Windsurfer LT smaller sail with LT boom/mast

I am thinking of getting another sail which offers more control at stronger winds - ideally using the same C40 CC mast and same windsurfer lt boom.

Windsurfer sells a 4.7 storm sail in europe but not here in Australia. That is an option, but it retains the oldschool bermuda shape which probably has less gust control which is more important when the wind gets strong.

Does anyone know any smaller sails which rig fine on the C40-CC windsurfer mast and maybe even are a bit chubbier so tolerate the 180cm boom of the LT? I very much like the one design with having as little gear as possible and definetely dont want to carry multiple booms and fiddle around with mast extensions- though could maybe get a second mast.

The 4.5m is a trainer sail which I don't even think comes from the Windsurfer company. Just looking at the general shape I presume it performs rather poorly. I think before I get that I may a well get the official storm sail next time I am in europe.

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Gestalt said..
I've know people with them. I've asked them their thoughts.

oh yes please.

i asked them before and they just said it behaves like a smaller version of the 5.7. They didnt say anything about the trainer sail - i presume as it is not affiliated with them.

Did they say why they dont like the small sail? Once it blows 25 knots the 5.7 is just too big. and for anything above 17-18 knots is probs too much but I am still learning.

I am from europe and go back usually twice as a year or so so thats not a problem (in fact I was a seabreeze member already before I lived in Australia)

When my wife and I were running the Windsurfer class years ago, we got Barracuda sails to make 4.5s and 3.5s for kids. The 3.5 didn't work brilliantly because everything was designed to use the standard mast and boom, but the extra size of the 4.5 made it a brilliant sail. They were exactly like the 5.7s in panel and batten layout and a top lightweight like Jessica Crisp could use a 4.5 in strong winds and beat everyone. They were a low-stretch Dacron so you couldn't kill them with a bulldozer.

We bought a dozen or so for a club we were running and they made a huge difference in the ability of people to sail well and have fun in strong winds, compared to old pinheads or standard shortboard training sails, because they were light and powerful but had decent gust response.

The Trainer 4.5 that has been sold recently is far inferior in my humble opinion. It only has the full head batten so the leach shape is gutless and in general it lacks power and speed and I think is a bit twitchy as well. It is cheap and tough.

The European 4.7 Storm Sail that was demonstrated at the 2024 worlds is very similar to the Barracouta 4.5s, in that it's got the same panel layout and batten layout as the 5.7, but has a slightly longer luff than the Barracouta sail. It was getting very good reviews and looked very good. If it's like the Couta and like it appears, it will be lovely in a big breeze. I didn't realise it wasn't available here but for anything but very basic beginner work, I'd jump on the 4.7 Storm Sail one or ring up Neil Tasker from Barracouta and see if he still has the patterns for the 4.5s somewhere and can knock one up. I'm surprised the 4.7 isn't class legal yet.

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BSN101 said..
I use a NP wave sail with P mast for my kids and when I'm teaching. Short boom & ply sail makes it very easy for the user and you can pick up these sail quite cheaply. Small sail & extra long boom won't give you high wind control.

Have you sailed longboards at a high level, or tried a good 4.5-4.7m Windsurfer LT or OD sail to compare it to a wavesail?

We taught many dozens of people on Windsurfers and tried all different types of sail. Plenty of people could not effectively sail with a wavesail on a Windsurfer in strong winds, but could have a great time when we put them on a Barracouta 4.5.

On a longboard, a longer boom means a lower centre of effort which is useful. It also means that you have more leverage to steer, because if you have a short boom you can't move the CLR back and forward enough to turn a 12' board easily.

The Barracouta 4.5s weighed less than 2kg with battens and the new 4.7s would be similar. These sails also have more depth which suits longboards because they need more grunt.

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Chris 249 said..

BSN101 said..
I use a NP wave sail with P mast for my kids and when I'm teaching. Short boom & ply sail makes it very easy for the user and you can pick up these sail quite cheaply. Small sail & extra long boom won't give you high wind control.

Have you sailed longboards at a high level, or tried a good 4.5-4.7m Windsurfer LT or OD sail to compare it to a wavesail?

We taught many dozens of people on Windsurfers and tried all different types of sail. Plenty of people could not effectively sail with a wavesail on a Windsurfer in strong winds, but could have a great time when we put them on a Barracouta 4.5.

