Forums > Windsurfing General

Kiting is not Sailing

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Created by whippingboy > 9 months ago, 27 Nov 2008
555
892 posts
28 Nov 2008 7:43AM
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nebbian said...

I advise you to check out this site:
www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/wrong1.html

It will show you that you are wrong. [}:)]



That didn't say he was wrong! Just that there is more to it, and that simplifying to this extent is confusing, and often misapplied.

www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/bernnew.html

oldie
VIC, 356 posts
28 Nov 2008 10:15AM
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The best kiters seem to be ex windsurfers? hmm.
Follow Nebbians link and waste an hour before you see the final truth-
"Air flows downwind and lift comes from bending it"
I wonder if (like Newtons apple falling on his head) Bernouli got his inspiration from vortex creation around his hair when he went for a walk in the wind.


graceman
WA, 323 posts
28 Nov 2008 9:58AM
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It is pretty simple really.
When kiter's attach the kite directly to the board that should do it.
Put a small mast in the middle of the board and attach the kite to that with pulleys etc.
Might even get me on one of those windsurfers

brady
TAS, 454 posts
28 Nov 2008 12:23PM
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whippingboy said...


Kite boarding cannot be regarded as sailing because:

The vessell has no bow or stern, therefore no port or starboard side.


Pacific islander boats - ie with outriggers make this point interesting. I don't think anyone would claim that they are not sailing. To turn around they take the mast off and put it at the new "bow". They take the tiller off and put it on the new "stern".



Port and starboard are analagous to left and right. ie - relative terms (to the direction of travel, or the direction you are facing or whatever) rather than absolute

On a different note, they also move impressively fast. Had such fun in them I seriously considerd building my own when I got home. But I figured trying to find a club to race one would be a challenge, and the difficulties any protest committee would have if there was an incident made my hair go curly!

Wet Willy
TAS, 2317 posts
28 Nov 2008 2:44PM
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nebbian said...

In simple language?

The air goes downwind.

The sail makes the air change direction a little bit.

The air pushes back (it doesn't like being told where to go), and puts a force onto your sail


In even simpler terms:
F = ma


I guess this makes sense.

Question - how come sailing on a dead run (with the sail surface fully exposed to the wind) is a lot slower than sailing, say, sheeted in on a close reach, which offers a lot less sail area to the wind? In simple terms again, please, Nebs.

(Btw how can we trust NASA after they faked the moon landing and covered up all those alien sightings??)

NotWal
QLD, 7430 posts
28 Nov 2008 1:59PM
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brady said...

whippingboy said...


Kite boarding cannot be regarded as sailing because:

The vessell has no bow or stern, therefore no port or starboard side.


Pacific islander boats - ie with outriggers make this point interesting. I don't think anyone would claim that they are not sailing. To turn around they take the mast off and put it at the new "bow". They take the tiller off and put it on the new "stern".



Port and starboard are analagous to left and right. ie - relative terms (to the direction of travel, or the direction you are facing or whatever) rather than absolute

On a different note, they also move impressively fast. Had such fun in them I seriously considerd building my own when I got home. But I figured trying to find a club to race one would be a challenge, and the difficulties any protest committee would have if there was an incident made my hair go curly!


Crossbow, holder of the outright sailing speed record back in the day was a proa.

whippingboy
WA, 1104 posts
28 Nov 2008 2:36PM
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Graceman has the answer !!!

A line connecting the bar to the board.
Doesn't have to be full on but the power source would then be connected to the board.
The line would be connected to one end of the board, which would then be the bow, presto you have an official sailing vessel

Better give those speed kiters a call

CJW
NSW, 1726 posts
28 Nov 2008 9:46PM
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Question - how come sailing on a dead run (with the sail surface fully exposed to the wind) is a lot slower than sailing, say, sheeted in on a close reach, which offers a lot less sail area to the wind? In simple terms again, please, Nebs.


It's probably best explained using vector analysis and in the age of the internet why type it up when someone has done it for you.



See full article here

www.physclips.unsw.edu.au/jw/sailing.html

yamigee
WA, 20 posts
28 Nov 2008 8:16PM
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Ah! To be australian is to take the pi$$! Now wheres the wind?!

windsufering
VIC, 1124 posts
29 Nov 2008 2:31AM
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thanks for that but the kiters will not under stand they still think the kite works the same as a sail

windsufering
VIC, 1124 posts
29 Nov 2008 2:39AM
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i would love to see a kite race a race board in ten knots of wind around a course to see who would win they are the quickest sailing craft it would be even funnier against a moth
oh i forgot the isaf says they arnt a sailing craft ha ha ha ha ha ha

Wet Willy
TAS, 2317 posts
29 Nov 2008 5:04AM
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Oh fer cr@p$ sake!

What is this tomfoolery? If you're sailing you've gotta have a mast, gotta be bouyant, gotta have an identifiable port and starboard etc etc...what's that got to do with anything? You'll be saying the vessel needs to have had a champagne bottle broken across the bows next...and no winged keels, or women aboard!

A kite may be similar to a sail, but basically the difference is that a kite is flown, on one or more lines, and a sail is directly connected to the boat/board/canoe/raft etc, and of course a mast is better than having a dude standing up holding it, so in general, yes, thee is a mast involved.

I'm sure the yachtsmen who refer to their spinnaker as a "kite" are not speaking literally, it's just a word, and it's almost like they're saying it because it's NOT a sail, more like a parachute, eh?


Can I finish this rant when I've sobered up?

oldie
VIC, 356 posts
29 Nov 2008 10:46AM
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Not much thought going into this thread.
Anytime now someone will claim that there is more power (woops, I mean energy) available from the wind when reaching compared to sailing dead downwind ...

Richiefish
QLD, 5610 posts
29 Nov 2008 11:10AM
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I was only kidding with the spinnaker thing........but then again, if i use a kite as a spinnaker attatched to my windsurfer, and do 60 knots, am i cheating ????

oldie
VIC, 356 posts
29 Nov 2008 12:32PM
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The surge as your sail is turned into the sweet spot is due to an increase in efficiency due to changing from a turbulent to a smooth airflow.

Vector diagrams forbidden, they are the refuge of the intellectual snobs.
We have a thought experiment for you, Willy.
It prove that the faster you sail, the more power you generate.
Look up wind turbine theory and imagine your rig is one of the blades.
The power output does not depend on the blade (sail) size, only the swept area of the blades, (provided that their area produces enough push to get you up to speed.)
This is why speed sailors can go to smaller sails.
Gonna sweep some area today, with a bit of luck :)

windsufering
VIC, 1124 posts
29 Nov 2008 12:35PM
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a kite is nothing like a sail they work in a u shape what gets draged by the wind they cant beat **** why i talking sailing terms they arnt sailing craft any way they will go away soon just like rollar disco

oldie
VIC, 356 posts
29 Nov 2008 12:55PM
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Yes, the kiter who got planing before me and pointed higher than me and had more fun than me the other day probably had a sail cunningly disguised as a kite.

Wet Willy
TAS, 2317 posts
29 Nov 2008 2:02PM
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Richiefish said...

I was only kidding with the spinnaker thing........but then again, if i use a kite as a spinnaker attatched to my windsurfer, and do 60 knots, am i cheating ????


Try it! Please!! My hero!!



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"Kiting is not Sailing" started by whippingboy