Considering updating sails and would like to get 'real world' opinions of the KA Kult* and Severne Gator/Renegade ranges (sizes 5.3 and smaller) from anyone that has experience with any of these sails. Intended use would be for med-high wind freeride blasting. Comments appreciated re wind range, control/stability/handling in stronger winds, pros & cons, etc.
(*Note: original forum post read 'KA Kaos' but should have been 'KA Kult')
Gazman, Kaos is a wave sail so probably wouldn't consider it for what you want. In the KA range for high wind blasting in choppy water the Koyote is great, if you are going to be venturing into waves as well then the Kult.
I use a 5.3 Koyote for blasting, bump and jump on Port Phillip Bay and it is fabulous, with 7 battens it's really stable for a camless.
No experience with the Severne's so can't help there.
Seeya Martin
Thanks Martin,
Did consider the 5.3 Koyote, would have liked to have one in a smaller size around 4.5 as well but 5.3 is the smallest in the range. I would have thought that when you go down to a 4.5 then a 'wave biased' sail (ie Kaos or Kult) would work just as well as a 'dedicated freeride' sail (ie Koyote). I've only used wave sails in that size for the past 15 years so wouldn't really know the difference!
Go the kult, I use the 5.8 for blasting and wave and it is just as bullet proof as the kaos.
Not sure about the Gator and Renegade but I found in the past that the Severne sails were very sensitive to rigging adjustment. Good in most respects but at times too touchy so you spent all days tweaking instead of enjoying your days sailing. They very felt "just right".
KA will give you a good deal as well ex factory.
I have a 2007 4.7 and 5.3 Kaos and a 5.8 Kult you can give a try if you like. I'm in Fremantle so give drop me a PM.
Hi Gazman , I agree with TimB if you want something 4.5ish I would go the 4.7 Kult. The Kaos and Kult are similar but the Kaos has a dacron luff panel which makes the sail alot softer. I find it a bit spongy for blasting type sailing but it is great for wave riding.
The 5.3 Koyote has surprising top end and you can use it in alot of wind. Due to the seven battens and the fact they are stiffer glass tube not rod, it remains really stable and doesn't get back handed even when really overpowered. I find I am still on my 5.3 when most guy's are on 4.5 Wave sails .The downside being the tube battens are more fragile so if you are jumping / pulling tricks and crashing a fair bit I would probably stay away
The Kult doesn't have quite as good top end as the Koyote with 5 rod battens , but is still a really tuneable sail and will handle alot of downhaul and outhaul in overpowered conditions.
Soin the KA range I think the 4.7 Kult is the right choice.
I haven't used a Severne for four years, but my old 2004( I think) Blade was a much loved sail.
Seeya Martin
I have a 5.8 Kult and a 6.5 Severne NCX. I love them both but the Severne is my favourite.
Its easier to rig and seems easier to handle.
Soon I am looking at getting a smaller fast sail and will probably go with a 5.5 Severne Overdrive.
In saying that, the Kult is great for blasting along and can take a fair bit of abuse. Not as fast as the other sails though as it has a shallower profile.
I agree with wave sail for a 5.0 and below for hi wind B&J: however you describe more freeride situation.
The wave sails above (and indeed most wavesails) may not be stable enough for true freeride so I was going to suggest a freeride no cam for you. I waited to see what others said, lest I confuse the issue 
I hate it when you ask for opinions about 2 sails or 2 boards etc, and people suggest others, but I will break my rule 
Think about a Simmer Crossover: they are a wave-freestyle sail but are sooo stable they are a damn fine freeride. Wave construction but more stable than 90% of wavesails. The reviews when they came out raves about phenomenal wind range.
Your predicament unfortunately pretty much is freeride means mono for stability but the wind you intend to sail in may mean x-ply wave sails 
i got the kult in the 6.4, 5.8 and 5.3 and have ridden the kaos in 4.7 and 4.2
can't compare with the severnes because i haven't used them but severne clearly make great sails as do KA.
the kult is a very stable sail and has a great wind range plus it is very powerfull.
it likes a good amount of downhaul and outhaul when rigged and when rigged with the correct outhaul feels slippery through the wind and cranks to windward.
looking at the spec of the gator in the smaller sizes i'd say it is more a pure wave sail than the kult. ie. shorter boom. (more comparable to the Kaos).
the longer boom on the kult in my mind is the real difference between the kult and the kaos. a longer boom makes a sail less twitchy (more stable) and "usually" gives it a little more help going to windward.
this is what mark oz is saying about stability and i agree completely.
that said, and as markaus says for less than 5.0m a wave sail is my choice for freeride because by that time it's more bump and jump. then the shorter booms are an advantage. ie. easier gybes, better control in the air.
something that may influence your decission is your weight.
