Happy New Year all!, Wishing you all the best for the year to come.
I headed to my usual spot and the wind was dropping off so I rented a 2013ish isonic 127. Board is short and wide (coffee table). Great board, just a few pump and I was happily planing. Wind came back and the wind was getting under the front of the board, I moved mast foot forward and managed to keep the board under control. But wind kept coming and I was flying over some chop, first two bits of chop was kind of fine nose was wobeling. But the 3rd, everything happened so fast, nose wobble and I was in the water with my ears ringing. How do I keep control of the nose? I think I might of had too much weight on the back and not enough over the board but I would really appreciate some advice from some more experienced larger board riders?
Also today my ankles are a bit sore, which I think is because the board is so wide. Any good advice is very welcome.
most of us would change to smaller gear, you cant fight the laws of physics
edit: Even if you did everything right like lower the boom, move mast track forward, adjust harness lines and your stance, if you are severely overpowered at best you'll be fighting to stay in control, crash less, but use up so much physical energy, disproportionate to the amount of fun you would have, so if possible change down. Smaller fin, smaller sail, and smaller board. If change down not possible eat cement and and grow larger testicles.
How heavy are you and what size sail and fin were you using?
A local here had an iSonic of around that size, used it with a 7.8m 3 cam freerace and 46cm fin. In light winds he was ok, but 15 knots average and he was all over the place. I was fine on a 110l/67cm freerace & 7.5m, 38 or 40cm fin in those winds.
He didnt have the weight (78kg) or skill to use it. That size board is made for 90kg+ PWA sailors with 8.5m+ sails.
That board has a wide tail so needs a large fin to match. You cant just stick a 38cm fin in as it wont cope with the leverage of the wide tail so well.
I see the brochure says fin 44-52cm fin and 7.8m - 9.6m, but thats for skilled heavy sailors. Lighter sailors would be on smaller boards.
Try a 42cm fin with 7.8m sail and move the mast foot forwards, but it still wont be comfortable in chop. After the wide board 'revolution' I saw a few people out on wide boards and they struggle when the wind/chop picks up a bit.
That said, this fella is using a recent iSonic 85cm board with a 7.8m & 42cm fin, but I reckon he is fairly talented and is on the edge of control.
Select to expand quotehardie said..
most of us would change to smaller gear, you cant fight the laws of physics
edit: Even if you did everything right like lower the boom, move mast track forward, adjust harness lines and your stance, if you are severely overpowered at best you'll be fighting to stay in control, crash less, but use up so much physical energy, disproportionate to the amount of fun you would have, so if possible change down. Smaller fin, smaller sail, and smaller board. If change down not possible eat cement and and grow larger testicles.
I agree. Boom height, mast track position, fin, harness lines should be adjusted.
If you get to the stage of having to move foot straps forward on a large board to keep control then I reckon its way past the time to change down.
I've tried a 7.5m sail, 40cm fin on my 125l/80cm wide board, wide tail of OFO 57cm and it feels terrible.
This is a good video of how to make your slalom board fly or not fly too much. But there are limits.
Agree with everything everyone's said above. Adding onto all of that, Once you've got it all fine tuned you've really got to keep the hammer down. Stay out at maximum stretch, keep the weight in the harness and keep plenty of foot and pointed toe pressure on. The second you let up the board will go wobbly and you'll end up doing a "rail ride half twist into catapault". Very entertaining for spectators, not so much when you're the unwilling participant.
You'd be surprised what you can get away with, even if you're a lighter/shorter rider, but as hardie said there is a point where the laws of physics should be paid attention to. We don't get nine lives like cats.
Hi all, thank you very much.
I'm 192cm and 95kg (am trying to get the weight down but it seems to be a long term project)
I was on a 7.8 freerace and a 44cm fin. Wind was over 15knts and by the end of the session I think closer to 20knts.
I have been thinking more about what happened, there was a buoy upwind from my and I was trying to reach it, I was pushing to close-reach so I could get to it. This put the chop directly in my path, I think I was leaning out and back more than I should of and as I went over the chop
well I just could not handle the wobble.
No question, the best thing would of been to get onto a smaller board and I could of been easily ripping it up.
Thank you so much for the videos, I watched them and yeah that Italian bloke is really at the edge and loving it. It does seem that his stance is more outboard then mine. But I have never recorded myself so I am not sure.
I do find that with these types of boards it makes my legs feel like thin little bread sticks (sorry I just can't think of a better way of describing it). With a smaller board I feel that, when I am in the straps, that my feet and legs have more control over the board but with this larger board my front foot seems to be constantly working in a toe up position and having to readjust it's position.
