Forums > Windsurfing General

Matching mast to sail. Bogus or not........

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Created by stone > 9 months ago, 12 Nov 2009
stone
WA, 243 posts
12 Nov 2009 10:07PM
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Hi all,
After alot of consideration i bought a new Powerex RDM 400, also have a powerex 430. I have a basic understanding of mast bend curve / flex, IMCS value's.

I've only been windsurfin for a couple of years and are no expert.

The question i put forward and hope for sum informed educated answears is that we get told by sail manufactures, websites, this forum, magazine articles etc that a certain sail MUST have their mast that that sail was designed for or the sail wont perform or set correctly etc etc.

If you use a north sail you gotta have at least their gold mast but reccomend platinum, severne gotta use the redline but can use blueline.

I can get my head around all this, Use the sail/mast combo that they were designed for/together by the sail designers. Makes perfect sense.. No worries..

So how do the other mast manufactures fit into this, Powerex, Amex, Pro Limit, Sunshine etc.

I use Powerex mast with Tush sails, My mate uses Powerex with KA, the other Powerex with NP, another sailor uses Severne mast and a North sail. Unlike me these guys are very experianced. If Powerex, Amex, etc masts are universal whats with all this same mast/sail carry on from the sail companies.

If you listened to and agree with what the sail companies say about all this than surely powerex, amex etc wouldn't exist.

How many Powerex mast are out their being used by us guys??

So guy's, educate me and others iam sure about all this.

Thanx.
Maybe Ben could comment.

Gestalt
QLD, 14627 posts
13 Nov 2009 12:18AM
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hi stone,

i use mainly powerex masts also. there has been a lot of talk about masts on this forum so i am sure some searches will provide the goods.

in short,

a sail is typically designed to suit a masts bend characteristics. and all masts across the board have different bend characteristics. even masts with the same stickers on them can be different between individual units.

so in short, find the mast with the right bend characteristic for a particular sail and it will work.

what confuses things is that some sails are top flex, some constant curve, some bottom flex and some a combination of the above.

some sail manufacturers like KA for eg publish the percentage their sails are designed for. most don't though.

this site www.peterman.dk/mast-imcs-comments.htm has a lot of spec results from testing but as i said above. 2 masts from the same manufacturer can have different actuall bends. that said though they will be close to each other.

typically brands like neil pryde, north and maui sail require non constant curve masts and the majority of the rest sit between flex and constant curve or there abouts.

it is always the best to buy a mast from the same brand as the sail. the other option is to buy the mast from another manufacturer, (like powerex etc) that has the same bend characteristics.

edit*** so not bogus with certain mast/sail combos and bogus for others.

also wanted to add that some sails will suit a wider variety of mast shapes and still work well while other sails are more mast specific. comes down to luff shape.

mr love
VIC, 2401 posts
13 Nov 2009 8:49AM
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Hi Stone , No it is not Bogus. Sail designers enter certain mast bend figures into the design software and the luff curves are designed around these figures. The sails will perform to their optimum on the correct mast.
However the impact of an incorrect mast varies greatly depending on the size and type of sail. Small wave sails for example which have small amounts of luff curve are much more tolerant of mast curve variations as you are not bending the mast enough for it to be hugely effecting the leech twist. They will perform adequately on a greater range of masts. Large race sails like Formula sails have high amounts of luff curve and are very mast specific.Youare bending the mast alot more and the differences in mast bend curves is far more evident. They will perform badly on a mast that is outside the design range of curve as the shape and leech twist will be impacted.
So if your freinds are rigging small wave sails in the combinations you describe they are most likely OK ( although Powerex on NP is pretty dodgy) . I can guarantee they would be better on the correct mast.
If they rigged a 10.7 Neil Pryde race sail on a Maui sails mast for example it would be a disaster, not work at all.
As a general rule always rig a sail on a mast that is close to the recommended IMCS mast curve percentage. Most brands don't publish that figure so email them and find out. There is generally a "non brand " alternative that will be close to the correct curve.
I hope I have shed some light on the subject.

djl070
WA, 290 posts
13 Nov 2009 8:23AM
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stone said...

Hi all,
After alot of consideration i bought a new Powerex RDM 400, also have a powerex 430. I have a basic understanding of mast bend curve / flex, IMCS value's.

I've only been windsurfin for a couple of years and are no expert.

The question i put forward and hope for sum informed educated answears is that we get told by sail manufactures, websites, this forum, magazine articles etc that a certain sail MUST have their mast that that sail was designed for or the sail wont perform or set correctly etc etc.

If you use a north sail you gotta have at least their gold mast but reccomend platinum, severne gotta use the redline but can use blueline.

I can get my head around all this, Use the sail/mast combo that they were designed for/together by the sail designers. Makes perfect sense.. No worries..