Mark_aust said: "Think about a Simmer Crossover: they are a wave-freestyle sail but are sooo stable they are a damn fine freeride. Wave construction but more stable than 90% of wavesails. The reviews when they came out raves about phenomenal wind range. Your predicament unfortunately pretty much is freeride means mono for stability but the wind you intend to sail in may mean x-ply wave sails"
I definately want x-ply sails in 4.5/4.7 & 5.3 sizes, though I don't get into any wave-sailing or extreme bump & jump due to local conditions (south coast WA). Boards mag test gave the Crossover a good review and I did consider them, though apparently they're not all x-ply (Simmer x-type II is all x-ply freeride/slalom sail and looks hot!). Who currently sells Simmer in WA? (I used Simmer many years ago which I got from SOS).
Gestalt said: "looking at the spec of the gator in the smaller sizes i'd say it is more a pure wave sail than the kult. ie. shorter boom. (more comparable to the Kaos). The longer boom on the kult in my mind is the real difference between the kult and the kaos. a longer boom makes a sail less twitchy (more stable) and "usually" gives it a little more help going to windward."
According to specs, 08 Gator 5.3 has a 173cm boom length whilst the 08 Kaos 5.3 has a 174cm boom length so I'm not sure whether you read the specs correctly!
Totally agree with your comments about short boom vs long boom and how it affects performance/handling, though I did notice that the 08 Koyote 5.3 slalom/freeride sail has a shorter boom length than the 08 Kaos 5.3 wave sail (Koyote 168cm vs Kaos 174cm). Would this mean that the 5.3 Koyote is more twitchy than the 5.3 Kaos?
and: "something that may influence your decision is your weight."
I weigh 75kg
Main deciding factor with sail choice is mast compatibility, I currently use a Pryde X6 430 mast with a X6 400 top section for my smaller sails and have no plans to change sails as well as mast at present.
Not really sure how the KA or Simmer sails rig on a standard dia flex-top mast but I have been told that the Severne Gators appear to set very well on the NP X6.
Hi Gazman,
As much as I'd love to get you on one of our Gator's, I gotta tell you that the mast you're intending to use is probably the least suitable of anything out there! Visually the sail would probably seem to set ok, but the flexier top section would overly loosen the upper leech giving you less bottom-end power. And the stiffer lower section wouldn't allow the lower part of the sail to beathe as intended which would make the sail stiff and back-handed in the gusts. So overall the windrange would be a substantially reduced.
The bend curve on the Pryde masts is a little unusual so the sails that'll really suit it best are Prydes. Most of the other sails that have been brought up are all designed around masts that are a little stiffer in the top, and flexier in the bottom ("constant curve").
Ben.
Select to expand quote[quote
Gestalt said: "looking at the spec of the gator in the smaller sizes i'd say it is more a pure wave sail than the kult. ie. shorter boom. (more comparable to the Kaos). The longer boom on the kult in my mind is the real difference between the kult and the kaos. a longer boom makes a sail less twitchy (more stable) and "usually" gives it a little more help going to windward."
According to specs, 08 Gator 5.3 has a 173cm boom length whilst the 08 Kaos 5.3 has a 174cm boom length so I'm not sure whether you read the specs correctly!
that's right, as i pointed out the gator boom length is very similar to the kaos boom length. which is why i said the gator is a more pure wave sail than the kult and suggested the gator is probably more comparable to the kaos. ie. same boom length.
Totally agree with your comments about short boom vs long boom and how it affects performance/handling, though I did notice that the 08 Koyote 5.3 slalom/freeride sail has a shorter boom length than the 08 Kaos 5.3 wave sail (Koyote 168cm vs Kaos 174cm). Would this mean that the 5.3 Koyote is more twitchy than the 5.3 Kaos?
i would doubt it. the koyote is a different beast. ie. more battens and stiffer and i would suggest more twist at the head to match a more slalom orientated profile which reduces the twitchyness. but i haven't used a koyote. one thing about KA sails is they are extremely stable......
and: "something that may influence your decision is your weight."
