Forums > Windsurfing General

learning to use a harness

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Created by Windxtasy > 9 months ago, 3 Oct 2009
Gestalt
QLD, 14627 posts
11 Oct 2009 9:28PM
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so what do you do when you are teaching kids?

stick them under the sail and put them off things forever?

NotWal
QLD, 7430 posts
11 Oct 2009 9:36PM
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Bringing a little imagination to bear - You could put a kid in twisted harness lines under a sail on dry land and say "OK Jhonny, what do we do in this situation? That's right. Push the lines off the hook and swim to the edge of the sail"

I don't think characterising that as "put them off things forever" is accurate.

Gestalt
QLD, 14627 posts
11 Oct 2009 9:51PM
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well i've done the dry land stance lessons with my daughter but we're not up to harness use yet. still i can't see her enjoying the process of being under the sail.

Windxtasy
WA, 4017 posts
11 Oct 2009 8:50PM
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a variation on the theme-
People who fly in helicopters to offshore oil rigs have to do a safety drill where they simulate a crash into water. They have to escape a submerged helicopter cockpit upside down and all. It doesn't put them off flying, it does equip them with experience should they need it.

FlickySpinny
WA, 657 posts
12 Oct 2009 9:26AM
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Helicopter point is a good one, but you've got to take into consideration that people die when that happens, hence there is good reason for the drill.

In addition, they're doing it to go to work. Friends of mine are helicopter pilots (both RAF and North Sea rig services), and they HATE doing the dunk drills with a passion. However they do it because it's part of their job. They are not going out there to do it for pleasure, and they do it because the drills have saved a lot of lives.

evlPanda
NSW, 9207 posts
12 Oct 2009 12:29PM
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I too was going to bring up NotWal's point/analogy of defensive driving. Sure normal driving lessons don't give you let you experience a little crash, but normal driving lessons are stupid.

How many 18 year olds get their licence, are on the roads, and have hit the brakes really, really hard? None of them. Think about that. They have never even felt the ABS kick in. They've never, ever swerved. They know the rules but not how to drive.

A defensive driving course will teach you that "one day you may/will be in a dangerous situation, here's how to deal with it. Let's practice so it is (as much as possible) muscle memory". Skid pans for over/understeer, braking hard through witches hats and plenty more. I'm amazed it is not compulsory.


so what do you do when you are teaching kids?
stick them under the sail and put them off things forever?


Maybe they'll be like FlickySpinny and it will never, ever happen to them. What do you think? How is she going to react when it happens and she is completely taken by surprise, shocked, and out of your reach?

I said shallow water but I like the more obvious idea of dry land now. Just five minutes to say to a loved one "If you are stuck and drowning, it is probably this. Reach down to the hook and do this". Call me crazy.

evlPanda
NSW, 9207 posts
12 Oct 2009 12:48PM
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FlickySpinny said...

Helicopter point is a good one, but you've got to take into consideration that people die when that happens, hence there is good reason for the drill.


That's our point.

Windxtasy
WA, 4017 posts
12 Oct 2009 10:54AM
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FlickySpinny said...

Helicopter point is a good one, but you've got to take into consideration that people die when that happens, hence there is good reason for the drill.



Has anyone drowned by getting caught under the sail?
I'd be surprised if it hasn't happened.
You can certainly feel like you're going to die when you get stuck under the sail.
When it happened to me a couple of weeks back, after trying all the quick fixes and getting very short on air (and this is after years of sailing) I started thinking "If I don't unhook soon I am going to drown. This is a very real possibility." Then I decided I had to use my hands and feel where the harness line was and by feel get it untangled.

Lost73
QLD, 28 posts
12 Oct 2009 1:03PM
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Man, I remember having enough trouble when I was completely shagged with NO harness and getting stuck in two foot of water with a life jacket on...

I've been doing the helicopter dunk for years (for offshore O&G work) and I'll happily do it over rather than get caught under my sail.

Extra information like this would have been handy to know...

Windxtasy
WA, 4017 posts
12 Oct 2009 1:06PM
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So, lets move on now to advice for getting out from under a sail when still hooked in.

Just as you say to a beginner, "Don't worry if you fall in and the sail falls on top of you, you just swim out from underneath it." - that doesn't panic them, it tells them how to easily handle the situation when it does happen, and it will.

So when learning to use a harness - "Most of the time you will automatically come unhooked when you fall in, but if not, then this is what to do:"

1. Reach down with both hands, feel hook, pull harness line out with other hand. Swim out from under sail.

other suggestions:

dieseagull
NSW, 225 posts
12 Oct 2009 4:19PM
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I've landed (quite hard) under my sail several times. Disconnecting yourself from the harness lines is as simple as swiping downwards with the blade of your hand just in front of the hook.

If you're concerned about being trapped under the sail and drowning, the issue is a lack of confidence in the water more than anything else. The only reason you should be drowning under the sail is because you are unconscious.

Windxtasy
WA, 4017 posts
12 Oct 2009 1:59PM
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crazyjockey said...