So how do the other mast manufactures fit into this, Powerex, Amex, Pro Limit, Sunshine etc.

I use Powerex mast with Tush sails, My mate uses Powerex with KA, the other Powerex with NP, another sailor uses Severne mast and a North sail. Unlike me these guys are very experianced. If Powerex, Amex, etc masts are universal whats with all this same mast/sail carry on from the sail companies.

If you listened to and agree with what the sail companies say about all this than surely powerex, amex etc wouldn't exist.

How many Powerex mast are out their being used by us guys??

So guy's, educate me and others iam sure about all this.

Thanx.
Maybe Ben could comment.




I use the Powerex Free 80 SDM's with Severne Overdrives and it works well.
I do sympathise Stone,it gets confusing

Mark _australia
WA, 23436 posts
13 Nov 2009 8:30AM
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I find a massive difference.......late model (after 2005) NP wave sails rig so badly on an Ezzy (No Limitz) RDM that they are almost unusable and the mid leech flaps so much it is destroying itself. I was pretty sure Powerex RDM's were similar to the No Limitz RDM's so I'd like to see how those NP's are working.

Haircut
QLD, 6490 posts
13 Nov 2009 11:08AM
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2010 alpha and firefly i've tried works equally good with powerex 85% rdm, as the x9 skinny

with either mast you can even downhaul the bejeesus out of it and panels don't flutter themselves to disintegration, unlike earlier np wave sails - as you stated

Mark _australia
WA, 23436 posts
13 Nov 2009 9:36AM
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Wow ..... NP must have gone back to a slightly more reasonable curve or something? It was quite obvious that 2004or5 to 2008 was a bit weird .... I had an 03 Zone that was magic on an Ezzy skinny and a 2008 Zone would not even look like a sail when rigged on it

ikw777
QLD, 2995 posts
13 Nov 2009 11:43AM
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So what would be a smart/reasonable strategy if you were windsurfing on a budget? Clearly it will get very expensive if you need to get a new mast whenever you get a new sail. Particularly so if (like me) you are considering transitioning from a complete quiver that is a few years old onto newer stuff, but can only do it one sail at a time.

nick0
NSW, 510 posts
13 Nov 2009 1:22PM
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not that ive seen a properly riged 5m naish force before but mine seems to rig fine on a 400 sailworks lipstick .... ive heard that stiffness of ya mast plays a bit part in how the sail sets 2? what will a stiffer mast do that a soft mast wont?

mr love
VIC, 2401 posts
13 Nov 2009 2:27PM
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Mark , the specifications I have seen recently put the NP Combat RDM at 15% ish and the Ezzy RDM at 14%ish. This is just data I have seen published on various forums ect so please don't take it as gospel.
If that is the case then there is not a huge difference in curve, certainly not as much as there used to be when the Prydes were more like 17% curve.

Bender
WA, 2235 posts
13 Nov 2009 11:40AM
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food for thought.

I have had both Tushy 75% SDM and NP x6's these two mast are the same and either rigged exactly the same in each others sails.

IMHO the Tushy 75%freewave is a better mast.

i have rigged the x6's in Tushy rocks and they were fine.

I'm even using a Tushy 75% in a RS Slalom and RS racing and its looks and sails identical to the recomended X6.

I sold my Tushy 490 75% to a fellow who uses it in a Severn Code red 8.3m with good results.

I hope this is some help. I think a safe bet could be a powerex or tushy for masts in a mixed quiver of sails

the only way to find out is rig them and see.

Bertie
NSW, 1351 posts
13 Nov 2009 3:05PM
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basically you need to try the combo on ur sail before you buy the mast, if the brands are a miss-match.
sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. its a case by case situation.

sausage
QLD, 4873 posts
13 Nov 2009 2:07PM
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As Bender mentioned, I also use a tushingham 490 100% mast with both my 8.8 (09)& 7.7(07?) Code Reds and they work beautifully. In fact the recommended mast for the 7.7 is a 460 Severne redline which doesn't rig nearly as well as the 490 Tushingham - go figure. Maybe I just got lucky with the mismatch.

Mark _australia
WA, 23436 posts
13 Nov 2009 12:17PM
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Tush is very similar to Pryde (tip flex) ..... My 2004 Search sets beautiful on a 30% Tush SDM

But maybe not so much now that Pryde seem to have gone for a more "middle of the road" bend charateristic.



Nick, softer and siffer is less important than bend curve.

If you use stiffer mast of the same bend curve it will just need more downhaul to achieve the "right" twist, and it will not deflect as much in gusts, making it better for heavy guys.
Eg: I have a 5.2 with 428 luff and recommended mast is a 400 (28cm extn). I prefer it on a 430 (same brand and model mast) with nil extn as I am heavy at 95kg.

