Just doing the scoring system at the moment, and want some input on the fairest way of figuring out how points should be allocated.
We've got 6 categories:
How's distance traveled calculated, average of all team members or total?
If a team member doesn't sail, is 0 part of the average?
Hi Nebbs,
My 2c worth, this is a speed comp, lets keep it simple amd next year after analysing feedback from this year look at the divisions, maybe the top divison will want to measure everything and the B divison will want just speed stats?
I think go with these 4 to start as they relate specifically to speed.
# 2 second peak
# 5 x 10 second average
# 1 hour
# Alpha Racing 500m
Distance travelled contains variances such as amount of wind, ocean conditions, current flow and so on. Not realy a speed relevence, sure you camn measure distance v time = speed but if the distance always over rides the other collected data then why bother, just see who goes the farthest (Yuk) We are in for speed, ok doing a moderatly nimble pass every now and then in my case:)
I like the who is the overall fastest team and remember dont make too much work for yourselves to guys, we want you out there as well and spending time with freinds and family.
Cheers GT
Thanks for the ideas.
There is really no extra work no matter which system I choose, because I just program it into the server and then the server does all the calculation. I fully intend to go sailing as often as possible!
All numbers are calculated as averages for sailing team members. If you don't sail, your score of 0 doesn't count towards the total. In the example above, I just gave the average value for both teams, because it would have been too confusing if I put everyone's score in. (ie. for the 2secPeak number for team 1, the first member might have gotten 22kts, the second might have gotten 18kts, the third member might not have sailed, to give an average value of 20kts).
Nautical mile does relate to speed, it's your best speed over a distance of 1.8 km.
If "Distance Travelled" doesn't count towards a teams score, then what's the point of having it? Hmmmm tricky business, this scoring.
Good question Nebbs, we need lots of input here:
These are my views.
1. It was originally a speed competition and the 2sec peak, 5x10sec ave , and 500m, speeds are all about who is the fastest and are objective measures of this, and then this is calculated across the team, so we get a team ave, ie. which is fastest team. So speed is covered.
2. However, there were lot's of views that if we just measured speed only, that the natural Advantage of a place like Sandy Point, would mean all they need is one decent blow per month, and they would win easily, and everyone else would be a long way second.
3. In order to even this up, we included Alpha Racing over 500m, which is also a test of gybing skill, and sailing across the wind.
4. 1 hour speed was also considered important as a test of endurance, sailing speed across the wind, and also gybing.
5. Distance travelled was a way of giving the endurance sailors, who have no chance of posting high speeds, an ability to contirbute to their team by upping the distance travelled average.
So in my opinion, each category needs to have equal value therefore equal points awarded. That is my humble opinion, I'm not a world expert, and I would value, and listen to ther's ideas!!!!!
Nebbian,
Allocate placings on a per category basis, then allocate points for each placing (0.7 for first then 2,3,4 and so-on). You then average these points out to give you an overall placing. this makes each discipline within the event of equal value which will make all members able to contribute. ie the guys that are not the fastest will be able to sail long distances, the red hot gybers who plane in and out but don't reach insane speeds and so on. It will also help even out the advantage of the speed runs to normal sailing venues.
Check out Windsurfing Qld and the way they have been scoring for GPs events.
Good luck
Darryl
Good point Hardie,
The question is: how do we award equal points?
Do we rank all the teams according to 2secPeak, 5x10, 1hr, Alpha, Nm and Distance,
then add up all the ranking numbers and the team with the lowest score wins?
Seems to work I think...
EDIT: DAM71 beat me to it. OK I'll do it that way. Thanks for the help 
OK one further question:
The system described by Dam71 is all well and good when you've only got one session to look at per month, but how do you decide which session to use when a team might put in multiple sessions in per month?
One session might have a good top speed, but not much distance, and another session might have good distance but low speeds. How do you choose which one to use for scoring?
My original idea was that it was a teams average.
So it would be the teams best average in a session.
Mandurah Mob Session 1 Team average 2 sec sessionn 1 = 31kts
Mandurah Mob Session 2 Team average 2 sec sessionn 1 = 30kts
Mandurah Mob Session 3 Team average 2 sec sessionn 1 = 33kts
Mandurah Mob Session 4 Team average 2 sec sessionn 1 = 30kts
So the team captain was supposed to record session 3 of 33kts as the score for the month. Now we have a data base, can the data base select that session 3 is the fastest at 33kts.