I weigh 75kg
Main deciding factor with sail choice is mast compatibility, I currently use a Pryde X6 430 mast with a X6 400 top section for my smaller sails and have no plans to change sails as well as mast at present.
can i ask if you knew that why you didn't mention it originally? you original post asked for feedback on either th kult or the gator. i guess i shouldn't have assumed you had the right mast
Not really sure how the KA or Simmer sails rig on a standard dia flex-top mast but I have been told that the Severne Gators appear to set very well on the NP X6.
i use standard dia powerex masts. a mate on the goldy uses a north mast on his koyote and likes it. i like powerex on my kults etc but i haven't rigged a KA sail with a NP mast. my gut feeling is i wouldn't do it.
seems your limited to NP sails.
the alpha is an awesome sail. i've used one a few times and found it vey stable, fast off the mark and light.
Koyote has a stepped (cut away) clew , thus the shorter boom length.
Ben's wise words in relation to Severne sails on Pryde masts are just as applicable to KA sails as well. NP Masts on KA are not ideal as they are flex top not true constant curve. As he was suggesting you really need to rig a sail on the mast (or very close equivalent) that it was designed for. For the Kult that would be KA, Powerex or Severne masts, to name 3, that will work fine.
Regards Martin
Maybe Baldrick would like to abuse me again for my opinion that NP sails and masts are very specific and don't rig well when mix n matched?
Gazman the Simmers are still at SOS. The Crossover is all mono. The X-type I believe is very slalom - freeride so maybe not what you are after, and the X-flex is a DTL wavesail so perhaps not suited to you as the in betwen sail (Crossover) is not xply (as much as I highly recommend the brand their model range may not suit you).
The poms are big fans of the Tushingham Storm as bigger sizes are freeridey and the smaller are more wavey? They are supposed to be mega stable.
Gestalt said: "looking at the spec of the gator in the smaller sizes i'd say it is more a pure wave sail than the kult. ie. shorter boom. (more comparable to the Kaos). The longer boom on the kult in my mind is the real difference between the kult and the kaos. a longer boom makes a sail less twitchy (more stable) and "usually" gives it a little more help going to windward."
My apologies Gestalt, I did get mixed up regarding what you were implying. However, from what I can see when I look at the 08 KA and Severne ranges on their websites is that the dedicated 'freeride/wave' crossover sails in each range, irrespective of boom length, appear to be the Kult and Gator.
Gazman said: Main deciding factor with sail choice is mast compatibility, I currently use a Pryde X6 430 mast with a X6 400 top section for my smaller sails and have no plans to change sails as well as mast at present.
Gestalt said: can i ask if you knew that why you didn't mention it originally? you original post asked for feedback on either th kult or the gator. i guess i shouldn't have assumed you had the right mast
I did consider mentioning it in the original post but I really wanted to hear what other people had to say about the sails first before opening up a 'can of worms' and asking what masts they had used with their sails. Anyway, I really had no idea what the 'right mast' for a KA sail would be before my original post (no real mention on their website either). Would be a good question for designer, Andrew McDougall, who I had the pleasure of meeting around 20 years ago. Still using his design of a double hook spreader bar (using the 'back' hook when sailing) that he sold me on back then!
Many thanks to Ben Severne for the excellent reply re NP mast (in)compatibility with Severne Gators.
Another point regarding NP mast/sail compatibility, I traded a 430 X3 mast in on a 430 X6 mast and my NP sails handled very differently, though this may have had more to do with differences in stiffness than with bend curve. So NP sails don't always work well on NP masts!!!
that's gold gazman,
i used the double hook spreader (back hook) for years, i had no idea that amac designed it. it wasn't until i started using more freewave type gear that i switched back to a single hook spreader. no doubt amac is one of oz's best designers of sailing stuff, his sails rock, his moth rocks,
just on the kult. yep, it's a freewave sail. or an excellent wave sail for big boys or a great onshore wave sail or a great freeride sail that's build tough.