On a longboard, a longer boom means a lower centre of effort which is useful. It also means that you have more leverage to steer, because if you have a short boom you can't move the CLR back and forward enough to turn a 12' board easily.

The Barracouta 4.5s weighed less than 2kg with battens and the new 4.7s would be similar. These sails also have more depth which suits longboards because they need more grunt.

Hey Chris, I did the LT Worlds in 23/24 in Perth. I'm an instructor here in WA for the SW windsurfing School too. Ive done over 22knots on my LT with OG sail and also a similar speed with NP Fusion 6.0. I've had great success with adults learning on the LT and the wave sail reduces uphaul time dramatically. I use NP Fusions 5.5,5.0,6.0. you must remember to match boom length to the sail. An OG boom on small sail will be a pig to try and use. No problems turning the board, tacks or gybes. I like that the LT has amazing glide and can move very efficiently even with a 4.5, ie plenty of grunt for a beginner.
Ive not used the Windsurfer Storm Sail although I learnt with a Windrush 4.2 triangle piece of cloth.

The Lt is very flexible. My son and a friends wife using 5.6 severne wave sails on the LT and another guy was using bigger ezzy slalom sails.

Hi All,

Cobra is currently in the process of R&D on a new 5m sail aimed at the Youth division which could also be applicable for smaller sailors and cruisers. It is largely based on the regatta 5.7 sail, with a full length top batten and two leach battens. Performance has been kept at the forefront with this design.
I've done a bit of sailing with it and it works great in strong breeze, barely notice the speed difference! (75kg rider). Significantly more control in the gusts and a bit lighter to pick up out of the water.
It rigs on the current One design boom and mast, with an adjustable turban.
The final construction is still being decided on (mylar/dacron).

My sample is currently up in QLD with Denis Winstanley being tested. I believe there are a few being tested in Europe too. Should have further feedback soon.

Cheers,
Matt





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SouthernSurfNZ said..
Great to see a smaller LT sail. My daughter is just a bit too small to sail with the 5.7. Still early days for her but this would be ideal for her.

Put a modern wave sail in her hands and she won't give the board back. On the OH when she's bigger/stronger. Get her hooked with efficient & light sail to maximise STOKE

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BSN101 said..

SouthernSurfNZ said..
Great to see a smaller LT sail. My daughter is just a bit too small to sail with the 5.7. Still early days for her but this would be ideal for her.

Put a modern wave sail in her hands and she won't give the board back. On the OH when she's bigger/stronger. Get her hooked with efficient & light sail to maximise STOKE

She's been using my 4.7 wave sail on a lightweight carbon RDM mast, but it would be nice if she could come racing with us on a sail that is officially recognised.

Maybe a bit of track, but is a smaller sail required because wind strength causes the board to round up?
watching spotty at coro's in 25knts standard kit.. No problems.
looks like technique solves it.

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Kit3kat said..
I have also kited with a 9m kite in 40 knot gusts. That is despite the kite at times flying non-leading ege forward. With modern depower, board technique etc everything is possible. I am sure Robby Naish can go out with his 7m sail in 30 knots too and but for me mere mortal that's not gonna work.

What I can tell you is that I had the LT out in 20-25 knots with lots of direction changing gusts today. It was basically impossible to get going - The default position is impossible to hold due to the gusts yanking the sail left and right. and the bermuda sail is more flabby anyway. When you pull the sail even just 5-10 degrees from the default position it generates too much power. If I try and pull further I can't reliably hook in due to the sheer amount of force being generated. I put the harness lines superfar forward but even then I just didn't really have the strenght to pull the sail in enough. I also had problems with my stance as I stood too close to the mast (due to only needing to slightly pull on the sail to generate a lot of power).

I also couldn't really beachstart because the sail would generate immediately so much lift it'd yank me off - if i was being really careful the sail would end up being tilted too much backwards and the board would immediately spin upwind during the starting process.

So yeah.... eventually the sail just becomes too big. More experience obviously helps lol. I don't think there's anything the LT does better to tolerate higher wind than any other windsurfboard. the only thing perhaps is that the longer boom means it's a bit easier to tune the power in and out.
The board itself seems ok. I think the fin is a bit undersized on the LT as you have the huge daggerboard to generate more resistance if needed.

