Are cambers really that good in getting you from 1 gust to the next? It has been a couple sessions I can plane when the gust hits and ride it all the way and then stall enormously till the next hits. Would a camber-sail help me plane all the way better, or is it more lack of skill?
I'd say it depends on what board you are riding too and your skill level and awareness of wind changes and chop and current etc.
If its a slalom board then yes or even a freerace board then cambers might help but anything else probably won't make too much of a difference.
Also depends on the fin too as some generate more lift than others and some stall easier.
Also depends on how patchy it is. If you get a 100m puff and a 400m lull, no chance..
Cambered sails combined with an adjustable outhaul certainly helps, but it is hard to quantify.
Cambers keep more power yes by retaining sail foil / lift. While a raf sail will flatten when not powered.
My personal experience says that a cambered sail gets you through the lull the furthest. It may be mostly to do with using apparent wind more efficiently. And getting a bit more from a slight pump.
you don't waste the pump with filling out the sail.
but there are very efficient light cambered sails and heavy slugs.
Select to expand quoteThomas123456789 said..
Are cambers really that good in getting you from 1 gust to the next? It has been a couple sessions I can plane when the gust hits and ride it all the way and then stall enormously till the next hits. Would a camber-sail help me plane all the way better, or is it more lack of skill?
Yeah, but do you want the issue of carrying/slugging around on a heavy wieldy sail when you're beginning ?. Cammed sails feel like **** when conditions are marginal, and could counteract what you are achieving to do due to the extra weight of the sail pushing the board in the water more. I don't know about the +7m models, but sizes less than that are designed to be sailed overpowered anyway in order to sail broad reach. Plus cammed sails are harder to dial in. However, if you can get a $100 2nd hand jobbie, then why not ?
I notice a big difference on foil between a cammed sail vs not in terms of glide in light wind. Seems like with any wind at all I can stay up flying.
However, I cannot speak for the same on a fin.
But when my Cheetahs eventually give up, I'll probably replace my 8 with an 8.5 Lion and my 9.5 with a 9.5 Lion. A little less luff sleeve to make pulling them up less painful if I bust a jibe. More range if the wind picks up and maybe a little more go in the lulls I hope.
The severne overdrive sails are really lightweight, and highly recommended. Even the newer race sails, like the Mach series are really lightweight compared to the reflex series and other race sails from that time.
I think its mostly down to skill but if you have decent skills a cammed sail will help in the lulls..
You cant put all cammed sails in the same basket. There is bigger difference between a 2 cam freeride sail and a full on 4 cam slalom race sail, than there is between a no cam freeride sail and a 2 cam freeride sail.
With 6.5m+ sails I sail mostly in Poole Harbour which is fairly gusty and prefer a 2 cam Ezzy Lion to no cam due to the glide you keep through lulls as the sail keeps its shape. Its marginally more stable in gusts and seems to go upwind better. I prefer 2 cam for foiling for the same reason, a steady pull instead of more on/off pull of a wavier sail as it goes flat in lulls.
Also, in gybing the 2 cam gives instant power once the sail is flipped, the no cam takes a moment to fill out and give you that power again.
They rotate cleanly without effort. I've tried rotating friends 4 cam slalom sails and they didnt want to budge without help of a decent amount of wind in the sail.
With 2 cam Ezzy Lion with its narrow luff tube is no different to waterstart than a no cam regarding water up the luff tube. With windsurf on fin downhaul setting, its easy to pop the cams by hand once I've got it out the water. With the lower downhaul setting for foiling, its a bit harder to pop them by hand.
If I had to choose a sail size to use from no cam Cheetah or 2 cam Lion, I'd pick the same size. If I had to choose a size between 2 cam Lion and 4 cam slalom sail, I'd pick a slalom sail about 0.7m larger to make up for the lack of low end power. Obviously the 4 cam would be faster, if using a fast board.
My 2 cam Ezzy Lions are no harder to rig than a no cam, the cams go on with finger pressure only, if you follow the rigging instructions. I cant understand why more people dont use them. Some people have a phobia about cammed sails for some reason. Probably used them 20 years ago when they were totally different beasts.
I think most brands produce a narrow luff tube, 2 cam freeride sail.
Select to expand quotePhilUK said..
I think its mostly down to skill but if you have decent skills a cammed sail will help in the lulls..
You cant put all cammed sails in the same basket. There is bigger difference between a 2 cam freeride sail and a full on 4 cam slalom race sail, than there is between a no cam freeride sail and a 2 cam freeride sail.
