Forums > Windsurfing General

vent plugs

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Created by jp747 > 9 months ago, 13 Feb 2008
FormulaNova
WA, 15084 posts
14 Feb 2008 10:01AM
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elmo said...

The use of O'rings is not flawed.

The use of the wrong sized ones is.

Most Orings used are 1.25mm - 1.5mm cross section do not cover the thread entry properly.

It's not a tough issue to resolve.


Is it the o-rings that are meant to keep the seal, or just keep the sand out?

My guess from looking at them is that the half-flat on the vent screw is what is used as the valve. The o-ring is just to stop the sand getting in there. No?

Or is it a combination?

snides8
WA, 1731 posts
14 Feb 2008 10:14AM
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elmo said...

The use of O'rings is not flawed.

The use of the wrong sized ones is.

Most Orings used are 1.25mm - 1.5mm cross section do not cover the thread entry properly.

It's not a tough issue to resolve.


have to disagree...compressing an o ring between 2 flat surfaces (one of which is spinning) is not the right application or use of an o ring...although it works in a fashion

grumplestiltskin
WA, 2331 posts
14 Feb 2008 11:05AM
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snides8 said...

googles a wonderful thing isn't it? instant wisdom at the touch of a button
p.s i did mention volume...not pressure
tony one of the ca's i have had for aprox 2 years and no probs with salt build up and i dont wash the board or any equipment for that matter


Only just read this thread and what I did notice is that you call one of your boards TONY.

I thought that was pretty interesting

back on topic: I try and loosen my vent plug after most sails (when I remember)
However due to the fact that I usually smash some part of the board during every session that I sail, there is usually a hole for the air to vent out of anyway

elmo
WA, 8868 posts
14 Feb 2008 11:34AM
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snides8 said...

elmo said...

The use of O'rings is not flawed.

The use of the wrong sized ones is.

Most Orings used are 1.25mm - 1.5mm cross section do not cover the thread entry properly.

It's not a tough issue to resolve.


have to disagree...compressing an o ring between 2 flat surfaces (one of which is spinning) is not the right application or use of an o ring...although it works in a fashion


Speaking as a "Gasket" manufacturer using a flat gasket on a rotating surface is none to good either in fact with the introduction of sand it is worse.

The "O"ring as you say is not ideal but it does have the benefits of point loading which can give a better seal.

The big problem is that the sizes of the "O"rings generally used are to small and that they barely cover the groove which is the start of the thread (no the top of the hole is not a smooth faces some people may believe).

By increasing the OD of the oring, you get a larger contact area, a correctly chosen "O"ring cross section will also allow the "O"ring to seal on the outside of the hole as well as the bottom face of the hole. I had to do this after I had a vent hole redone with a Helicoil (metal thread repacement) which requires a bigger hole to be made, since using the larger "O"rings I get a definitive pressure change (hissing air) when I open the vent after a session.

Sand in the hole can still allow (within reason) the plug to seal, but will be detrimental to the life of the seal.

Plug "O"rings and gaskets should be checked and replaced regularly, as Steve said they rotating action of the plug is not what a "O"ring is originally designed for and IT WILL WEAR.
If you are a gorilla who thinks the bung should be tightened to such a load that it pokes out the bottom of the board then yours should be checked and replaced more frequently. Sand will also wear away at the "O"ring.

Do not blame the manufacturers of your board because you don't check your kit properly.

evlPanda
NSW, 9207 posts
14 Feb 2008 2:13PM
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Timing for this thread couldn't be better.

I usually just unscrew the bung till it pops out a bit, not all the way. On the weekend I was thinking about whether that was actually enough to release the pressure and I took the bung all the way out. The o-ring was about 50% degraded, more of a u-ring.

So what I'm getting from this thread is that o-rings aren't the best because they are subject to friction of the screw, but they will do as long as they are checked and replaced often enough.

So get the thickest you can find, and don't ring its neck when tightening. Just a firm fit to seal the o-ring?