I've landed (quite hard) under my sail several times. Disconnecting yourself from the harness lines is as simple as swiping downwards with the blade of your hand just in front of the hook.

That is a good idea

If you're concerned about being trapped under the sail and drowning, the issue is a lack of confidence in the water more than anything else.
More a lack of gills...


dieseagull
NSW, 225 posts
12 Oct 2009 5:43PM
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Windxtasy said...
More a lack of gills...

I'll clarify.

I've never had any trouble getting my harness lines out of my hook using the aforementioned method, even when I was once slammed so hard that I was disoriented and had to swim to the surface and hold onto my board for half a minute.

It's very simple (essentially a downward karate chop across your body) , it's very fast, and it requires minimal coordination if you are stunned or disoriented.

If you remain calm (and being confident in the water assists), you have plenty of time on half a lungful of air to untangle the harness lines, or even remove your harness. From there, you can swim to the surface or work your way hand-over-hand up the boom or mast if you're really messed up.

Windxtasy
WA, 4017 posts
12 Oct 2009 2:57PM
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crazyjockey said...

Windxtasy said...
More a lack of gills...


It's very simple (essentially a downward karate chop across your body) , it's very fast, and it requires minimal coordination if you are stunned or disoriented.



As I said before, that sounds like a very simple solution to a potentially scary situation, and one I hadn't thought of even though it is so obvious.

Surely it is better to tell a harness learner this is what you do if you get stuck under the sail, than to ignore the whole issue for fear of frightening them?

dieseagull
NSW, 225 posts
12 Oct 2009 6:24PM
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For sure.

But when it comes to doing trial runs in shallow water and (especially) comparing it to being trapped in the cockpit of a sinking helicopter, I think we're all taking it a bit seriously.

Mobydisc
NSW, 9029 posts
12 Oct 2009 6:29PM
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Another solution is to get a harness with a quick release system for the spreader bar, similar to quick release system for snow skiing boots. My Neil Pryde impact vest harness has such as system and all that is required to release the bar at one end is a flick of a switch.

Such a harness would also benefit an intermediate windsurfer by providing buoyancy helping with waterstarts and protection to the torso against falls and knocks.



Windxtasy
WA, 4017 posts
12 Oct 2009 4:24PM
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Mobydisc said...

Another solution is to get a harness with a quick release system for the spreader bar, similar to quick release system for snow skiing boots. My Neil Pryde impact vest harness has such as system and all that is required to release the bar at one end is a flick of a switch.

Such a harness would also benefit an intermediate windsurfer by providing buoyancy helping with waterstarts and protection to the torso against falls and knocks.




You know, I have one of those quick release harnesses, and I didn't even think to use it until afterwards...

paddymac
WA, 938 posts
12 Oct 2009 7:26PM
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FlickySpinny said...
For the record, I've NEVER been stuck in my harness under the sail, and I've been sailing for nearly 20 years. Maybe I'm just lucky.


Congrats FlickySpinny, that's good going!

Unfortunately I've been caught hooked in under the sail on numerous occassions.

The first time it happened caught me totally by surprise and was accompanied by a bit of panic. I lost a bit of breath in the stack, the lines were twisted and I flicked between trying to catch a breath by pushing the sail up (not possible as I was hooked in) and trying to unhook a twisted line (never tried before and took a few attempts).

I reckon if this situation had've been brought to my attention prior, things would have gone more smoothly - as they do now. I could have visualised unhooking first and swimming to the side of the sail. I can't imagine that it would have turned me off in the slightest.

Having worked in the mining game I've done lots of emergency training for unlikely situations. Most of those situations have never happened to the majority of people training but nearly everyone appreciates being a little more prepared than they were prior to training.

Not saying it's for everyone - like any training you assess the participants and tailor accordingly. Just saying I would have been happy to thought about it prior to 1st instance.

Cheers

fabian2
NSW, 69 posts
15 Oct 2009 2:15PM
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if you are keen to windsurf than you hardly need any lessons at all. i started on a longboard about 1 and a half years ago and just worked out how to do it myself. sure i fell off lots but in light winds you just fall forward (no damage because it was a soft sail) eventually the wind got a bit stronger so i just decided to use the footstraps and hey presto easy as that. with the harness lines i had to experiment with the length untill i got it right.

i can now use footstraps/harness on a shortboard and waterstart.
i learnt so quickly because even though i kept on stacking it i was so keen (i had experienced superspeed early on) so i just kept at it.

my advice (coming from a newbie) would be to show him some windsurfing movies!!

evlPanda
NSW, 9207 posts
15 Oct 2009 4:44PM
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^ What he said. All this training, associations, levels, allegiance to the Queen of England, exams and stuff really take the fun out of it. More like "clubbies" than "surfies".

Has anybody used the "Here's a shortboard, now learn to waterstart" method?

dieseagull
NSW, 225 posts
15 Oct 2009 5:44PM
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evlPanda said...
Has anybody used the "Here's a shortboard, now learn to waterstart" method?


