Looking for a good freerace sail. Basically I am looking for something fast, no cams. I want to plug a hole in the 5.4 to 5.7 range.
I am happy to consider two cams, but think for the type of sailing I do, the no cam option would be better.
What have people got, what do they like?
Even better, anyone have one for sale?
KA Koyotes for me. Got 5.3 and 6.6, they have such a good wind range that if I had the 5.8 I'd hardly use it. But for what your after the 5.8 might be sweet.
Heard good things about the Severn's NCX too. Believe both sails have topped 40 knots.
3 weeks ago, I wittingly bought this magical purveyor of speed, NCX 6.5.
"Since that day, I have achieved flight without the use of propulsion, was asked out be Laurie Bingle, but the wind was up, and maintained a 100 per cent strike rate when inserting a USB stick."
Apparently, if the spray coming off the back of the board as I pass, hits you, your next jibe will be perfect.
In other words, it's a miracle sail, the young man whose name is on the sail must be the greatest export of SA, at least better than the beer.
DR Sheldon Cooper , theoretical physicist from Caltech, after seeing this sail in action has been quoted ? This sail has changed our thoughts on physicist ((board speed to wind speed)) Bazinga.
The premier of WA Colin Barnett only wishes he was as good as this sail.
Sorry all you sailors who have purchased a cam sail, you have been conned.
Select to expand quotecarbonart62 said..
3 weeks ago, I wittingly bought this magical purveyor of speed, NCX 6.5.
"Since that day, I have achieved flight without the use of propulsion, was asked out be Laurie Bingle, but the wind was up, and maintained a 100 per cent strike rate when inserting a USB stick."
Apparently, if the spray coming off the back of the board as I pass, hits you, your next jibe will be perfect.
In other words, it's a miracle sail, the young man whose name is on the sail must be the greatest export of SA, at least better than the beer.
DR Sheldon Cooper , theoretical physicist from Caltech, after seeing this sail in action has been quoted ? This sail has changed our thoughts on physicist ((board speed to wind speed)) Bazinga.
The premier of WA Colin Barnett only wishes he was as good as this sail.
Sorry all you sailors who have purchased a cam sail, you have been conned.
I'll have what he's having. . . .
Sailed my ncx twice, hated it.
Rigged it like any normal sail which I'm told is wrong and needs to look like a sack of potatoes for it to work!
Never had any issues with naish and prydes over the last twenty years or ezzy or north or airwave or gaastra.
Still could be something I'm doing wrong.
I don't have one but from what I've read they need a bit more donwnhaul than specs to work well.
Select to expand quotescott265 said..
Sailed my ncx twice, hated it.
Rigged it like any normal sail
Don't give up, try more outhaul when you take it out for the third time. I've found the specs are a pretty good starter, allow for a little stretch as it beds in. They like quite a bit of outhaul tension compared to say an NP Hellcat.
Select to expand quoteSputnik11 said..
Looking for a good freerace sail. Basically I am looking for something fast, no cams. I want to plug a hole in the 5.4 to 5.7 range.
I am happy to consider two cams, but think for the type of sailing I do, the no cam option would be better.
What have people got, what do they like?
Even better, anyone have one for sale?
A hole?
I'm not offering advice as I'm only a relatively inexperienced sailor, just making observation that you must be very tuned in to your gear and the conditions to need 3 sails so close together.
I only identify 3 wind ranges that I swap sails in and out of. Low - around 15kts, med around 20+ kts, and holy crap - which is usually how I feel above 25kts. I have 4.5, 5.3, 5.7, 6.5, 7, 7.7 .
The sail I choose is usually based on what I think I will need to get planing in Lulls but I am pretty lazy and will persevere with a sail that is a either bit over / under powered. When the wind is around 25Kts+ I could use 4.5, 5.3 , 5.7 and not notice a lot of difference but I don't use GPS or race so it's just my feeling of comfort in those conditions.
Neilpryde Hellcat. Great no cam free race sail. Super stable and also looks a shed load better than an NCX.
