Same place same day but different rider: Dinard's Sandbanks 19 april 2015
This guy is usin a 1997 Noth sail and a 1998 french brand board ! he is performing well and all his gear is still in very good condition.
Do we realy need to change all our gear each year ? Is performance changing so fast in one year time ?
Vintage Windsurf : there you go
Microsoft movie maker only ;)
The wheel must be kept revolving. I am talking about the financial wheel of course.
New designs, new trends or fashion, just like the fashion catwalks in Paris and other places, must keep on pushing out different stuff. Windsurfing is not that much different. The trouble with windsurfing gear is that it can potentially last a long time, if you take good care of it. So there lies a problem for the industry. How do you make sales?
Well, you use "performance" as a hook. The Bombora Tri-fin, as its name implies, has three fins. Then it whittled down to just a single fin. Now it has four fine. Not only new designs have more fins, they become very short. So short that it looked like a White Pointer bit off the front. Then sails goes through many revolving doors. It was the more battens the better. Now only three suffice.
I have been sailing for a long time. Some friends with good intentions, no doubt, came up and advised me on sail trim. Not enough down-haul. Not enough out-haul. What they didn't realize is that my sail is 15 years old,, and my board is even older than that and it only has one fin. Yes, only one. I explained to them that, me being not in competition, or a professional, I don't really care if I am only half a knot slower.
On the contrary, I beat many sailors on new gear. But that I don't really care, or want to crow about either. The point is that I don't spend a lot of money unnecessarily. I enjoy the time "wasted" actually on the water, and not worry about smashing up the equipment.
My point is this...With new and perhaps better gear will help you a bit, but it is the sailor controlling it will make the most difference.
Late 1990's sails changed to the type where you set the downhaul to give the sail more wind range and it self-adjusted to gusts. That has been on-going since then and the problems are more to do with the different mast bend characteristics manufacturers use, with them changing 'philosophies' so you can't just buy any sail and any mast - even from the same manufacturer.
2002 saw the Goya 250 wave board, which signalled the start of production boards performing as well as many custom boards. So from then on, we have been getting more refined gear and it has been improving, but nothing revolutionary IMO. The steps have tended to get smaller as time has gone on.
I'd say boards and sails from the late 2000's are not far from what we will be offered next year. It's a performance driven industry, so they are still improving the products, but not by a lot.
This isn't a new direction for windsurfing, but it may develop as a niche, as they refine it. It does show that maybe there are still design revolutions to come?
That 90's board is exactly as irrelevant to the vast majority of the potential windsurfing public as every other one of the 6,000 models of high-wind-only boards produced since then. That's why it's important that those of us who are hooked have to buy at least one of each of them.
I'll have to test out my old gear to remind me why it sucks exactly! lol
I still have my VX3 sails and smaller slalom kit from around 1997. I know that compared to my old boards the Isonic gybes like a wave board! Maybe I'll go do a old school day myself and have a little fun on the water!
I am not sure your argument is valid. I noticed many people with a van load of gear, also have a good many boards for various sailing conditions. And these are newer boards I am talking about.
Whether you need many boards to match the conditions is entirely up to you really. If you have the cash, then it is entirely your business to own as many as you wished. However, I doubt it will make you a better windsurfer though. It is time on the water.
A story about Robby Naish was related to me a while ago. There was a Mistral board, a board that is considered a bloody long board by today's standards I might add, was meant to be a wave slalom board. Many amigos complained it can't do anything right on waves. So Naish jumped on it, sailed straight out to the waves, gybed and then rode the waves to the cheers of everyone.
Select to expand quoteJupiter said..
Whether you need many boards to match the conditions is entirely up to you really. If you have the cash, then it is entirely your business to own as many as you wished. However, I doubt it will make you a better windsurfer though. It is time on the water.
True newer gear doesn't make you a better windsurfer, you could argue riding challenging gear makes you better. But new gear can make you windsurf better perhaps?
I noticed this effect with some of my newer gear and how much more forgiving they are. Bit like the increased sweet spot modern tennis raquets have over the older counterparts. Sure Robby and co could sail their high level on most anything, but for the average Joe, new gear can make up to a degree.
As for having fun, I'd have just as much fun on my older gear as I do now, so no real difference there.
I actually still sail regular on old gear, it's the sails I have upgraded and the some of my boards.
I still get out on this gear regular.
Mistral Equipe - 1989 model
Mistral IMCO 1990 model and sail
Protech 258 wave board 1996
Protech Z-26 slalom board 2001
Protech Sean Ordonez edition 1998
That is an amazing collection of older board, Scottydog. I still have my Mistral Stinger hanging under my garage ceiling. It is not much good now as its bottom had delaminated. A old Tiga made of polyurethane. Since that Tiga, I went up market and only bought Epoxy Carbon boards.