And do I need to take all the way out each time (when dry)? I'm storing in a QLD garage, which can get quite hot.

snides8
WA, 1731 posts
14 Feb 2008 12:26PM
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hello mr evil,
i am allways suss of water leaks, as a plumber i see a few of them, especially on worn o rings,! as a back up i allways keep some blutack with the vent screws (for my old fashioned bung boards) which i squeeze over the top of the vent once its screwed in place,as an added barrier to water.

jp747
1553 posts
14 Feb 2008 12:36PM
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checked the o-rings today and on the seat of the vent was corrosion, just a dab of oil should do it and rubber seems ok after all these seasons..no use really to open vent since it's a bit weirdy cool here..and since pressure is the main reason for the vent then it stays in place before i forget to put it back

NotWal
QLD, 7430 posts
14 Feb 2008 3:30PM
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jp747 said...

....am as forgetfull as a drunk if excited..i've done stupid things like going zipping along the water only to forget the fin cover was still attached(my mate did this one stunt too) and the usual something's missing-where's my harness?!?but i should start doing that by taping the vent with a colored tape once in a while to remind me to close...


he he... I've done all those once or twice
"I've done all the dumb things". I now religiously double check the vent before going on the water and I haven't missed it for years.

evlPanda
NSW, 9207 posts
14 Feb 2008 4:43PM
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Yes, you must have a mantra before you hit the water. Bung: check, harness: check, car keys: check.

Question: Why not a one way valve instead of the bung?

decrepit
WA, 12767 posts
14 Feb 2008 6:25PM
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snides8 said...

snides8 said...
[
the fact remains if you, for example, screw your bung in to the board when the temperature is 20deg and you leave it in and the temp goes up to 40 then the volume of air within the board will double thus creating a lot of expansion force inside the board.


ok nobody picked up on it!
note the use of the word VOLUME no mention of the word 'pressure' see
'charles law'......


well I thought Nebs picked up on it when he posted this.


And if the temperature ever hits 0 then you get a division by zero error and the universe explodes... let alone negative temperatures

The real physics is as follows:

PV = nRT (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas_law)
Pressure x volume = number of gas molecules x Some constant x temperature

Temperature is in kelvin.

So the difference in pressure between 20 degrees C and 40 degrees C is around 6.4%, assuming your board doesn't expand due to temperature (which it will, so the difference in pressure will be less)

decrepit
WA, 12767 posts
14 Feb 2008 6:41PM
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evlPanda said...

Yes, you must have a mantra before you hit the water. Bung: check, harness: check, car keys: check.

Question: Why not a one way valve instead of the bung?


Yes I've thought of fitting bike valves or something like that, so you can just forget about them.
But what if they fail??? How often would you check them??? Can you get anything in stainless???

Burt Burger of Sunova Surfboards made a good bung, of got a few of his on my earlier boards.

He moulded a fiberglass cup around a ~12mm aluminium thread, drilled a hole through both and uses a flat rubber disk between the two. This has a bit of a valve action, as any suck from the board is likely to seal the rubber against the hole in the cup.

handyswanny
WA, 14 posts
14 Feb 2008 7:04PM
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Question. On it seems a normal !? 40 degree Day in Perth, Do you store your Board, Strap so Up, to let moisture evaporate,(which may have accumulated) or strap side down? And could this method if used, help dry the board out?

ps.after i sail i bring board home wash down.let to dry over night and then remove plug.and store plug in your favourite place. Before i sail i inspect plug hole for sand etc. i then wet plug washer with a bit of spit! which allows O ring to bed better when tightening not to tight.

any thoughts?

snides8
WA, 1731 posts
14 Feb 2008 7:11PM
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decrepit said...

snides8 said...

snides8 said...
[
the fact remains if you, for example, screw your bung in to the board when the temperature is 20deg and you leave it in and the temp goes up to 40 then the volume of air within the board will double thus creating a lot of expansion force inside the board.


ok nobody picked up on it!
note the use of the word VOLUME no mention of the word 'pressure' see
'charles law'......


well I thought Nebs picked up on it when he posted this.