If your looking to buy a new mast to suit then no problem, but if you are wanting a sail that works on your current 430 or whatever then just be aware, which I'm sure you are anyway, that some sails may not suit, or work as well as they should without the recommended mast.
I'm now running an NCX 7.0 on an NP X6 460. Feels fine to me, maybe someone with a softer touch could tell the difference. I rigged a 6.0 NCX on an NP 430 before the proper mast arrived. It was also fine. I couldn't get the 7.0 to work on a Maui sails 460 mast though.
Select to expand quotegregob said..Sputnik11 said..
Looking for a good freerace sail. Basically I am looking for something fast, no cams. I want to plug a hole in the 5.4 to 5.7 range.
I am happy to consider two cams, but think for the type of sailing I do, the no cam option would be better.
What have people got, what do they like?
Even better, anyone have one for sale?
A hole?
I'm not offering advice as I'm only a relatively inexperienced sailor, just making observation that you must be very tuned in to your gear and the conditions to need 3 sails so close together.
I only identify 3 wind ranges that I swap sails in and out of. Low - around 15kts, med around 20+ kts, and holy crap - which is usually how I feel above 25kts. I have 4.5, 5.3, 5.7, 6.5, 7, 7.7 .
The sail I choose is usually based on what I think I will need to get planing in Lulls but I am pretty lazy and will persevere with a sail that is a either bit over / under powered. When the wind is around 25Kts+ I could use 4.5, 5.3 , 5.7 and not notice a lot of difference but I don't use GPS or race so it's just my feeling of comfort in those conditions.
Sorry Greg - wasn't clear enough. I have a 5.5 that needs replacing and I want to replace it with something between 5.4 and 5.7.
Select to expand quotewestozwind said..
Neilpryde Hellcat. Great no cam free race sail. Super stable and also looks a shed load better than an NCX.
I have a 2013 Hellcat, it is a good sail. If you look at the profile it has heaps of shape. Looks like my cammed sail without the cams. Heaps of shape below the boom, in fact it's pretty close to touching the boom outline and flat up top. So good power but still plenty of top end. We've had some strong winds in Sydney lately and I ve been using the 6.2 hellcat in 15-30 knots.... Yep gusty winds.
From a practical consideration. If you don't have a mast, there are plenty of used pryde masts in the market, but not so many of the others.
I considered an ncx but it would of cost too much with a mast upgrade. I had a Coyote, good fast sail but didn't have the bottom end of the Hellcat. However I was using it with a pryde mast.
It must be the 2014 model above, they do look good.
The only issue I've had with the hellcat is that that they have made the mast sleeve stupidly small. Getting the mast in and out is a pain and needs a lot of wrinkling of the sail so may cause pre mature wear.
Ezzy Cheetah:
Way better build quality than the Hellcat and way more range, much more bottom end, handle bucket loads of wind, I would say they actually feel better overpowered than under.
Heaps easier to rig, whoever signed off on the mast sleeve size on the Hellcat needs a new tape measure unless they were using the new 'skinny skinny' mast that is yet to be released! I could literally see the NP falling apart n after just a couple of months use, the Cheetah will do years of service, no monfilm makes it way more durable. I have owned and used both sails spent plenty of time on the water with both and with manufacturers masts so a pretty fair assessment...
Ezzy have a much more 'alive' feeling also, they tend to absorb big gusts, I think they are easier on your arms as they tend to be more forgiving and have a more constant pull feel. If you like twitchy on/off power then the NP will feel better, I haven't sailed the Severne, so no comment.
Select to expand quoteIan K said..
I'm now running an NCX 7.0 on an NP X6 460. Feels fine to me, maybe someone with a softer touch could tell the difference. I rigged a 6.0 NCX on an NP 430 before the proper mast arrived. It was also fine. I couldn't get the 7.0 to work on a Maui sails 460 mast though.
That seems to contradict the received wisdom that Severne masts are hard top. Certainly in Peterman's database they are all over the place from 8.4% (hardtop) to 14.6% (soft top).
Select to expand quoteNotWal said..Ian K said..
