Forums > Windsurfing General

Nature Follows, Makes Move to Monofilm.

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Created by evlPanda > 9 months ago, 19 Jul 2010
lotofwind
NSW, 6451 posts
20 Jul 2010 7:41PM
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Harnessing natural energy????
Pitty they only live for 2 days then die.

They have a harsh life really,
They start as an ugly grub,eating and crapping, till they are fat enough to spin a crystals(spelling),
After a couple of weeks they come out as a beautifull butterfly,
But only have 2 days to score a root before they die.

Chris 249
NSW, 3513 posts
20 Jul 2010 9:41PM
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Windxtasy said...

The shape of those front wings is very similar to our sails, which have been developed through R & D to arrive at that shape. Perhaps the sails would perform even better if they were closer still to the butterfly shape. Look at that "mast bend curve".
I don't know a lot about aerodynamics but it seems to me at least that sail designers should reconsider orientation of battens to minimise turbulence over the foil so that the battens run more in the direction of the veins in the butterfly wing (red lines) which is the direction of air flow when the sail is raked back rather than the perpendicular to the mast pattern (yellow lines) that we have now.




But the shape of the front wings isn't similar to our sails when you see it the way the air does, when the butterfly is flying forwards. The wind first "sees" those front wings at the skinny part (top of the page) and then the air passes down to the section of widest chord further down the page.

That's like a windsurfer rig but upside-down.

The red lines you show are actually running at right angles to the general air flow over a butterfly's wing when the butterfly is flying forward, and the veins are close to 90 degrees to the airflow.

As has already been pointed out, there's physical problems in running battens along the flow of apparent wind. It's been tried long ago.

On top of that, a butterfly's wings are moving up and down across the airflow much faster than a windsurfer rig. If I recall correctly, the up-and-down stroke of the wings means that the butterfly is regularly working at angles of attack much higher than a board when planing.

That, in turn, means that the aerodynamics move towards those of a delta wing, with its leading edge vortex that "scrubs" the flow and re-energises it. That is very effective at creating high left AND high drag - so it works for a Concorde at landing speeds or for a butterfly. However, a high-lift/high drag shape doesn't work for a board at most high planing speeds. It's like shoving a Wally rig on a sinker - you get shedloads of power but so much drag that you end up going slower.

I just opened a 1928 book on sail aerodynamics, and the first chapter is headed "Nature as a guide to the construction of a sail". By construction, as the text and diagrams make completely clear, the author means construction and design.

So sail designers have been looking at nature as a model for aerodynamics for at least 80 years. Actually it's much longer, because pioneer flyers like Lilienthal and the Wrights were inspired by birds.

Haircut
QLD, 6490 posts
20 Jul 2010 10:31PM
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lotofwind said...
till they are fat enough to spin a crystals(spelling),



google is our frend

www.google.com.au

ginger pom
VIC, 1746 posts
20 Jul 2010 11:44PM
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I thought butterflies flew sort of body first



skip the first 20 seconds

NotWal
QLD, 7430 posts
20 Jul 2010 11:45PM
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Gestalt said...

neil pryde used to build race sails with an extreme luff curve compared to other manufacturers.

problem was they snapped masts like toothpicks.

less curve allows higher loads to be placed on the luff wthout the mast breaking.

that said, graphically those butterfly wings would work for me.


They could do that now with the current crop of long skinnies - uber sail tension.

Gestalt
QLD, 14627 posts
20 Jul 2010 11:50PM
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i'm not sure, i think there is some skinny length thing still currently going on. it was in the bigger sails it was a problem and i don't know whether skinnies are suited to 490+ lengths yet.

NotWal
QLD, 7430 posts
20 Jul 2010 11:57PM
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Monty lists rdms all the way up to 550.

Gestalt
QLD, 14627 posts
21 Jul 2010 12:06AM
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^ monty may have figured something out different to the rest............. his sails certainly speak for themselves so no criticism there.

on a personal level i'm not a fan of sdm masts over 460 in length. from a feel point of view that is.

latedropeddy
VIC, 417 posts
21 Jul 2010 12:36AM
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ginger pom said...


I thought butterflies flew sort of body first



skip the first 20 seconds



that butterfly for the first 20 seconds looks a windsurfer trying to carry a 12m rig in 20 knots. kinda sketchy.

nosinkanow
NSW, 441 posts
21 Jul 2010 1:48AM
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Gestalt said...


that said, graphically those butterfly wings would work for me.


I can see Hotsails Maui introducing their SuperFreak Butterfly Range soon.

Not having a go at them, I really like their SuperFreaks and wish I could own a quiver of 'em....4.0 to 8.0 please.





Windxtasy
WA, 4017 posts
21 Jul 2010 9:35AM
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The one in the bottom left hand corner looks really cool!

evlPanda
NSW, 9207 posts
21 Jul 2010 12:12PM
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I'm going to throw delta wings into the conversation. I know the Naish kites have them. What's the story? (obviously hard to make a mast like that)

lotofwind
NSW, 6451 posts
22 Jul 2010 6:44PM
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Haircut said...

lotofwind said...
till they are fat enough to spin a crystals(spelling),



google is our frend

www.google.com.au


Whats a frend
might have to google it.

Bondalucci
VIC, 1579 posts
23 Jul 2010 12:54AM
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nosinkanow said...
[







nosinkanow, where were those pics when Severne were after a new employee??

I reckon you might've just about landed the job with those...

nosinkanow
NSW, 441 posts
23 Jul 2010 5:23PM
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Bondalucci said...


nosinkanow, where were those pics when Severne were after a new employee??
I reckon you might've just about landed the job with those...


I think that's a compliment, if so thank you kindly Bondalucci.



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"Nature Follows, Makes Move to Monofilm." started by evlPanda