the gator is also freewave and prob even freestyle too. but in the smaller gator sizes it is more wave than freeride. in the bigger sizes though the gator is more freeride. notice in the spec that the boom lengths for the bigger gators are longer. actually the 7m kult and the 7m gator have almost the same boom length.
so for me, i switch to the kaos in the smaller sizes ie. less than 5.3m (more wave orientated) and use the kult for the bigger sizes ie. 5.3m+ (more freewave orientated) friends use the 7m kult for freeride (ocean) -but as martin points out the koyote is a freeride/slalom type sail for blasting. the kult and kaos work well together for me.
the gator sees the one sail model cover all of these uses. ie. bigger gator is freeride orientated, mid gator is freestyle and smaller gator is wave. this is reflected in the 3.5m - 8.0m sizes and particularly obvious with the 5.5 and 5.3m size changes.
other sail manufacturers do this also. they realise that people want the bigger sails to be more freeride orientated and the smaller ones more wave orientated so they adjust the sail spec accordingly as the sizes change.
the advantage with sticking to the one sail model through all sizes is you should get good matches between sizes. having lots of sails from different manufacturers and of different shapes means you may buy a 6.4m sail in one model which actually feels like a 5.8m in another model. so changing down or up achieves nothing. not to mention you also only need 1 type of mast.
my critisism of the sizing of the gators would be that the 6.5 isn't recomended on a 430. you need 2 masts to change from the 6.5 to 5.5 (sorry ben 
)
my only critisism of the 6.4 kult is that i would like my KA wave boom that fits the 5.8 to fit the 6.4 as the 430 mast does but i need to switch to my KA race boom which is heavier than the wave boom. (sorry amac ) that said the kult is my sail of choice.
still what suits me may not suit others. 
i think north have a one mast fits all range but once again you need a north mast so compatabiity issues will occur.
i also think the new neil pryde sails solid. certainly the ones i have seen are. but they are costly and once again need a NP mast.
so all sails have good and bad. thing is to limit the bad i guess.
that's why a lot of people like constant curves masts. it's because they have more choice. i switched from north to KA becasue i got tired of having to always buy north everything. they are excellent sails but i wanted more choice.
i think gaastra may have also switched to constant curve masts and i'd say eventually all manufacturers will. the market is starting to demand it.
since the storm has been mentioned I will offer an opinion which you are welcome to take on board or ignore as you please.
I have sailed with the gator/renegade, blade, rock and storm over the last couple of seasons so can offer some feedback also being 75kgs.
I haven't sailed a KA for ages so I've no idea about the new ones.
Regarding NP masts and the storm, you could say that if the NP sails are improved with the tushy masts, then maybe the NP mast may fit on the storm. The boards article was suggesting something similar, (correct me if I am wrong) although the specs given for the best result was the tushy skinny mast. we have had some success with some NP masts on the tushy sails and some disasters depending on the mast style, mainly as Ben suggested because the bottom section is too stiff for any real batten rotation under the boom. It seems to be less of a problem with the higher carbon content masts and the newer versions.
Regarding feel and bottom end etc - here are my views based on the fact you don't want to do real wave sailing - more bump and jump freeriding.
Gator 5.3 and 4.7 - the gator is all xply but a lighter grade than some and as a result is very light in the hands when sailing. I particularly liked this sail for cross over boards as it got going easily when filled out for lighter conditions without loosing shape. It powered up both my wave board easily and the larger BJ gear. when cruising the sail was very light to throw around in gybes and jumps. When fully powered I would pull on more outhaul to keep the sail stable and while the draft moved back slightly it didn't cause me to get out of shape as the sails slightly springy softer feel let the sail breath throught the gusts.
I now prefer the blade for wave riding as it is a bit more direct driving into the mast foot and more rigid when over powered, and has a shorter boom, just. The gator I like better as a freeride sail. It has proven to be a good sail for some others that I sail with as the springy feel offers them more time to react to gusts without being pulled forward and out of shape. the 5.3 gives a alot of power without really feeling it. I liked the 6.5 also and was able to use the 6.5 first in around 18 knots then change straight to the 5.3 and still get going without feeling like I was missing power in the same wind. The draft sits around the luff panel.
As wave sails they are very good for most people and as jumping sails they are excellent. As allround sails I strongly recommend them especially if you like a bit if flexibility in feel in your sails. They are also very easy to rig correctly, but can be set with quite a lot of difference without deforming.