The issue here is, that if individuals, can submit their own data per session, and the sessions are recognised by the date of the session. Can the data base recognise this, come up with a team average on each session, and select the best session per category per month. Or is it the Capatains JOB to work out the team best session ave per category, and only submit this into the data base, then the dtat base, rank orders this against other teams, and then awards points?
JH
Hi Hardie,
That makes sense. I'll go with your idea.
I'm trying to make the database do everything possible, so the captain just inputs all the data for his/her team for that session, and the website automatically picks the best numbers for that team. That means less work for the captain, and more accuracy.
I was getting confused because I led myself down the garden path a little bit, didn't fully understand the scoring system you had envisaged.
Later on (once the site is live) I'll allow everyone to input their own numbers (and the database will recognise this based on the session date), but for now it's the captain's job to do it.
Thanks for that!
Why not have teams only submit one entry per month for "official" scrutiny. Obviously this is the one they will think will win the month (so to speak). This will allow us in Qld who may have only moderate winds to possibly focus on alpha or distance to make up some weaker speed results. Teams can send the raw track data through for analysis - clears up any issues regarding legitamacy of results. For bragging rights then there is always the avenue for allowing "unofficial" results to be posted by teams - similar to the GPS site on seabreeze. This could be a way of professional intimidation by the sandy point sailors or exageration by us queenslanders.
If you want to rank all team tracks then is it possible to design an excel spreadsheet online to do all this then send access to the team captains to input the data and let the computer do the rest. This sounds difficult just typing it.
Personally i would only allow one official entry per team per month -it will make the official's (your) job much easier.
The rest will be purely social and telling the longest tale.
hope this helps
darryl
you only have to neutralize SP once. Because of the curved nature of the bar most walk half way back. That hits their 1hour. They can't sail a NM there so that hit's them again. Distance traveled? They only have a short window with the tide. Hit a 3rd time?
The reality Hardie, is that the only way you'd have a fair comp is if everyone is at the same place at the same time. As it is, it will always be a comp between locales rather than riders.
Hardie and Nebbian, Sounds like a lot of difficult decisions. I really like the distance idea. We know before we start the sailors at Sandy PT, then WA will be on top due to location and wind as well as skill. THe distance is probably the best chance of a level playing field. We all get days when there is lots of wind and could sail all day. I would find that one, a much harder challange than screaming down a run flat out. I have never sailed more than 5 hours and couldn't imagine how hard a whole non stop sailing day would go.
If not this time, maybe the year after?
To even out the Sandy Point factor try this
38 kts at S.P is pretty good sailing and yes a few can get to 40kts
36 kts any where else is pretty good
If one team of 4 does 38 kts ave and travels 60 km ( A real ave for S.P)
38 kts (Team ave) x 60km = 2280 (Second place)
Another team of 4 does 36 ave and travels 64 km
36 kts x 64km =2304 (First place)
Another team does 20.75 ave and travels 110 km
20.75 x 110 =2282 They are now in second place
I,ve tried lots of different combo,s and it seams to reward who push the limits, be it speed or distance.
It would work with any of the categories
This would let the teams with not a lot of wind compete for the overall trophy on a level playing field they just have to sail a longer distance.
Please find some holes in the system we want an even comp
Yoyo
quote:My one hour at sp is pretty good.Distance a lot and nm not bad either. Let the games begin.
you only have to neutralize SP once. Because of the curved nature of the bar most walk half way back. That hits their 1hour. They can't sail a NM there so that hit's them again. Distance traveled? They only have a short window with the tide. Hit a 3rd time?
Hey Kato,
So how does that work with 5 "other" divisions? Do you multiply every number by the distance travelled, so distance becomes 5 times as important as all the other numbers?
Very very tricky business this scoring 
My thoughts are that Hardies system is the best, distance is just another category, and you figure out the ranks for all the 6 different categories, then add the ranks for each team, and the team withe the lowest scores wins, that way I believe that it's the fairest system?
I'm trying to make this simple, and fair... I'm hoping those two aren't mutually exclusive!
The problem that I see with seperate divisions is that S.P. may dominate too much as Slowboat says "all they need is one good day"N/M is the only one we have a problem doing. If you multiply all the divisions by the distance then I hope distance has an equal importance in an overall result without dominating. Alpha s of an ave 22kts x 35km= 770 gets beaten by ave 18 x 43 km = 774 or 28kts x 28 km =784 .It might mean that if your spot isn,t fast but you can sail distance then you can still win the overall even if Sandy point dominates the categories.Or apply distance to everything.Have some one run their old tracks through this system and see if it works.I,m happy to provide mine if it helps.