And if the temperature ever hits 0 then you get a division by zero error and the universe explodes... let alone negative temperatures

The real physics is as follows:

PV = nRT (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas_law)
Pressure x volume = number of gas molecules x Some constant x temperature

Temperature is in kelvin.

So the difference in pressure between 20 degrees C and 40 degrees C is around 6.4%, assuming your board doesn't expand due to temperature (which it will, so the difference in pressure will be less)



google charles law then re read my thread...carefully!!!!!
of course i could be wrong especially when i talk about something i know nothing about like physics...
the message at the end of all this dribble is...use your bung!

nebbian
WA, 6277 posts
14 Feb 2008 7:48PM
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OK Snides, I've googled Charles law, and re-read your post.

I guess I assumed a couple of things, which was probably silly of me.

You are perfectly correct if:
You live in a really really cold pocket of WA with a temperature of 20 kelvin. I'm not sure how you breathe at that temperature, because nitrogen isn't a gas anymore.
And I'm dying to see your board that somehow keeps a constant pressure by varying its volume. Maybe it's a windglider?

Sorry for jumping to conclusions before, I really should be a bit more careful.

snides8
WA, 1731 posts
14 Feb 2008 7:59PM
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nebbian said...

OK Snides, I've googled Charles law, and re-read your post.

I guess I assumed a couple of things, which was probably silly of me.

You are perfectly correct if:
You live in a really really cold pocket of WA with a temperature of 20 kelvin. I'm not sure how you breathe at that temperature, because nitrogen isn't a gas anymore.
And I'm dying to see your board that somehow keeps a constant pressure by varying its volume. Maybe it's a windglider?

Sorry for jumping to conclusions before, I really should be a bit more careful.

yep i stand corrected..told you i could be wrong

jp747
1553 posts
15 Feb 2008 12:59PM
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evlPanda said...

Yes, you must have a mantra before you hit the water. Bung: check, harness: check, car keys: check.

Question: Why not a one way valve instead of the bung?


that'll be a good idea self-regulating valve, funny how you blokes call a vent plug a bung wow nebs and decrep did you ever wanna be professor of sciences in your past life? concise down to the last letter explanations

555
892 posts
15 Feb 2008 1:19PM
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A self regulating valve eh... maybe something made out of goretex that lets air through but not water??

Carbonart fit them as standard equipment.

Never bother with a vent screw, or bung ever again. Plus, you can't ever forget to do it up if you never have to undo it.

Price is the issue.. it's cheaper to fit a screw than a goretex vent.

jp747
1553 posts
15 Feb 2008 1:24PM
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555 said...

A self regulating valve eh... maybe something made out of goretex that lets air through but not water??

Carbonart fit them as standard equipment.

Never bother with a vent screw, or bung ever again. Plus, you can't ever forget to do it up if you never have to undo it.

Price is the issue.. it's cheaper to fit a screw than a goretex vent.



true regarding price..better a dry board than a waterlogged one if ever vent's forgotten kinda not worth the risk in my forgetfull doings

evlPanda
NSW, 9207 posts
15 Feb 2008 5:39PM
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My bags of coffee have one-way valves in them and there are factories in China mass-producing fake dog poo. Surely someone, somewhere can or does produce a stainless one-way valve that manufacturers could use???

hint: www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&q=one+way+valve+stainless&gws_rd=ssl

I call it a bung from my old boating days. I've learnt to not forget them from then.

Which reminds me:

stribo
QLD, 1628 posts
15 Feb 2008 5:19PM
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My o-ring is water tight although i occasionaly hear air vigorously escaping

pweedas
WA, 4642 posts
15 Feb 2008 4:37PM
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stribo said...

My o-ring is water tight although i occasionaly hear air vigorously escaping


Sounds like we have the technology ladies and gentlemen.
Stribo can bequeath (wot a funny word) his anus to windsurfing science when he's gone and they can just copy that.