With 6.5m+ sails I sail mostly in Poole Harbour which is fairly gusty and prefer a 2 cam Ezzy Lion to no cam due to the glide you keep through lulls as the sail keeps its shape. Its marginally more stable in gusts and seems to go upwind better. I prefer 2 cam for foiling for the same reason, a steady pull instead of more on/off pull of a wavier sail as it goes flat in lulls.
Also, in gybing the 2 cam gives instant power once the sail is flipped, the no cam takes a moment to fill out and give you that power again.
They rotate cleanly without effort. I've tried rotating friends 4 cam slalom sails and they didnt want to budge without help of a decent amount of wind in the sail.
With 2 cam Ezzy Lion with its narrow luff tube is no different to waterstart than a no cam regarding water up the luff tube. With windsurf on fin downhaul setting, its easy to pop the cams by hand once I've got it out the water. With the lower downhaul setting for foiling, its a bit harder to pop them by hand.
If I had to choose a sail size to use from no cam Cheetah or 2 cam Lion, I'd pick the same size. If I had to choose a size between 2 cam Lion and 4 cam slalom sail, I'd pick a slalom sail about 0.7m larger to make up for the lack of low end power. Obviously the 4 cam would be faster, if using a fast board.
My 2 cam Ezzy Lions are no harder to rig than a no cam, the cams go on with finger pressure only, if you follow the rigging instructions. I cant understand why more people dont use them. Some people have a phobia about cammed sails for some reason. Probably used them 20 years ago when they were totally different beasts.
I think most brands produce a narrow luff tube, 2 cam freeride sail.
Thanks for the comments on the Lion and Cheetahs.
FWIW the Severne HGO 9.0 requires more fine tuning than others, but it's a 4 cam race sail, and rotates no problem as long as I'm coming through jibes with speed. If I slow down during a jibe and become waterborne again, it takes a big yank. Same if I do a regular tack. But, after rotation at foiling speed, it is not an issue. And that's on a 2nd hand sail that I destroyed the lower batten and replaced it with one from my old sail. I have had sessions where it was windy enough and my crashes weren't severe enough that any spills I took, I was able to waterstart that sail and get foiling again pretty easily. I've had days where I didn't even uphaul that sail once. But, in bigger chop and swells in less protected areas and it will fill with water and it becomes an undertaking.
The Foil Glide 2 7.0 with 3 cams rotates very easily.
The only non-foil cam sail I've had my hands on was an RSX 9.5, and it had a more narrow luff sleeve than the HGO, but it felt so heavy and different in comparison that I don't recall the rotation being as much of an issue as dealing with that thing while on a foil.
Select to expand quoteThomas123456789 said..
Are cambers really that good in getting you from 1 gust to the next? It has been a couple sessions I can plane when the gust hits and ride it all the way and then stall enormously till the next hits. Would a camber-sail help me plane all the way better, or is it more lack of skill?
As many as said already: a cam sail offers a better glide. Some more than others, my old switchblade 7.3 felt like a tractor in light air! Plus there is the stability. I am now using cam less Point-7 ACX. They are great, but overpowered in chop they are less stable than my twin cam Point-7 ACZ. The Z seems to put my AC 60 on autopilot, so steady.
But rigging of the Z is a touch more elaborate, it is heavier, and that seems to be enough ...between an old ACX 6.5 and the new ACZ 6.8 the tendency is to reach for the X!
My experience with full-cam race sails is their stability when overpowered which allows you to use sails at least a meter larger than a non-cam sail. Being able to use a sail a meter larger is what would give you the advantage when coasting through lulls. As far as the ability of no cam sail to hold its shape in a lull, there is a huge variety between brands and models. Some wavesails are dead flat when sitting on the beach while others have substantial draft locked in. For example, my Simmer wave sails have a very locked-in draft when sitting on the beach or coasting through a lull, especially in sizes above 4.5. In sizes over 5.0 there is a significant pop when the sail rotates, somewhat like a cam sail. Given the same size, I would put the Simmers up against a cam sail in coasting through lulls and they pump better to get on a plane. Of course, if I am on a 5.0, any serious racer on a cam sail will be on at least a 6.0 which is not something I would want to deal with due to all the extra weight and handling issues.
I would agree that many non-cam sails, especially some wave sails, rig very flat when not under load and these will lose power in lulls but I am not sure these are truly RAF (rotating asymmetrical foil) sails since they are not a foil unless under load.
Unless you want to start rigging sails a full meter larger, I don't think full-cam sails are the best solution. Consider a no-cam sail with a deeper and more locked-in draft like Simmer.