Sorry, but that's not the LT having problems. It's a specific board that needs specific longboard LT techniques. In winds where you can get 22+ on the GPS you should be able to go upwind with one hand on the boom and the whole kit locked together.

Put it this way - if you switched from a mountain bike to a road-racing bike without changing your stance, you'd be on the road with a bloody face and spitting out broken teeth in 10 seconds. If you tried to sail a skiff like you sail a Laser you wouldn't get off the beach. If you tried to sail an F18 cat like a Hobie 14 the rescue boat would be your only way home. Different breeds need different moves.

I'm not sure that the "default position" means, and the "bermudan sail" (???? all windsurfer sails are "bermudan") isn't flabby of set right. The general setting is to put the boom on 40 and, if overpowered, pull the outhaul until there is about 10mm between the extreme outside edge of the sail and the inner point of the boom. Then provide heaps of downhaul.

In a breeze your feet should be nowhere near the mast, particularly because the further back you can get from the mast, the further back you are along the booms and therefore the more leverage you have on the rig. Going upwind in a breeze the body is leaning back towards the wind, further than on a shortboard because the LT's deeper sail has more depth (power) and more drag, both of which you need to counter by leaning back towards the wind.

In strong winds the front foot should be about 40 CM BEHIND the mast and on the windward rail - not even in the same postcode as the mast. The mast is raked aft (as seen from the side) about 20-30 degrees and sheeted in hard. If you look at the boom when going upwind, the back of the boom should be vertically above the tail of the board and, when the rig is heeled hard to windward, above the windward corner of the tail of the board. So the sail is sheeted in hard, and you're leaning it well back so you are well back on the booms with great leverage.

Putting the harness lines "superfar forward" is completely and utterly the wrong way to go. They should be well aft. If you have narrow harness lines, maybe 15cm apart, in strong winds many of the top guys have the aft end of the harness lines at, or just in front of, the vertical mylar seam that bisects the window. Others who win nationals carry wider lines and have the aft harness line behind the window in a breeze, as in the pic below.

If the board still rounds up, kick the centreboard up until the trailing edge that sticks out through the deck is vertical. That reduces the tendency to luff up, and the board will now cruise upwind. The pic below was taken in significantly stronger winds than the strongest day of the Perth worlds, where people were doing 22+ knots during the races (ie not at optimal reaching angles) and the board was totally under control apart from getting a little bit crossed up in the strongest three or four gusts of the day. The sailor was waiting for operations on each hand so didn't have anything like full strength.

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Kit3kat said..



i never said that it was an lt problem.

My apologies, I took it the wrong way.

" therefore the more leverage you have on the rig." dang, that makes sense though for holding down the power. so by holding onto the front (to lower the angle) i probably made everything much worse.

Yep, you've got to sheet in hard and that allows the luff to fill properly, which moves the centre of effort back and balances up the rig.

Good luck with it! :-)

You don't yank the sail back because for maximum pace (and imho ease) your arms should be pretty straight anyway. Coming out of a tack you are leaning back as the sail fills. However as with gybing in strong winds, you don't really have to pull the sail in because as you switch your body and the rig from wide to side, the mast should be close to your body so that when you move into the new sailing posiition the mast is already leaning upwind or at least vertical , with the weight well balanced.

So as you're grabbing the booms on the new side, the sail is sort of pivoting so that your back arm (as you hit the upwind stance) is already largely extended and the sail is not coming into the sailing angle by you pulling the back hand in, but by you straightening the front arm out. The pivoting action is the front arm being extended to match the already-extended back arm, not the back arm trying to drag the back in.

It's also important because if you sheet on slowly then only the clew is catching the wind and that is heading the board back upwind and moving your body into a position angled at an angle across the board instead of in line with the centreline.

The same applies in gybes - as the rig flips keep it close to your body, lock your back arm in right position on the new gybe, and THEN get the sail into the correct angle by straightening the front arm into its correct position. It's far faster, lets the wind do all the work of pivoting the rig to the correct angle, and it avoids getting into the situation where the rig tilts to leeward and it all gets really hard because it's all at arm's reach.

In strong winds you can just use your arms for a little while (ie when sailing into a beach in a strong and gusty wind, or doing a short tack, but the power of the harness is an enormous help.