My oldest is a 1993 F2 Axxis which is still in very good condition. The deck has become as smooth as wet tiles. So I glued some patches of neoprene from an old wet suit, and I had used it to this day.
Then I went even more radical. I found a nice F2 Sputnik with a stupid unique mast-foot design. I customized a Chinook base and now I have a very fast board. Friends, and anyone who care to provide advice, said that it is a piece of **** as it is difficult to gybe. I proved them wrong. Sure, it has a very different characteristic. You need to draw out your gybe, even wider than my F2 Axxis. But the speed I can crank it up to made it very exciting, even dangerous, to gybe.
Yes, I may make some of you upset. I find the shape of such boards "elegant".
The old F2 sputnik were great looking boards, more top end speed than modern boards.
I think too much has been sacrificed to make boards early planning.
Select to expand quoteGfly said..
The old F2 sputnik were great looking boards, more top end speed than modern boards.
I think too much has been sacrificed to make boards early planning.
I would have thought early planning mean early acceleration.....so faster over the distance...certainly once you have got them cranked up to speed those older slalom boards were fast...but not faster than a modern board. That doesn't mean much unless you are racing slalom or GPS....I am sure the sensation of speed is very similar.
Select to expand quoteGfly said..
The old F2 sputnik were great looking boards, more top end speed than modern boards.
I think too much has been sacrificed to make boards early planning.
I am blessed that where I sail, we rarely use any sail smaller than a 5.2 sq M. A Sputnik will give you the ** when wind falls below 15 knots as its tail sinks to ankle deep. As soon as it hits 18 knots and above, it is away.
My F2 Axxis is 2 cm wider, it is 86 cm, while the Sputnik is 84 cm. I noticed the Axxis will bounce around a bit more than the latter. Overall, new generation boards probably are more forgiving, and possibly get on the plane sooner. However, I wonder if the top-end speed is less on the new, wider boards?
New gen wider shorter boards use bigger fins and thus get planing quicker.
Wider tail probably helps too.
But if you want to feel the difference in sails try rigging a 1999 -7m race sail which rigged on a 490 mast (telegraph pole) and compare it to a new 2015- 7m which rigs on a much softer 430 mast.
Often hear people say the new stuff not much better or faster than their 1999 NP Mk4 or whatever but its simply not true.
I had a decent break away from the sport and the biggest improvement while I was away was definitely the sails. Chalk and cheese in that department. As for boards not as bigger leap there from the late 90's stuff I was using but still a lot better. What I will say about modern boards is that it's possible to get exactly the board you need for your requirements and physical abilities right off the shelf, if you do your homework. I think this gives a more enjoyable experience more often.
Select to expand quoteJupiter said..Gfly said..
The old F2 sputnik were great looking boards, more top end speed than modern boards.
I think too much has been sacrificed to make boards early planning.
I am blessed that where I sail, we rarely use any sail smaller than a 5.2 sq M. A Sputnik will give you the ** when wind falls below 15 knots as its tail sinks to ankle deep. As soon as it hits 18 knots and above, it is away.
My F2 Axxis is 2 cm wider, it is 86 cm, while the Sputnik is 84 cm. I noticed the Axxis will bounce around a bit more than the latter. Overall, new generation boards probably are more forgiving, and possibly get on the plane sooner. However, I wonder if the top-end speed is less on the new, wider boards?
Where do you sail jupiter?
I remember the sputnik when I was growing up and it was the board I always wanted but a teenager doesnt have $2000 back then to get one.
I've been looking at reviews of the new slalom boards and they plane well, gybe well, but are unstable in top end speed, just too much surface area getting banged around by chop.
Select to expand quoteslalomfreak said..
New gen wider shorter boards use bigger fins and thus get planing quicker.
Wider tail probably helps too.
But if you want to feel the difference in sails try rigging a 1999 -7m race sail which rigged on a 490 mast (telegraph pole) and compare it to a new 2015- 7m which rigs on a much softer 430 mast.
Often hear people say the new stuff not much better or faster than their 1999 NP Mk4 or whatever but its simply not true.
I'd love to try some new gear. I grew up with the sails being powered up all the time. A lot of serious slalom and race sails. Saying that I used to sail one of the old Neil Pryde race sails when they first went from mylar to monofilm. It was a weird shape with a long boom small leach but great bottom and top end and wind range.
Select to expand quoteGfly said..Jupiter said..Gfly said..
The old F2 sputnik were great looking boards, more top end speed than modern boards.