I'm now running an NCX 7.0 on an NP X6 460. Feels fine to me, maybe someone with a softer touch could tell the difference. I rigged a 6.0 NCX on an NP 430 before the proper mast arrived. It was also fine. I couldn't get the 7.0 to work on a Maui sails 460 mast though.
That seems to contradict the received wisdom that Severne masts are hard top. Certainly in Peterman's database they are all over the place from 8.4% (hardtop) to 14.6% (soft top).
Yes I know, it's not what we'd expect, that's why I first grabbed the Maui sails mast when looking for a fill in. The Maui mast still held a tight upper leach when the leach above the boom was about right. Sailed very heavy. The NP mast is good for the time being, though I'll probably eventually get another Severne mast.
Could add the converse seems to be true that when I somehow acquired a new Maui sail very cheaply, I was hoping it might run on an NP mast. It didn't. Hence the extra mast (which together with the cheap Maui sail brought me back to the cost of just an NP sail, you can't win )
Select to expand quoteSputnik11 said..
Looking for a good freerace sail. Basically I am looking for something fast, no cams. I want to plug a hole in the 5.4 to 5.7 range.
I am happy to consider two cams, but think for the type of sailing I do, the no cam option would be better.
What have people got, what do they like?
Even better, anyone have one for sale?
Have a look at a Koncept...3 cams ,no draft movement like with a camless sail, wider wind range, and faster. Use mine everywhere ,flat and ocean.
Not sure why you'd use anything else other than a wave sail, marketing I guess
Select to expand quoteIan K said..scott265 said..
Sailed my ncx twice, hated it.
Rigged it like any normal sail
Don't give up, try more outhaul when you take it out for the third time. I've found the specs are a pretty good starter, allow for a little stretch as it beds in. They like quite a bit of outhaul tension compared to say an NP Hellcat.
I was told that the sail needs to sit on the back end of the boom and that when powered up the belly would take up the slack.
If anyone could take a picture of there ncx on the beach so i can see close up what it should look like i would be most grateful.
Cheers
Really interesting discussion. Appreciate all the input.
Further question, sort of feel I know the answer, but should I consider the sail independent of the mast? Again, as an advanced recreational sailer, I am not about finding an extra knot of speed to compete on a race circuit, but I don't want it to rig well and feel good.
Sputnik: With the NCX Pro (and the newer Gators), just check the boom pocket height with the dealer if you're short. I've owned eight Severne sails in my time and they all have higher than average boom pockets. Both me and a mate own some newer NCX Pro's and Gators (2012, 2013 models). We are the same height (170cm) and the boom pocket cut outs are too high for our height. My newer Gators are usable, but when it's really light, the boom is rammed into the bottom end of the pocket sleeve. My NCX Pro was not useable in marginal conditions and ended up taking it to a sail maker. He lowers the boom pocket 8cm to accommodate my height in marginal conditions. The sails I purchased would be impractical for short sailors. So, just beware of that. Other than that, apart from a few quality issues with the panels with some of the newer sails, they are all excellent easy to use and easy to rig sails.
Scott: Not sure what mast you are running, but I find I can't stuff up the rigging. Both the Gators and NCX's have so my different settings that work. Flatten them out (less down haul, more outhaul) to make them responsive, or you can bag them out (crank the downhaul, less outhaul) to increase bottom end and make them release gusts. All settings feel comfortable, no matter what (but that's just me).
I'd recommend the North X-types (currently using a 5.4, 6.0 and 6.6) They are great for blasting with a locked in feel, easy to rig and the freedom of no cams. You can bag them out to get more grunt or use the lower clew position to twist off the power when super overpowered.
Select to expand quoteJonesySail said..
Ezzy Cheetah:
Way better build quality than the Hellcat and way more range, much more bottom end, handle bucket loads of wind, I would say they actually feel better overpowered than under.
Heaps easier to rig, whoever signed off on the mast sleeve size on the Hellcat needs a new tape measure unless they were using the new 'skinny skinny' mast that is yet to be released! I could literally see the NP falling apart n after just a couple of months use, the Cheetah will do years of service, no monfilm makes it way more durable. I have owned and used both sails spent plenty of time on the water with both and with manufacturers masts so a pretty fair assessment...