The new 2009 storm is a completely new shape and feel, and again while being quite good in smaller sizes as wavey sails they are excellent for jumping and better again as crossover BJ sails. the new sails have a larger dacron luff panel giving a very soft flexible feel to the sail. The biggest criticism of the tushies is from people who want instant power. the storm offers plenty of power if you ease off on the outhaul or downhaul but instead of throwing full power at you and pulling you off balance. They absorb the gust so you don't have to change stance and sheet in against the power, and wind up to drive you along in a smoother action. For some this means a lack of instant response while others feel this gives a smoother more relaxing ride and is less tiring over the entire session.
The 2009 storm is full xply apart from the window. the biggest benefits are that the natural range of the sail on one setting is very large requiring less time re-setting as conditions change. the slightly longer boom means less oversheeting on freeride style free/wave boards that can occur with waves sails. The draft sits around the front hand.
Finally for me the instant power of some sails is more relevant in the impact zone to get out of trouble and in powering off the top of a wave, but in freeride mode the softness or springy feel of the other sails gives me a more comfortable ride in chop and on longer runs where the sails that breath a bit more feel less tiring.
If you are not going to change masts, then you really need to rig the sails on your mast to see for yourself. try everything - one weekend of rigging can save you a lot of grief if the sails are to be kept for a number of years.
I can't pick a favourite as I'll get toasted by someone and what I like the next bloke doesn't as we all have our own tastes.
cheers
Paul
sorry for the long winded response.
Is that Paul from Secondwind Perth?
Maybe long winded but a very detailed response which is what I like to hear!
Hi Gazman , You actually have had a response from KA on mast compatability, my third post on the thread, sorry you probably didn,t realise. I am AMACs , lets say "assistant".
I can,t 100% say that the X6 won't work on the Kult without physically trying it, but knowing the differences in the bend curve specs I can state that it will be less than ideal.The sail will set looser in the upper leech and tighter in the mid to lower leech as the mast is not exactly matching the designed luff curve. As Ben said this will mean the top of the leech is falling away too much and "breathing"too early leading to less low end power , but when the wind increases the sail will become "back handed" due to the tight mid leech, not "breathing".
The degree this will happen is not known without actually trying it, it may be quite subtle, but in an ideal world you would not use this sail/mast combination.
I hope that answers it for you. If I can get my hands on a 400 X6 we will certainly try it out for you, but we may not be able to do it in a suitable time frame.
Regards Martin
Have a think about the NP Excess. Full X-Ply freeride Bump & Jump sail. Will work great on your NP masts and I know SHQ in VIC have a great deal going on the Excess for 2009 so WA retailers may do as well. Just a thought!
Hi Gazman , Yep I just spoke to AMAC . He feels due to the small amount of luff curve on the 4.7 Kult and the fact it has more curve in the top it will be fine .
However the Kaos with the straighter curve in the top won't work that great and will behave in the manner I described.
He is certainly far more qualified than myself and I would value his opinion highly.
Appologies if I led you astray.
Regards Martin
Martin,
I think that the 5.3 Koyote would probably be the best choice for me considering the type of sailing I do locally with my current 5.4 (straight-line blasting with occasional jumping) as well as the design of my 85L freeride board which is more freeride/speed oriented than freewave. I would probably update to the 5.3 Koyote first and then get a 4.7 Kult at a later stage if I'm happy with the way the Koyote performs.
I got in touch with the WA KA distributor yesterday. Unfortunately he doesn't have any Koyotes or Kults to demo and doesn't keep any stock of these sails either. As well as this, he doesn't do trade-ins on new sails which is a bummer (I've known and dealt with the guy for nearly 18 years and he has looked after me very well many times in the past so it's not a reflection on his business!).
I don't want to spend around $800 on a new sail to find out it's not really what I want (like I have done previously) so the other option would be to find a secondhand 5.3 Koyote. Do you know of any of the Vic (or east coast) KA crew who may have a one in good nic they want to part with?
Hey Martin,
Forgot about the WA KA crew! Maybe one of the Lockwood clan may have some small Koyotes (or Kults) they are interested in selling. Not sure about Chris as I gather he mostly uses Koncepts though Richard apparently does use Koyotes. Can you ask Chris on my behalf when you speak to him next? (I don't have their contact details).