I think too much has been sacrificed to make boards early planning.
I am blessed that where I sail, we rarely use any sail smaller than a 5.2 sq M. A Sputnik will give you the ** when wind falls below 15 knots as its tail sinks to ankle deep. As soon as it hits 18 knots and above, it is away.
My F2 Axxis is 2 cm wider, it is 86 cm, while the Sputnik is 84 cm. I noticed the Axxis will bounce around a bit more than the latter. Overall, new generation boards probably are more forgiving, and possibly get on the plane sooner. However, I wonder if the top-end speed is less on the new, wider boards?
Where do you sail jupiter?
I remember the sputnik when I was growing up and it was the board I always wanted but a teenager doesnt have $2000 back then to get one.
I've been looking at reviews of the new slalom boards and they plane well, gybe well, but are unstable in top end speed, just too much surface area getting banged around by chop.
I mostly sail in the Mid-West, GFly.
The Sputnik had been on my wishlist for a long time. Somehow, its aggressive rails and overall shape sets it apart from the rest. I also remember the Mistral Diamond Head and the Cobra boards. They all have the narrow tails. I only got my Sputnik quite recently for a mere $50. It is really beaten up a bit for the last 15 or more years. However, With a bit of Aqua Epoxy resin, and a new set of foot-straps, I am beginning to like it. Even with my 10 years and older sails, it zips along nicely.
Yes, I do agree that sails do make a big difference. My very old sails used to get "back-winded" when a gust hit. Newer sails are more able to deal with fluctuating wind strengths.
I'm still using my old gear all 1994 wavefoil pros and a natural high custom wave slalom made in Newcastle. Thanks to the guys I sail with I have recently been given some newer sails but I will still use the old gear. l'm still keeping pace with most.
1990s stuff is new school, compared to a lot of my early '80s gear. And the bizarre thing is that on a typical summer's day, the '80s gear is normally faster than the standard 2015 gear; often several times faster. That's unusual as far as sporting equipment goes. Of course, given a good breeze modern kit is 10 knots or more quicker, but it's still unusual to have ancient gear go better than the latest stuff so often.
Modern gear is great in its way, of course - no denying that. But unless you're blasting along on a straight line in a good breeze, it's the sailor that makes the difference. Maybe I'm becoming a hippy, but I'd rather just throw together some tough, simple gear and go out and enjoy the sailing, and treat most "problems" created by the kit just as another set of interesting challenges. YMMV.
Select to expand quoteJupiter said..
The Sputnik had been on my wishlist for a long time. Somehow, its aggressive rails and overall shape sets it apart from the rest. I also remember the Mistral Diamond Head and the Cobra boards. They all have the narrow tails.
Drop me a line if you're ever over near the east coast and want a free Cobra Gun, otherwise it may end up on the tip - I have to rationalise the toys to get a modern-ish allround waveboard.
A bit more advance stuff but still on old gear:
Or, heaven forbid, they happen to have different tastes - but of course we're not allowed to have different tastes, are we?
The modern gear I've tried has been set up by national champions, who (I would assume) have some idea about how to rig it. It's great stuff in many ways. But for some people there are good reasons why it does not feel better.
For example, some of us don't just sail shortboards, and that means that our sailing style can be quite different to those who just sail shortboards. For example, I don't really mind a sail where your back hand loads up, because you get used to having a highly loaded backhand when you sail some longboards - it's not just because of sail design and size but also because you can't just switch to a smaller sail when the wind picks up if you're on the racecourse, whereas you can come in and switch to a smaller sail if the wind picks up when you're wavesailing or zipping back and forth.
The modern shortboards also open up the gap between gybing techniques you need for a longboard and the techniques you need for a shortboard, IMHO. That means that it's harder to swap back and forth between longboard and shortboard, which some of us like to do. There would probably be other practical reasons that other people find to prefer one sort of gear over another.
Secondly, we all have personal strong points and weak points, and personal likes and dislikes, and they can affect the way gear suits us. For example, I don't like having wave sails that don't have low-down grunt. It's just a personal thing in the way that some people like different dogs, or wine, or music; I really like being able to power up quickly when struggling to get through a light wind zone in the whitewash.
And since, as your vid shows, you CAN do new-style sailing with old gear, surely it gets down to what is "enjoyable". Some of us find enjoyment in doing so many sports and disciplines that we don't want to throw lots of cash at buying new gear for just one of them. And sometimes some of us can get more enjoyment by ignoring the issues with our gear, and just concentrating on enjoying what we have and what we are doing. So just like some people like barefoot running, fixed gear bikes and boogy boards, some people can like using old windsurfing gear.