Ezzy have a much more 'alive' feeling also, they tend to absorb big gusts, I think they are easier on your arms as they tend to be more forgiving and have a more constant pull feel. If you like twitchy on/off power then the NP will feel better, I haven't sailed the Severne, so no comment.
Interesting and informative comments Jonesy. The narrow mast sleeve is a bit tough to de rig on the larger sizes I agree with that. But I never found them twitchy. I have found them super stable and easy to sail. I wonder what was going on there for you. They are designed to run in the top end of the size and must be correctly down hauled using a NP extension measurement ( about 2cm different to Chinook )
Like you I also found the EZZY goes very well. I've only had a few short runs on Ezzy so can't say much other than I like them so far and would be an excellent other option. I did notice the boom length on Ezzy Cheetah is very short. Throughout the range they are about 5 cms less than Hellcats ( and Hellcats have large cut away clews). To me when comparing a a 7.5 cheetah to a 7.7 Hellcat, Ezzy feels like a much smaller rig. Maybe this could account for the different feel you experienced. I did notice the gust absorbing effect of the Ezzy. In Hellcats it tends to be a lot tighter.
I guess over time we all develop different styles. The best advise regarding Freerace sails is try out as many as you can before buying one. I tried a NCX 7.5 a while back and found that one excellent as well. It is pretty hard to get a bad one these days.
Thanks Jonesy - I am 170cm as well. Pretty ** of sailmakers to ignore the vertically challenged. And I am tall when it comes to the guys I sail with. . . .
Sorry if I'm taking this off topic , noticed quite a few freeracers were using non cam sails on the weekend, I've always thought to have my biggest sail w. Cams as it would be more efficient in marginal winds, what's everyone's thoughts?
If you get the right non can freerace sail and bag it out is that enough?
There are some good magazine articles written in the past about Cam V No Cam...no doubt Cams gives you the extra 5-10% performance...and especially in lighter winds they excel, they also have a 'wider' wind range, they tend to 'pull you through the lulls' and you can sail deeper off the wind.
You can't bag a camless sail out like you can a race sail, if you do when you power up they get 'backhandy'
Having said that, drop a big race sail in the ocean, let the luff fill with water...have fun getting that sucker up!
..this is where the camless sail kills it 1000 times easier to uphaul/water start.
What people need to consider is 'can I get that extra 5-10% out of that big fancy expensive hard to rig sail'...I'd say a lot of sailors can do with the extra water time, less rigging time, less hassle and just get out there and do it...lets face it , if your not making your gybes, struggling in tougher conditions..struggling with fitness and or strength, no sail is going to make you a rock star sailor...too many people focus on the latest gear instead of their sailing.
Even all the manufactures point people to their tuned down 2-3 cam /no cam sails in preference to their full on race sails...they know what's heaps easier and more fun to sail!
I think wave sailing is far more honest in this respect..often see guys on really old model gear just smashing it...you look at their gear in disbelief, but their skills speak for themselves, they focus on the sailing and the conditions, less so the gear.
Some good, honest stuff in there Jonesysail.
I'm slowly steering away from cammed sails. I do like some aspects of them, but there's plenty of facets I dislike- many of which were touched on in the above post. Currently I'm heading down the fast free-ride sail route, and have only breifly played around with a KA Kotoye. In the right hands (and in the right conditions) this sail is capable of 40 plus knots, yet it has all the ease and benifits of a normal free-ride sail. I have tired a few other free-ride sails and found once up around the magical 30 knot mark they start to get a little spooky. So I too am reading with great interest the influx of info, though it sounds like there's not too many really fast non- cambered free-ride sails on the market.
Yeah KA , they're onto it, looks good, if you can have a small or almost no sleeve Cam sail that's super easy to rig...then why not.
Whatever is user friendly and easy has to be good!
No doubt at 40 knots the Cams sails are going to be much more stable/better...I'm sailing the Freearce Series where average speed is the key ...I'd be happy with a +25kn hour...no chance of hitting 40!