Any remedy on how I can get a bit more comfortable and get more control in the straps with this wider board?
Sorry to carry on with questions but I really want another go on it, it was pure fun and I enjoyed the feeling.
Select to expand quoteSubsonic said..
Agree with everything everyone's said above. Adding onto all of that, Once you've got it all fine tuned you've really got to keep the hammer down. Stay out at maximum stretch, keep the weight in the harness and keep plenty of foot and pointed toe pressure on. The second you let up the board will go wobbly and you'll end up doing a "rail ride half twist into catapault". Very entertaining for spectators, not so much when you're the unwilling participant.
You'd be surprised what you can get away with, even if you're a lighter/shorter rider, but as hardie said there is a point where the laws of physics should be paid attention to. We don't get nine lives like cats.
I was just reading your comment again do you think the best thing to do is stay outboard when you hit chop or get a little bit more on top of the board? At a guess, the chop comes in small waves of about 20 to 30cms.
I agree with Elmo, fully weight the harness, and sheet in. If you sheet out you are releasing too much down force from the sail mast base.
On that board, with your weight, sail and fin - 15 knots should be a piece of cake, perfect cruising with that set up. This assumes that harness, straps, mast base, etc are in balance. 20 knot wind with that set up should be doable with the comfort level variable depending on skill. iSonics are rough riding in chop. I have an old 111 with a 42cm fin and the perfect sail is my 7.6 race sail. Works best for me in 12-18 knots of wind. I weigh 170 lbs.
Adjust mast base so nose is just off the water, that way you will punch through an occasional high chop, instead of the wind getting under the nose, And use outboard position for straps so heel is just above the rail but not in the water. I sailed my MagicRide 81 cm wide 142 L board in those conditions with a 7.2 sail and 54 cm fin, I am 85 kilos, but I drop in on wave troughs and stay in the trough, it is like glass, have pushed the fin so hard the board came off the water! But no chop in a wave trough.
Select to expand quoteHenners said..Subsonic said..
Agree with everything everyone's said above. Adding onto all of that, Once you've got it all fine tuned you've really got to keep the hammer down. Stay out at maximum stretch, keep the weight in the harness and keep plenty of foot and pointed toe pressure on. The second you let up the board will go wobbly and you'll end up doing a "rail ride half twist into catapault". Very entertaining for spectators, not so much when you're the unwilling participant.
You'd be surprised what you can get away with, even if you're a lighter/shorter rider, but as hardie said there is a point where the laws of physics should be paid attention to. We don't get nine lives like cats.
I was just reading your comment again do you think the best thing to do is stay outboard when you hit chop or get a little bit more on top of the board? At a guess, the chop comes in small waves of about 20 to 30cms.
I find things tend to go better with weight off the side, main reason being i find keeping the sail locked down is critical. If i sit up generally it means the sail twists open somewhat. That means a loss of downforce at the universal joint which lets the nose of the board come up which leads to acrobatics/pain/suffering.
A quick answer without reading previous posts.
1. Move mast foot forward
2. Smaller fin
3. Straps back
4. Adjust (may need to lower) boom height
Of course try to tension your sail accordingly without making it so on-off twitchy.
Select to expand quotePhilUK said..
That said, this fella is using a recent iSonic 85cm board with a 7.8m & 42cm fin, but I reckon he is fairly talented and is on the edge of control.
He certainly knows how to sail and I love the vocals..
Select to expand quoteSubsonic said..
Agree with everything everyone's said above. Adding onto all of that, Once you've got it all fine tuned you've really got to keep the hammer down. Stay out at maximum stretch, keep the weight in the harness and keep plenty of foot and pointed toe pressure on. The second you let up the board will go wobbly and you'll end up doing a "rail ride half twist into catapault". Very entertaining for spectators, not so much when you're the unwilling participant.
You'd be surprised what you can get away with, even if you're a lighter/shorter rider, but as hardie said there is a point where the laws of physics should be paid attention to. We don't get nine lives like cats.
You'd be surprised what you can get away with, even if you're a lighter/shorter rider, but as hardie said there is a point where the laws of physics should be paid attention to. We don't get nine lives like cats.
Yes I just found that out..stuck out in a S change with the big kit- 112ltre board - 7.5m - 35cm fin , 61kg rider overpowered with 1.5m chop = OW..
Select to expand quoteHenners said..Subsonic said..
