Hi all when I rig my severne 7.5 gator it does not look right at the correct downhaul/outhaul settings. It looks flat with no shape to it and when I downhaul before i apply the outhaul tension the battens above and below the boom stick out past the front of the mast by a full mast width or more. The stated luff/outhaul measurements for this sail are 483cm/195cm and in the following photos it was rigged at 482 and 196 in the top outhaul eyelet with a severne gorilla rdm mast. This is a 2016/2017 prototype sail hence the lack of graphics. Photos 1 and 2 shows the battens sticking out past the mast. Photos 3 and 4 show the leech and chambered area without the outhaul applied. Photos 5,6 and 7 show the sail fully rigged. I am also confused about the top and bottom outhaul eyelets. The top one is 5cm further back than the bottom one. Severne states that top eyelet gives tighter leech and more power /less control and the bottom eyelet vice versa. Is this still with 195 outhaul because when rigged in the bottom eyelet the outhaul is so tight i need to wrap the line around a stick to get the sail to the boom. The sail seems to feel ok out on the water. Is this how these sails are supposed to be or is there something wrong. Severne states that they can have RDM or SDM masts.
Ignore the printed settings. Make your own settings to achieve the correct downhaul, outhaul, appearance, and feel on the water. Mess with the extension and boom until you get it right. Then write down those settings. I keep a rigging spreadsheet for all my gear.
Make sure you are using the correct mast for that sail. Correct IMCS and bend curve; matching sail and mast by brand is best overall.
Hmm, that doesn't look right.
I have 5 Gator sails from 3.7 to 6.5 (sold my 8.0). I rigg them all on Severne Blue line RDM masts and at least the 6.5 (2017 model) has a quite pronounced belly shape for a non-cam sail.
To me it looks as if you would need more downhaul. That would bend the mast more, reduce the overlap of the battens with the mast, and create much more loose leech.
With my 6.5 sail the battens practically dont overlap the RDM mast and I have loose leech down to the 4th batten. The outhaul in my Gators i keep rather at low tension.
you can also check these rigging guide:
That's what I call monkey mast business - a headache.. Would be best if you posted a vid so people could see some changes when you apply more/less downhaul. I use Nolimitz 370/400 on my Naish Choppers, Severne Blades and older Goya sails are they look very good. But they are fairly small sails and I guess compatibility problems diminish the smaller the size..
In your sail (again, my subjective opinion) it looks like the mast is harder bend for what your sail needs. From the pic I can see already pretty shallow pocket and already i see some flapping edge of the sail that extends from the top almost all the way to the boom. Not amazing. Because if you apply more downhaul that entire top to boom flapping region will become even deeper and you will loose the pocket completely. Which means you may loose a huge part of the sail's bottom end and likely stability as well.
With my limited experience (I try to avoid messing with masts as it waists ton of time) soft top mast would have given you very flappy top batten or two and big pocket immediately. Harder top mast for that sail would have required more downhaul. You would get shallow/no pocket (flat sail) and get some flapping between top first/second batten and pretty tight leach... What happens here in my opinion is some Constant Curve mast which is somehow generally harder for what that sail needs..
not sure how to fix it... Grab some softer / different masts from a friend and see what happens. Problem is that it kind of sucks to have a different brand mast for that specific sail which is a proto too.. That mast/sail thing IMHO is scariest thing in windsurfing. Since I don't stick to same sail-mast brand, I never buy new sails or masts to take less $ impact because of high incompatibility risk. Even within same brand it may happen. 
A rule of thumb with all rotational sails is that the battens by the boom sit to the side of the mast but never in front of the mast.
You need more downhaul, and then a bit more outhaul.
Measurements and suggested settings written on any sail are never exact and the sail set will vary with different masts and with different brands of extensions used. The boom length needed will also vary according to how high - or how low - you set it on the mast.
Ive found on the severne NCXs and gators that the specs are usually the bare minimum as a starting point, normally I give them an extra 2cm downhaul and outhaul and then tune more or less on each according to the windstrength.
The problem is if I add more downhaul and make it look right in the belly the leech becomes loose down the entire sail and it performs like a dog wanting to go upwind all the time and very hard to get enough power to get on the plane. Maybe the severne gorilla RDM is no good for this sail. I have a fibre spar SDM constant curve I might try that on it and see if that is better.
When I had gators (not sure what year but around 2015/2016) I found the 5.7 (and below) at 5 battens rigged with what appeared a tighter leach and had an appearance more like a wave or crossover sail. It looked kinda like your photos (and the video above)
The 6.5 had six battens and the leach was floppy down to the fourth batten. It certainly 'appeared' to be significantly different to the way the 5.7 looked in terms of leach floppiness. So much so I always ummed and arghed when I rigged it. It looked way floppier than the video above.
From the photos I'd suggest it needs more downhaul until the floppy between the top and second batten extends from where it is to halfway from where it is to the mast. That is what mine looked like.
Mine sailed good though. Rigged fine on an old Powerex RDM.