Hey Kato,
I sent you an email.
I'm curious as to whether S.P. really is as good as everyone says it is, after having a bit of an explore on google earth there are a number of places up here that look like they stop the waves but don't stop the wind.
The dilemma I face is that I have to make the system simple, fair, and easy to check up on. I don't want a bug in the system to make one state have bragging rights when another deserves it... so that means Joe Average should be able to check the scoring, easily, and simply.
In the same vein, I don't want the S.P. guys to be disadvantaged!
We want to reward people who've pushed their limits, tried something new, and gotten to a new level. Hopefully everyone who's entered will sail just a tiny bit more because of the competition, knowing that their result will contribute to their team's cause. But I really don't want to turn this into just an endurance marathon. Someone who pushes the limits should be rewarded, even if they don't sail for a huge distance.
quote:
I'm curious as to whether S.P. really is as good as everyone says it is,
quote:
Originally posted by nebbian
We want to reward people who've pushed their limits, tried something new, and gotten to a new level. Hopefully everyone who's entered will sail just a tiny bit more because of the competition, knowing that their result will contribute to their team's cause. But I really don't want to turn this into just an endurance marathon. Someone who pushes the limits should be rewarded, even if they don't sail for a huge distance.
....... The other thing I want to say is, that the Challenge is not a replacement or in competition with all the State windsurfing association events, or shop sponsored events, they have an important role to play where the elite and those that aspire to be elite compete.
The challenge is about invlovement and participation all year... a way to record and compare and build relationhips......
You can wear your gps at any of the other events you compete in, and record your session on the challenge........
Given that most events, if not all, are individual based, this allows us to be in a team, when having fun, when being at serious event competitions, on holidays, or whenever we choose to sail
The possibilities are endless
Can we keep the categories separate all the way thru, so that this team wins this but that team wins that???? Then anybody can make their own subjective judgment over what is more important.
quote:
Originally posted by decrepit
Can we keep the categories separate all the way thru, so that this team wins this but that team wins that???? Then anybody can make their own subjective judgment over what is more important.
Decrepits idea will be on the (currently not yet implemented) "Rankings" page. I had it planned for a while.
I was thinking 6 tables, one for each of the categories, which shows which state is winning for that month in that category.
Decrepit, what are your thoughts on an overall winner at the end of the year?
Don't forget Kato is generously designing building and donating the trophy for the overall winner of the challenge!!!!!
yeah well that's the hard one isn't it. I think everybody's going to have a different slant on that.
I'm just so new to this whole speed thing, I don't really know what the different speed categories imply, re difficulty, etc.
And trying to incorporate distance covered into it fairly, is a job for Marvin, and could take his whole planet size brain.
If I had to figure it out, I'd throw up my hands and keep it separate.
quote:
Originally posted by decrepit
yeah well that's the hard one isn't it. I think everybody's going to have a different slant on that.
I'm just so new to this whole speed thing, I don't really know what the different speed categories imply, re difficulty, etc.
And trying to incorporate distance covered into it fairly, is a job for Marvin, and could take his whole planet size brain.
If I had to figure it out, I'd throw up my hands and keep it separate.
Hmmm it's a minefield isn't it. And everyone's got a slightly different idea of who should win.
Thanks all for the suggestions, they are very much appreciated.
I'll go with the "Rank the teams into six separate leaderboards (one per category), then figure out which team has the lowest score out of that".
If one team (or state) consistently comes out on top then that will become obvious after a couple of months. Bear in mind that most sections are monthly, so if you're the first team to post for a certain month, you get bragging rights for a day or two at least 
quote:
Originally posted by nebbian
I'll go with the "Rank the teams into six separate leaderboards (one per category), then figure out which team has the lowest score out of that".
had a thought overnight, goes like this.
To make it fair each of the 6 categories needs to have a 16.66% weighting for determining overall leader.
Methods so far suggested seem to give distance 50% and the rest 8.333%
Sorry if this had already been said, but I've got mandurah's secret weapon to get on with, can't be bothered going back thru all the posts.
What if team aggregate distance is divided by number of team members, to produce average distance.
Team averages are compared, and order of ranking assigned, ie 1st 2nd 3rd etc.
These numbers are then added to the speed numbers.