Agree with everything everyone's said above. Adding onto all of that, Once you've got it all fine tuned you've really got to keep the hammer down. Stay out at maximum stretch, keep the weight in the harness and keep plenty of foot and pointed toe pressure on. The second you let up the board will go wobbly and you'll end up doing a "rail ride half twist into catapault". Very entertaining for spectators, not so much when you're the unwilling participant.
You'd be surprised what you can get away with, even if you're a lighter/shorter rider, but as hardie said there is a point where the laws of physics should be paid attention to. We don't get nine lives like cats.
I was just reading your comment again do you think the best thing to do is stay outboard when you hit chop or get a little bit more on top of the board? At a guess, the chop comes in small waves of about 20 to 30cms.
Don't get over the board to cross chop
as above you will have the nose fly up and have the opposite effect
keep the hammer down
To be honest, even if your brain says back off and sheet out/stand upright, you just have to stay sheet'd in to fly smoothly over the chop when over-powered.
As soon as you sheet out, the chain reaction starts, less mast foot pressure, nose rises, speed reduces, then chop starts smacking the board giving control issues.
Sheeting in = fun
Select to expand quoteHenners said..
Also today my ankles are a bit sore, which I think is because the board is so wide.
with this larger board my front foot seems to be constantly working in a toe up position and having to readjust it's position.
I think this is pretty normal. Wider board, bigger fin = more leverage required. My first few times on a Formula board my shin muscles were screaming! You get used to it pretty quickly.
ahh yes wide boards in high wind and chop ,i social distance myself from wide boards in chop now ,smashed to many board noses
being a hard arse .
Wide boards are all about lift ,As the board hits the chop and airborne happens ,they are just doing their jobs lifting ....as many have said a small fin will help keep it down .the wide boards can act like a sail too ...
and up and over you go .and ankle killers as you said .in 15- 20 knot chop ,you survived ...and you found the boards limit ...
every board has its limits ,that why we have so many ..
..comfort in the right conditions ..having the right combo on the day is a dream come true .
Thanks, guys.
I managed to get out on the same board and rig but with fewer knots (maybe 16 to 18knts).
The chop was similar and so I started to experiment more working my way through all your advice and in some cases doing the opposite to see what would happen.
I just could not get the board to become unstable on the nose (must be wind getting under it) so I the future I am going to have a few more goes on it and see if I can't push a little bit more or become a little bit smarter and bear away and pick the best part of the chop to get through.
Maybe the word chop is the wrong way of putting it. The "Waves" are about 20 to 30ms running out in a line. A little bit like the wake of a ferry.
Thank you all again for your advice, most appreciated.
Select to expand quotemark62 said..
To be honest, even if your brain says back off and sheet out/stand upright, you just have to stay sheet'd in to fly smoothly over the chop when over-powered.
As soon as you sheet out, the chain reaction starts, less mast foot pressure, nose rises, speed reduces, then chop starts smacking the board giving control issues.
Sheeting in = fun
Ditto that.
Just to add a bit more, there was one think that I neglected. I have been using a seat harness. A few day's ago I borrowed one of the local members waist harness and there was so much more stability and control. With my old seat harness I always felt that I could never truly locked the sail in and I was always moving the sails balance point around. I've seen some of those videos were the riders take a hand off the boom and run it in the water. Never been able to do that when using my seat harness as if I did take a hand off I need to get it back onto the boom to keep things balanced. Thought it might of been my harness line settings and in the past I could get them positioned quite well but they never felt perfect. But with this waist harness I just hung off the boom could take a hand off and felt like everything was balanced. Wind was up and I was screaming along, the board was doing it's job and we were flying. Yeah I did have a little stack but I was pushing as hard as I could and I was getting more experience. So now I am saving my pennies to buy a new harness and retire the old 14 year old waist harness. I did have a bit of back pain after using the waist harness but I think it is just stance and using muscles that have not been getting a work out.
Thanks for reading.
Select to expand quoteHenners said..
Just to add a bit more, there was one think that I neglected. I have been using a seat harness. A few day's ago I borrowed one of the local members waist harness and there was so much more stability and control. With my old seat harness I always felt that I could never truly locked the sail in and I was always moving the sails balance point around. I've seen some of those videos were the riders take a hand off the boom and run it in the water. Never been able to do that when using my seat harness as if I did take a hand off I need to get it back onto the boom to keep things balanced. Thought it might of been my harness line settings and in the past I could get them positioned quite well but they never felt perfect. But with this waist harness I just hung off the boom could take a hand off and felt like everything was balanced. Wind was up and I was screaming along, the board was doing it's job and we were flying. Yeah I did have a little stack but I was pushing as hard as I could and I was getting more experience. So now I am saving my pennies to buy a new harness and retire the old 14 year old waist harness. I did have a bit of back pain after using the waist harness but I think it is just stance and using muscles that have not been getting a work out.
