Forums > Windsurfing General

learning to use a harness

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Created by Windxtasy > 9 months ago, 3 Oct 2009
Windxtasy
WA, 4017 posts
3 Oct 2009 2:32PM
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My son is about to resume his windsurfing. He hasn't used a harness before but is ready.

When learning to use the harness, would you recommend he get used to the harness first, then try footstraps, or learn both together?

Start with long lines and go shorter, or use lines the right length from the start?

Gestalt
QLD, 14627 posts
3 Oct 2009 5:37PM
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hi windxtasy,

as long as his stance is good it's time to try out the harness.

a waist harness is best for learning.

i would try harness first and then footstraps. the harness will allow him to extend his sessions.

lines at correct length also (ie. long), it is a little harder to hook in but it will make it easier to unhook and force him to hang out to maintain the correct stance. his arms should be straight when in the sailing stance.

depends on what gear he is on but you will most likely start with the boom around shoulder height. as his confidence grows and he moves back into the straps you will need to raise the boom a little to prevent the board from rounding up.

once he is ready for the straps he should use the front foot strap first.

nebbian
WA, 6277 posts
3 Oct 2009 3:39PM
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I'd say harness before footstraps (you need to learn how to control a catapult without breaking an ankle)

Correct length from the start.

Good luck with it

[Edit: Looks like you beat me to it Gestalt! ]

Gestalt
QLD, 14627 posts
3 Oct 2009 5:44PM
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nebbian said...

I'd say harness before footstraps (you need to learn how to control a catapult without breaking an ankle)

Correct length from the start.

Good luck with it

[Edit: Looks like you beat me to it Gestalt! ]


lol. not by much.

i wanted to add. to avoid the catapults when learning a good tip is to compress as the big gusts hit. ie. squat down... don't forget to resume the pelvis in stance after the gust hits. sailing along with your bum habging out is not good.

Glitch
QLD, 292 posts
3 Oct 2009 6:11PM
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I'd go foot straps first. Catapults in the harness are not fun.

mineral1
WA, 4564 posts
3 Oct 2009 4:27PM
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Glitch said...

I'd go foot straps first. Catapults in the harness are not fun.


If you can coach him to go this way from start, then he will feel a lot better than some of us who didnt, and as Glitch said, it aint fun

nick0
NSW, 510 posts
3 Oct 2009 6:51PM
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take the fin out of board plug the sail in and let him use foot straps and harness together ... move the board around ...( upwind,downwind) let him get a feel for it all

dieseagull
NSW, 225 posts
6 Oct 2009 11:18AM
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Put the footstraps at the most inboard position you can. Get him some long harness lines and/or a waist harness and he should be able to harness in while in the normal sub-planing stance. This setup makes it easy to learn footstraps and harness at the same time.

To help prevent catapulting when you are hooked-in but out of the foot straps, brace your front foot against the mast base.

Leman
VIC, 672 posts
6 Oct 2009 11:35AM
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Catapults unfortunately are part of the learning process. Time to buy that nose protector I think.

Unsure if it is best way but I originally got used to the harness in non-planing speeds (without footstraps). At these speeds catapults are pretty soft. Biggest risk is harness hook into sail. If he is planing, out of footstraps could get nasty.

Windxtasy
WA, 4017 posts
6 Oct 2009 10:12AM
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Thanks everyone.
Interesting range of opinions, and I suspect they are all right!

The idea of taking the fin out is interesting, why did that get red thumbed?
Doesn't it work?

evlPanda
NSW, 9207 posts
6 Oct 2009 3:13PM
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Don't forget to make him aware he will be trapped under the sail at least once, hooked in. That's always fun. Best do some controlled, panic-free demos in shallow water first.

Gestalt
QLD, 14627 posts
6 Oct 2009 2:21PM
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^^

the board needs the fin for tracking ability. most beginners boards have soft rails and rely on the fin or centreboard to balance against the sail and drive the board forward.

FlickySpinny
WA, 657 posts
6 Oct 2009 2:16PM
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evlPanda said...

Don't forget to make him aware he will be trapped under the sail at least once, hooked in. That's always fun. Best do some controlled, panic-free demos in shallow water first.


Great way to put him off ever hooking in there mate.

That's like saying to a learner driver on the first day behind the wheel: "one day you're going to have an accident, let's have a small one today so you can used to it."

For the record, I've NEVER been stuck in my harness under the sail, and I've been sailing for nearly 20 years. Maybe I'm just lucky.