Hi mobdog , i am a long time reader but first time poster ! , i have exactly that combo of a 2017 7.5 gator and 460 gorilla RDM , and much to my surprise i found it rigged better on a RDM than my SDM , so much so i sold my SDM ! . My comments would be that the stated severne numbers for outhall are always a bit low , so i would suggest use the top eyelet but set at 198cm, the downhall in your sail looks a little low also so set that at 484 rather than 482, and downhall right to the pulley . hope that helps , i find that combo works really well despite advice that an SDM would be better. good sailing , John
Would be interesting to see what worked for mobdog in the end. There is only one big variable in how sails look IMHO and it's downhaul. If the sail looks weird with whatever downhaul you apply, you likely wont be able to fix it with the outhaul. In fact if you have enough experience, you won't even need to stop pulling the downhaul to realize the mast is wrong for the sail or visa verse.
Select to expand quoteleto said..
Would be interesting to see what worked for mobdog in the end. There is only one big variable in how sails look IMHO and it's downhaul. If the sail looks weird with whatever downhaul you apply, you likely wont be able to fix it with the outhaul. In fact if you have enough experience, you won't even need to stop pulling the downhaul to realize the mast is wrong for the sail or visa verse.
Surely a severne mast should be suited for the sail. Severne says it is suited for RDM and SDM. The mast is the gorilla from the same year.
I also think more downhaul, to get those battens to sit back behind mast (or the one above boom a bit around the mast to like the halfway point.
Then give us another pic?
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
I also think more downhaul, to get those battens to sit back behind mast (or the one above boom a bit around the mast to like the halfway point.
Then give us another pic?
Yep I'll do that. I have looked at it this way it took 486cm which is 3cm more than stated, but it looked much better in the cambered area just very loose down the leech maybe that's how gators are meant to be.
As far as twist etc goes I reckon a Gator will look more like an NCX than a Blade in that era. Roughly....
Select to expand quotemob dog said..
This is a 2016/2017 prototype sail hence the lack of graphics.
Prototype sail?
Does it have the correct battens in?
Is it exactly the same as the production sail?
How much did you pay for it and who did you get it from? Direct from Severne or someone who got it cheap and found it didn't work?
Does it fill out to be the correct shape when filled with wind?
I'd suggest playing with the settings until you reach the best feel in the sail when using it you like.
Is this one the same year?
Select to expand quotePhilUK said..mob dog said..
This is a 2016/2017 prototype sail hence the lack of graphics.
Prototype sail?
Does it have the correct battens in?
Is it exactly the same as the production sail?
How much did you pay for it and who did you get it from? Direct from Severne or someone who got it cheap and found it didn't work?
Does it fill out to be the correct shape when filled with wind?
I'd suggest playing with the settings until you reach the best feel in the sail when using it you like.
Is this one the same year?
Not sure if it has correct battens
Don't know if it's exactly the same as production sail
I paid $300 for it of someone who worked for severne and yes it does fill out under power but not as much as I think it should. I think as Mark said I will downhaul it till the batten above boom is half way across the mast and try that. The sail in this video must be a different model it says 480cm downhaul and curiously he says it looks good at 474. Mine says 483cm but its going be around 488cm to get that batten end where it needs to be.
As others have said, more downhaul.
"Mr Cribb" i've heard once said something along the lines of the 2nd from top batten should sit straight back (tight) through the luff tube on a no cam. Below that there can/should start to be some sagging going on down the luff tube. Its a bit of general rule, and whilst some of things i've heard from Cribb seem a bit different, i've found this general tip seems to ring pretty true.
looking at pics 3 and 4 (under tension without the boom) there seems to be a bit of sagging going on at the 2nd from top batten, so you can probably afford to give it more downhaul. It'll certainly get those bottom battens closer to where they should be.
I would try it at 484-485 and just set the outhaul so it just misses the boom when the sail has power in it, also because you are using an RDM in a SDM sail the mast sleeve has extra room in it so the batten halfway across the mast probably wont work, The Gator is a powerful no cam sail so when it powers up had a pretty deep foil and the leech will be tighter than say an NCX.
Yes if you crank the downhaul till the whole leech goes floppy the power of the sail changes and moves back and will feel terrible, I tend to rig the correct downhaul then play with the outhaul, so when its windier i just click the outhaul one extra hole so the sail goes flatter but still stays the correct shape from the downhaul.
The old rules of battens halfway across the mast and floppy leach to bla bla don't always work on newer model sails.
Select to expand quoteP.C_simpson said..
I would try it at 484-485 and just set the outhaul so it just misses the boom when the sail has power in it, also because you are using an RDM in a SDM sail the mast sleeve has extra room in it so the batten halfway across the mast probably wont work, The Gator is a powerful no cam sail so when it powers up had a pretty deep foil and the leech will be tighter than say an NCX.
Yes if you crank the downhaul till the whole leech goes floppy the power of the sail changes and moves back and will feel terrible, I tend to rig the correct downhaul then play with the outhaul, so when its windier i just click the outhaul one extra hole so the sail goes flatter but still stays the correct shape from the downhaul.