Thanks for reading.
I have always used a seat harness, first a big comfy Dakine XT for over powered windsurfing, and now for foiling a Dakine Reflex, they work perfect for me, super stable locked in feel and hook is always were you expect it to be.
Are you in Japan? If so, look into the Liberty Harness. Sits at the waist but has an around-the-butt attachment so it gives you the power of a seat harness but the strong wind good manners of a waist harness. Very expensive and time-consuming to ship to the US but I just love mine - greatly increases the range of any sail. If you're in US drop me a line - I have a couple of extra waist harnesses that would fit you - we're about the same size...
Select to expand quoteHenners said..
Just to add a bit more, there was one think that I neglected. I have been using a seat harness. A few day's ago I borrowed one of the local members waist harness and there was so much more stability and control. With my old seat harness I always felt that I could never truly locked the sail in and I was always moving the sails balance point around. I've seen some of those videos were the riders take a hand off the boom and run it in the water. Never been able to do that when using my seat harness as if I did take a hand off I need to get it back onto the boom to keep things balanced. Thought it might of been my harness line settings and in the past I could get them positioned quite well but they never felt perfect. But with this waist harness I just hung off the boom could take a hand off and felt like everything was balanced. Wind was up and I was screaming along, the board was doing it's job and we were flying. Yeah I did have a little stack but I was pushing as hard as I could and I was getting more experience. So now I am saving my pennies to buy a new harness and retire the old 14 year old waist harness. I did have a bit of back pain after using the waist harness but I think it is just stance and using muscles that have not been getting a work out.
Thanks for reading.[/quote
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..Henners said..
Just to add a bit more, there was one think that I neglected. I have been using a seat harness. A few day's ago I borrowed one of the local members waist harness and there was so much more stability and control. With my old seat harness I always felt that I could never truly locked the sail in and I was always moving the sails balance point around. I've seen some of those videos were the riders take a hand off the boom and run it in the water. Never been able to do that when using my seat harness as if I did take a hand off I need to get it back onto the boom to keep things balanced. Thought it might of been my harness line settings and in the past I could get them positioned quite well but they never felt perfect. But with this waist harness I just hung off the boom could take a hand off and felt like everything was balanced. Wind was up and I was screaming along, the board was doing it's job and we were flying. Yeah I did have a little stack but I was pushing as hard as I could and I was getting more experience. So now I am saving my pennies to buy a new harness and retire the old 14 year old waist harness. I did have a bit of back pain after using the waist harness but I think it is just stance and using muscles that have not been getting a work out.
Thanks for reading.
I have always used a seat harness, first a big comfy Dakine XT for over powered windsurfing, and now for foiling a Dakine Reflex, they work perfect for me, super stable locked in feel and hook is always were you expect it to be.
and never any back pain after using either seat harness.
Sandman, why did you change harnesses for foiling? Was it just time for a change?
My current harness is a Dakine blast seat. It does not have the molding of the current harnesses. Before posting I looked through some of the old posts on seat harness Vs waist harness. In my seat harness I can last a 4 hour session without issues but this waist harness I tried I was on the water for an hour and a half and had back pain. So I prefer a seat harness but a waist harness got me more control and I could push harder. But is it worth the pain?...
I want to see if I can borrow the harness again and see if I can change my stance to avoid pain.
Select to expand quoteHenners said..
Sandman, why did you change harnesses for foiling? Was it just time for a change?
My current harness is a Dakine blast seat. It does not have the molding of the current harnesses. Before posting I looked through some of the old posts on seat harness Vs waist harness. In my seat harness I can last a 4 hour session without issues but this waist harness I tried I was on the water for an hour and a half and had back pain. So I prefer a seat harness but a waist harness got me more control and I could push harder. But is it worth the pain?...
I want to see if I can borrow the harness again and see if I can change my stance to avoid pain.
the Dakine XT is big and comfortable, but limits movement because of the size. wanted more freedom of movement for foiling and did not need so much support because of less sail pressure in foiling, so Dakine Reflex worked out perfect, also allows for a life jacket and fanny pack (tools, shims, wind meter), XT back is too high for fanny pack.
What I do not like about a seat harness is the leg straps put pressure on my wetsuit in the crotch area, so got a pair of ACE shorts with cup and cup sleeve, solved the problem.