EDIT: In order to add something useful:

Waist harness, long harness lines, lighter wind conditions, out of the footstraps, getting used to hooking in and unhooking.

Progress towards planing conditions, hooking in, not in the footstraps.

Then work on the footstraps. The reason the footstraps come last is that by hooking in you are taking the weight off your feet, bringing the board out of the water and on to the plane, and making it easier to get in to the footstraps when you do get going. That's the way of the RYA Fast Forward programme, and it makes sense to me.

nebbian
WA, 6277 posts
6 Oct 2009 2:35PM
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Windxtasy said...
The idea of taking the fin out is interesting, why did that get red thumbed?


I think Nick0 was talking about practicing on land, hence the need to take out the fin.

I've been stuck under the sail a couple of times, practicing first would be helpful so you know what to do when winded, dazed and not thinking clearly...

ClaireS
8 posts
7 Oct 2009 1:41PM
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evlPanda said...

Don't forget to make him aware he will be trapped under the sail at least once, hooked in. That's always fun. Best do some controlled, panic-free demos in shallow water first.


That is good advice, speaking as someone who in recent years went through that stage of learning and had moments of panic and flapping under the sail. I laughed about it...but only much later

evlPanda
NSW, 9207 posts
7 Oct 2009 4:47PM
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FlickySpinny said...
For the record, I've NEVER been stuck in my harness under the sail, and I've been sailing for nearly 20 years. Maybe I'm just lucky.


Never?

Windxtasy
WA, 4017 posts
7 Oct 2009 6:17PM
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FlickySpinny said...

evlPanda said...

Don't forget to make him aware he will be trapped under the sail at least once, hooked in. That's always fun. Best do some controlled, panic-free demos in shallow water first.



For the record, I've NEVER been stuck in my harness under the sail, and I've been sailing for nearly 20 years. Maybe I'm just lucky.




I had a nasty experience with that just a couple of weeks ago.
As close to drowning as I would ever want to be. Frightening. I couldn't get unhooked, couldn't get my head either side of the sail, no air underneath, deep water, the sail being driven into the water by a stiff breeze. Eventually decided I was just going to have to use my hands to get the harness line untangled. Didn't even think about the quick release on the harness itself until later.
I didn't tell my family about that. Wouldn't want to frighten them.

A controlled panic-free demo may be a good idea...

ClaireS
8 posts
8 Oct 2009 9:35AM
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[I had a nasty experience with that just a couple of weeks ago.
As close to drowning as I would ever want to be. Frightening. I couldn't get unhooked, couldn't get my head either side of the sail, no air underneath, deep water, the sail being driven into the water by a stiff breeze. Eventually decided I was just going to have to use my hands to get the harness line untangled. Didn't even think about the quick release on the harness itself until later.
I didn't tell my family about that. Wouldn't want to frighten them.

A controlled panic-free demo may be a good idea...


Yes, I think so...your experience doesn't sound fun...and I think when you are learning something new, there is so much to think about and you tend to be nervous and a bit stressed in certain situations which are a bit out of your comfort zone anyway (my experience learning to windsurf)...add getting stuck under the sail to the mix, and a calm reaction is unlikely to follow! Also, I think sometimes it's hard for people teaching beginners (unless a qualified instructor) to remember how it felt back at that stage!

Haircut
QLD, 6490 posts
8 Oct 2009 12:26PM
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just do it topless and you'll be surprised how many will assist you

ClaireS
8 posts
8 Oct 2009 11:07AM
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ha, I'll keep that in mind

FlickySpinny
WA, 657 posts
9 Oct 2009 8:18AM
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evlPanda said...

FlickySpinny said...
For the record, I've NEVER been stuck in my harness under the sail, and I've been sailing for nearly 20 years. Maybe I'm just lucky.


Never?




Never.

I am a RYA qualified instructor as well, and I've just spent the winter at Club Vass in Greece. The trick I'm working on at the moment is a clew-first puneta (clew-fist switch-stance spock), which I think qualifies me as having windsurfed long enough to talk about this.

I agree that showing people how to be calm when they are under the sail (NOT hooked in) to find their way to the edge is a good idea.

I maintain that teaching students that they're going to get stuck in their harness underwater when there is a natural major reluctance to hook in is not a great teaching method and can put people off moving to the next level. The RYA do not include this as part of their teaching method, and I agree completely with it.

oldie
VIC, 356 posts
9 Oct 2009 2:28PM
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Even swimming towards the top of the sail when stuck underneath tends to panic a newby. Get to practice and verbalize a release drill like when skydiving, I reckon.
"Grab hook, pull lines down, release forward" or whatever..
Typical beginner situation- can't unhook as board heading up, backwinded sail rotates and twists lines, sailor underneath with board upside down on top. Not funny.

