was not an error.
With survey grade GPS like the Trimble there are other ways of verifying the accuracy of the trackpoint data which don't exist in personal GPS.
The other points Kato raises can be overcome with the use of a trusted observer and secure ways to handle the data. For personal GPS to be used to claim records there will still have to be an observer and proper security procedures in place just as with other official timing methods.
Manfred informs me that the German national speed championships are run with GPS now and that the ISA are very cooperative in accepting the results to qualify sailors for the official ISA events. He doesn't think that the sort of issues raised by YoYo will become a problem. Reassuring, but time will tell.....
Yep but to prove that they want the absolute position fixed so you need post processing of the start and finish points. ie trimble survey gps but is it really necessary to know exactly where the start was ( within cm) if you know the finish was 500m way?
Nup - you would simply need to sail the worst-case distance of 501m + 2xGPS-error, where the error can be as high as 25m for consumer GPS's.
Whether the WSSRC rules would allow it, is separate question.
Yes, how you prove the start and finish were a minimum of 500m apart is the issue.
Hi all,
to clarify a few things:
in fact ISWC (the follow up to ISA as ISAF international class) has the rights for worlds, continentals and national championships. The ISA/ISWC never focussed on a specific timing method, but we need WSSRC approved timing equipment for world and continental championships, as the participants expect that if they break a record it will be ratified. So, as soon as the WSSRC accepts other timing methods, we are on !
We are already sanctioning several national championships run with GPS, e.g. in Germany, and we would be more than happy to see another national championship in the southern hemisphere. There are no costs involved at all, all we ask for is putting a logo on the event website, displaying a flag - and sending us the results.
In doing so, your event becomes part of the speed world tour, all entrants go to the world ranking (which is used for seeding mainly), and allows to send more sailors to the world championship events.
So, if anybody is interested in setting this up in Australia, New Zealand... just contact me at isa@speedsurfing.org
Cheers,
Markus