Unless he blows it off one day. In which case we can pick it up earlier.
eewwwwww.

pweedas
WA, 4642 posts
15 Feb 2008 4:40PM
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No. On second thoughts, I just got a mental picture of sailing along and looking down and seeing stribos sphincter winking back at me from where the vent plug should be.
Not a pretty sight.
Better try something else.

stribo
QLD, 1628 posts
15 Feb 2008 5:50PM
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pweedas said...

No. On second thoughts, I just got a mental picture of sailing along and looking down and seeing stribos sphincter winking back at me from where the vent plug should be.
Not a pretty sight.
Better try something else.


I was just gunna say that pweedas lol also everybody would screw a bung in my anus before sailing

Susie
SA, 837 posts
17 Feb 2008 12:19PM
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lol

hardpole
WA, 604 posts
17 Feb 2008 1:46PM
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The idea of a one way valve (bike valve etc...) is no good becase I imagine sometimes the air goes out (as it heats) and then it needs to go back in (when it cools overnight)

I do have a board whose internal volume now varies with temperature - a hige bubble in the hull. I tried putting it in the car with vent opening, then doing up plug and putting it in the water - it shrunk down the bulge - but not enough to stop the drum sound as the chop hit it or the feeling I was pushing a lump through the water in front of me. Once the nose was out of the water and I was planing the board sort of worked ! But still made terrible noise. So it now sits in the shed !

decrepit
WA, 12767 posts
17 Feb 2008 10:35PM
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hardpole said...

The idea of a one way valve (bike valve etc...) is no good becase I imagine sometimes the air goes out (as it heats) and then it needs to go back in (when it cools overnight)

>>>>>


So why does it need to go back in ?????????
A slight +ve air pressure on the outside of the board, shouldn't do any harm, after all it's designed to handle the riders weight squashing it against the water surface. A much greater force.

elmo
WA, 8868 posts
17 Feb 2008 10:47PM
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decrepit said...

hardpole said...

The idea of a one way valve (bike valve etc...) is no good becase I imagine sometimes the air goes out (as it heats) and then it needs to go back in (when it cools overnight)

>>>>>


So why does it need to go back in ?????????
A slight +ve air pressure on the outside of the board, shouldn't do any harm, after all it's designed to handle the riders weight squashing it against the water surface. A much greater force.


For the same reason it needs to go out. remember Ye olde Prof Jullius Sumner-Miller experiments.

Admittedly the shape of the board makes it more resistant to compression than expansion

decrepit
WA, 12767 posts
17 Feb 2008 11:13PM
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elmo said...

For the same reason it needs to go out. remember Ye olde Prof Jullius Sumner-Miller experiments.

Admittedly the shape of the board makes it more resistant to compression than expansion




Absolute rubbish, it needs to go out so the board doesn't blow up like a balloon, the tensile strength of styrofoam is almost zero.
All the internal air will concentrate at any weak point.
The stiffness of the sandwich skin isn't a lot of help here, especially on the flat area of the bottom. It only has to release a few mm at first, but once a bit of air is between the bottom skin and the core, sailing action will "pump" that air into the adjacent skin core junction, increasing the delam. It doesn't need much difference in pressure to do this.
But reverse the pressure and it's a very different situation. I vacuum my skins on at half an atmosphere, you'd be lucky to get a tenth of an atmosphere due to internal cooling contraction.

Arlo
SA, 139 posts
19 Feb 2008 2:27PM
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Has anybody come up with any visual reminders for tightening the vent screw? I was thinking about something along the lines of disc lock cord you attach onto the brake lever of a motorbike, or something that goes into the mastrack that you can screw it into.

choco
SA, 4175 posts
19 Feb 2008 3:23PM
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Arlo said...

Has anybody come up with any visual reminders for tightening the vent screw? I was thinking about something along the lines of disc lock cord you attach onto the brake lever of a motorbike, or something that goes into the mastrack that you can screw it into.


I simply follow a routine,choose what fin to use on the day and while i have the screw driver in hand do up my vent screw,after sailing it's the reverse loosen vent screw then remove the fin.



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"vent plugs" started by jp747