That same sail, for down the line sailing where you want it to depower nicely, I'd bet any sailor of 60 - 80kg would much prefer it on the 400 with lots of extension

decrepit
WA, 12763 posts
13 Nov 2009 6:21PM
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ikw777 said...

So what would be a smart/reasonable strategy if you were windsurfing on a budget? >>>>>


Try and stick to constant curve stuff, (that way you can buy any of the non sail makers masts), and stay away from manufacturers that try and force you into changing your mast every time you update a sail.

mkseven
QLD, 2315 posts
13 Nov 2009 8:52PM
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Most things will work however, unless you are a professional who can test against people you sail with everyday or can easily tell fine differences and have access to many different masts then go for it- but that is not buying 1 random mast and hoping for the best.

Simply if you want the performance you paid for from your sail then match it to the correct mast

Ben Severne
WA, 194 posts
13 Nov 2009 7:53PM
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mkseven said...

Most things will work however, unless you are a professional who can test against people you sail with everyday or can easily tell fine differences and have access to many different masts then go for it- but that is not buying 1 random mast and hoping for the best.

Simply if you want the performance you paid for from your sail then match it to the correct mast


Yeah, most things WILL work. I think it'd be impossible to find a mast / sail combo that you couldn't windsurf with.
But to get the whole rig to work the way it was designed to it has to be rigged on the mast it was actually designed on. The design process is pretty manual - each size of each model is adjusted to fit a specific curve. It's not just a matter of plugging a mast bend % into the design software and letting it spit out a sail. (At least not on the top end sail brands)
When you put a different mast in the sail, it'll still get you out on the water. But without the windrange and performance. You might not realize it because you're not a professional or whatever, but you won't be planing as early as you could be and you'll feel overpowered and out of control earlier. Your windsurfing won't be as much fun as it could be.

If you're buying a new sail and you've already got a good mast with similar bend characteristics to the recommended mast you don't NEED to upgrade the mast. It'll work.
But if you ARE upgrading your mast at the same time it makes a lot of sense to buy the mast the sail was designed for. Otherwise you're not getting the performance and wind range that the sail is capable of (and you paid for).
Same goes for if you have a set of sails that you don't plan to upgrade for a while, and you need a new mast, it'd be crazy to not buy the specified mast.

P.C_simpson
WA, 1490 posts
13 Nov 2009 8:24PM
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I would 100% agree with using the same brand sail and mast combo, powerex are a good mast, strong durable and suit a large range of sails, i have used them on the Sailworks sails and Severne, but the sails realy come to life, rig way better, respond better and basically feel the way they are ment to on the proper mast..

The best advice i could give to people who are just starting out is to buy find a brand of sail you like to use, try to make all your sails the same brand, even better style and year, and buy the best mast you can afford from that company that the sails are design to run, it doesn't have to be top of the range mast but it should still rig perfect...

Masts are something you can use for a good few years and it gets used every time your sailing.. and you shouldn't need to update your mast everytime you update your sails.. if you stay with the same brand that is..

paddymac
WA, 938 posts
13 Nov 2009 8:57PM
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Ben Severne said...
Yeah, most things WILL work. I think it'd be impossible to find a mast / sail combo that you couldn't windsurf with.

Lucky me Gaastra Manic Neil Pryde X3 combo Yoyo told me why it looked like crap. It now rigs sweet on one of Ben's masts

Gestalt
QLD, 14627 posts
14 Nov 2009 12:35AM
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^ unfortunately we've all been there at some time. but once using the right mast/sail combo it is unlikely we will go back.

wsurfn
97 posts
14 Nov 2009 11:49AM
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I have an '08 6.2m2 Blade, and '07 5.7m2 and 5.3m2 Blades.

All rig on a 430 RDM. I have a '08 PWX 85%RDM, and also a '09 Maui Sails 100% RDM.

The Peterman site as well as other sites state the ideal mast, a Severne Redline, is a stifftop @ 9.8 curve.

The Powerex is a 13. The Maui Sails is a 9.1.

I think the Powerex looks better in my sails, especially in the '07s. I think the whole leech is too loose with the Triana made MS mast.

Since, I have not even seen a Severne Redline RDM in my neck of the woods (USA), I have no way of knowing for sure.

I recently talked with Derek Rjiff of Windsport, who told me Severne changed from a Powerex to a more stifftop mast at some point, but he was not sure when.

I am confused as well.


Haircut
QLD, 6490 posts
14 Nov 2009 11:57PM
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from what i've read from others and my own experience, i reckon the the powerex skinny 85% has been well proven to be a great all round, suit just about everything, and durable, kinda mast. i'd definitely get another



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"Matching mast to sail. Bogus or not........" started by stone