FlickySpinny
WA, 657 posts
9 Oct 2009 1:10PM
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And just how does that qualify for a red thumb?

An expert windsurfer and professional instructor expressing his personal opinion (which happens to be in line with the line taken by the largest windsurf training organisation in the world) in a reasoned argument is not suitable for a red thumb.

If you don't agree, then that's fine, but don't red thumb something like that.

[Edit: thanks to whoever gave me a green thumb to cancel out that red. Point still stands though.]

Gestalt
QLD, 14627 posts
9 Oct 2009 3:19PM
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i took away the red thumb flicky,

i was an instructor for 4 years so i agree with what you have said.

evlPanda
NSW, 9207 posts
9 Oct 2009 5:04PM
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I green thumbed your comment, but red-thumbed your reaction to the red thumb : )

So there is honestly no mention of how to react when trapped under a sail during training? It does seem odd as it is probably about the only dangerous aspect of the sport, alongside collisions with others and obtstacles.

And experts and professionals aside most of us recall being trapped or still ocassionally do get trapped under the sail. It's only for a moment but usually happens when you are overpowered, exhausted and you've just been catapulted, sometimes with some slight winding thrown in for fun.

FlickySpinny
WA, 657 posts
9 Oct 2009 3:54PM
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Gestalt said...

i took away the red thumb flicky,

i was an instructor for 4 years so i agree with what you have said.



Thank you Gestalt

garyk
QLD, 277 posts
9 Oct 2009 6:29PM
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I reckon getting trapped under the sail is very important to mention.

It is the worst in knee deep water and you get pinned down knee deep water is where you learn all these things to.

I still think of that day and its like over 15 years since it happened to me.

garyk
QLD, 277 posts
9 Oct 2009 6:34PM
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Nicko is on the right track with setting it up on land with no fin to get the right stance with all the correct setting ect, then go on the water and it will be alot faster learning.

LeStef
ACT, 514 posts
9 Oct 2009 10:44PM
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I think that what is good to make him understand is that using the harness is not just for resting the arms, but for making the sailing much more efficient (control) and fast (less weight).
I just can't sail without it now !

Windxtasy
WA, 4017 posts
11 Oct 2009 6:45PM
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I like this idea.
A verbalised release drill.
I agree practicing getting stuck under the sail would be unnecessarily offputting, but there is a need to mention that it does happen, and to have rehearsed (verbally at least) what needs to be done could help avoid panic when hooked in and stuck under the sail.
Being hooked in and caught under the sail can be very scary and potentially life-threatening. I agree with Evlpanda it is the most dangerous aspect of the sport.

oldie said...

Even swimming towards the top of the sail when stuck underneath tends to panic a newby. Get to practice and verbalize a release drill like when skydiving, I reckon.
"Grab hook, pull lines down, release forward" or whatever..
Typical beginner situation- can't unhook as board heading up, backwinded sail rotates and twists lines, sailor underneath with board upside down on top. Not funny.




NotWal
QLD, 7430 posts
11 Oct 2009 9:17PM
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FlickySpinny said...

evlPanda said...

FlickySpinny said...
For the record, I've NEVER been stuck in my harness under the sail, and I've been sailing for nearly 20 years. Maybe I'm just lucky.


Never?




Never.

I am a RYA qualified instructor as well, and I've just spent the winter at Club Vass in Greece. The trick I'm working on at the moment is a clew-first puneta (clew-fist switch-stance spock), which I think qualifies me as having windsurfed long enough to talk about this. No more qualified than anyone else. Defiantly not more than someone who HAS been stuck under a sail.

I agree that showing people how to be calm when they are under the sail (NOT hooked in) to find their way to the edge is a good idea.

I maintain that teaching students that they're going to get stuck in their harness underwater when there is a natural major reluctance to hook in is not a great teaching method and can put people off moving to the next level. The RYA do not include this as part of their teaching method, and I agree completely with it.

That's like saying you shouldn't teach defensive driving because it might put people off. The fact that it isn't included in the RYA syllabus is neither here nor there. Presenting the proposal as "teaching students that they're going to get stuck in their harness underwater" is argumentative and silly. No one is going to be put off by being taught a safety drill.



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"learning to use a harness" started by Windxtasy