I used that method on myself. The first board I ever owned was a second hand 105L Tabou Rocket, which I couldn't even uphaul when I first got it...

Windxtasy
WA, 4017 posts
15 Oct 2009 3:00PM
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evlPanda said...
Has anybody used the "Here's a shortboard, now learn to waterstart" method?


Yes.
After a few beginner lessons I have learned the rest the trial and error way.
A few more lessons at critical points eg) learning to waterstart could have sped up the process a lot and reduced the frustration levels!
Maybe I should take my own advice and get a lesson on gybing!

HowlingDog
WA, 61 posts
15 Oct 2009 3:20PM
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Interesting thread, I recon the quick release method is the go also. We do similar drills diving, getting gear on/off in stressful situations. But a couple of verbals drills with unhooking / un clasping twisted gear on dry land with your eyes shut should help out. With a chat about what to do if you feel panic setting in. Kids are pretty quick at picking up on simple drills like this. I doubt this would put anyone off windsurfing. Fore warned fore armed etc.

FlickySpinny
WA, 657 posts
15 Oct 2009 3:23PM
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Windxtasy said...

FlickySpinny said...

Helicopter point is a good one, but you've got to take into consideration that people die when that happens, hence there is good reason for the drill.



Has anyone drowned by getting caught under the sail?
I'd be surprised if it hasn't happened.


Stats? My point is that everyone's got terrible stories to tell and everyone got out ok.

Gestalt
QLD, 14627 posts
15 Oct 2009 5:27PM
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evlPanda said...

^ What he said. All this training, associations, levels, allegiance to the Queen of England, exams and stuff really take the fun out of it. More like "clubbies" than "surfies".

Has anybody used the "Here's a shortboard, now learn to waterstart" method?


i'm wondering if the people who got caught under their sails are also the one's that didn't get lessons?

only time i've been pinned under my sail is in the surf.

i don't get the reluctance to get lessons. i guarantee i could have anyone sailing and gybing on beginner's kit within 2 hours. people get lessons when they go snow skiing but refuse with windsurfing.

take myt advice and get a lesson, just to have someone watching as a third person can make a huge difference.

as for red tape. it's there, we deal with it and then we get on with it.

Windxtasy
WA, 4017 posts
15 Oct 2009 5:20PM
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Gestalt said...



i'm wondering if the people who got caught under their sails are also the one's that didn't get lessons?
Lessons aren't goint to help if the issue of getting caught under the sail isn't even mentioned...

only time i've been pinned under my sail is in the surf.
It doesn't happen often but when it does it is scary. It has only happened to me once that I recall, but it was quite frightening.

i don't get the reluctance to get lessons.
Embarrassment at someone watching you do something incompetently and critiquing you. Kids are used to it. Adults aren't. Adults are used to learning things on their own.

i guarantee i could have anyone sailing and gybing on beginner's kit within 2 hours. people get lessons when they go snow skiing but refuse with windsurfing.
True.

take myt advice and get a lesson, just to have someone watching as a third person can make a huge difference.
OK then...


Gestalt
QLD, 14627 posts
15 Oct 2009 8:51PM
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Windxtasy said...

Select to expand quote
Gestalt said...



i'm wondering if the people who got caught under their sails are also the one's that didn't get lessons?
Lessons aren't goint to help if the issue of getting caught under the sail isn't even mentioned...




well, the way i was taught it was mentioned to mention the quick release. there is more to it than just teaching this though.

good instruction, includes theory (reading the water) as well as technique (stance)and also rigging and this greatly reduces the chances of catapults.

intermediate lessons the first thing you do is spend the first half hour going through rigging as you can bet the rig is not set properly and contributing to falling off. also for intermediates ie. shortboards i taught to get in the front strap before hooking in. as mentioned above by some of the others.

all of those things reduce catapults.

but for beginners trying the harness for the "first" time using a board that is too small is a sure way to go over the handle bars. start them off in light winds on big boards and don't go into the straps until comfortable.

CROWEMAN
VIC, 268 posts
17 Oct 2009 5:42PM
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Select to expand quote
Windxtasy said...

[




You know, I have one of those quick release harnesses, and I didn't even think to use it until afterwards...


Really interesting thread - very helpful to an early intermediate. Haven't been caught under the sail, but I had a pretty nervy experience in the bay last summer - hook caught in front footstrap whilst jumping back on to uphaul and caught by a big swell. Board tipped over and pinned me underneath. The quick release on my NP waist harness came in very handy - it works.

CROWEMAN
VIC, 268 posts
17 Oct 2009 5:45PM
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Windxtasy said...

Select to expand quote
[

You know, I have one of those quick release harnesses, and I didn't even think to use it until afterwards...


Really interesting thread - very helpful to an early intermediate. Haven't been caught under the sail, but I had a pretty nervy experience in the bay last summer - hook caught in front footstrap whilst jumping back on to uphaul and caught by a big swell. Board tipped over and pinned me underneath. The quick release on my NP waist harness came in very handy - it works.



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"learning to use a harness" started by Windxtasy