The old rules of battens halfway across the mast and floppy leach to bla bla don't always work on newer model sails.
Severne says on their site that the gator can use RDM or SDM. I have a fibrespar SDM you reckon that would work better its probably constant curve though.
I would just run the Severne mast as the curve should be correct for the sail, just play with the setting then sail it to see how it feels, you should work out the best setting pretty easy, don't just go on how it looks on the beach or how other people tell you how it should look.
A lot of people will always rig a sail to how they think it should look instead of how it's ment to be rigged then hate the sail.
when a sail is designed they will rig it how it's ment to be rigged then write down the measurements that will end up on the sail, if you go a hole either side of those you should find a sweet spot.
In the building process sails will not always end up the same as the original sail the rigging measurements were taken off, ie the top cap of the sail could be a couple mm out then the bottom pulley may be a couple mm out which would equate to the overall being say 5-10 mm out which would be an extra hole in your extension.
Hi Mob dog,
The photos clearly show that you will need to apply approx 4-5 more cm of downhaul. this will draw the battens out from the mast appropriately. Also the shot with the boom attached showing what you are looking at twist wise, is the absolute minimum downhaul twist setting for this sail.
With more downhaul the twist will allow the sail to breathe more and the most twist will form in panel two and three. This is because Severne sails do not twist progressively down from the top panel of the sail like some other brands, but have a mid leech twist profile.
You can then adjust outhaul to your liking once the downhaul as been applied.
The outhaul figures printed on the production sails is the maximum outhaul suggested and usually for the top clew ring (or furthest out). Outhaul is definitely a personal thing for some riders as some prefer the pull of a negative or neutral outhaul setting while others like a more controlled feel from positive tension of 1-2 cm.
I will only use rdm masts now generally and the Gator will work on the Gorilla mast.
The proto sails may have a pen written setting on the tack of the sail but this may have been recorded from the production measurements and not the actual sail once rigged. So use as a guide and adjust accordingly.
Subsonic's comment about the tension of batten two at the luff pocket is correct in many cases. The shape tends to start showing in batten 3 and down.
Batten 1 is centrally located off the mast at the trailing edge. Batten 2 has only slight shape in the camber flow, the foil of the camber shape starts in batten 3 and is most noticeable at batten 4, 5 and 6.
Select to expand quoteRevoboardsports said..
Hi Mob dog,
The photos clearly show that you will need to apply approx 4-5 more cm of downhaul. this will draw the battens out from the mast appropriately. Also the shot with the boom attached showing what you are looking at twist wise, is the absolute minimum downhaul twist setting for this sail.
With more downhaul the twist will allow the sail to breathe more and the most twist will form in panel two and three. This is because Severne sails do not twist progressively down from the top panel of the sail like some other brands, but have a mid leech twist profile.
You can then adjust outhaul to your liking once the downhaul as been applied.
The outhaul figures printed on the production sails is the maximum outhaul suggested and usually for the top clew ring (or furthest out). Outhaul is definitely a personal thing for some riders as some prefer the pull of a negative or neutral outhaul setting while others like a more controlled feel from positive tension of 1-2 cm.
I will only use rdm masts now generally and the Gator will work on the Gorilla mast.
The proto sails may have a pen written setting on the tack of the sail but this may have been recorded from the production measurements and not the actual sail once rigged. So use as a guide and adjust accordingly.
Subsonic's comment about the tension of batten two at the luff pocket is correct in many cases. The shape tends to start showing in batten 3 and down.
Batten 1 is centrally located off the mast at the trailing edge. Batten 2 has only slight shape in the camber flow, the foil of the camber shape starts in batten 3 and is most noticeable at batten 4, 5 and 6.
Hi thanks for your advice, I have applied more downhaul but was only able to physically get 3cm more doing it by hand which was 486cm. the sail looked marginally better at this setting but the batten above the boom was still a little in front of the mast with outhaul yet to be applied. Do you think a down haul crank may be necessary?
That style and size of sail should still be reasonably easy to downhaul without a crank. Especially when comparing to a 4 cam, 8m or 9m race sail.
Ok just re rigged it in the back yard and am satisfied now. It has 4cm more downhaul and 2cm less outhaul than the photos in the original post. It looks right as far as there's a bit of chamber there now and the batten above the boom is half way on the mast. I was being thrown by the loose leach, all my other sails are ezzy cheetahs and blind freddy can rig them, their foolproof. I Like the gator for my mid range sail because the first thing i noticed about this sail was that it seems to be forgiving in gusty conditions and just absorbs them and it also seems to have a good range, keeps me planing if the wind backs off a bit yet very manageable when overpowered, and this was with me rigging it wrong ! , im sure it will sail a bit better now, can't wait to get it out there and try. Photos 3 and 7 just down hauled and the rest with out haul applied. What do you guys think now ?
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
Nice. Now just batten tension on the two near boom
Yep already done. I saw the wrinkles when I posted the damn photos after I de rigged. Rigged it up again and got it just perfect.
