So i have a pink np foil and use it with a 2018 isonic 127 with a 7.8m sail. i seem to be progressing ok ( 4 short sessions) but im still after any tips does any one have answers to these questions.
I weigh 108 KG but always use it in the neutral rear foil setting , with a bit of extra lift it seemed impossible to hold down and easy to stall , what setting are others using ?
Should i pull that tail rudder off ?
I started off balancing using only the sail and now i have moved to balancing by making small changes up and down wind , like if it lifts to high i bear off a little and to low i go up wind a bit yet people say move weight back and forth does every one agree with that , is there any other advice for this?
It seems to sit at a steady 15- 17 knots easily ( when im on a good run :) ) my max is 20 but with experience is it possible to have it comfortable at much higher speeds with the same foil angle settings or does it end up a one speed thing?
Hey Simon
I have a few different foils but I did learn on the "Pinkie" NP AL. I found it to be very forgiving (at least compared to high performance foils)
NP foils will need a different set up than say the Naish Thrust. My Board is 225 x 79 @ 122 liters
video from last November on a 6.4 -
I use the NP alu foil with formula board & mainly a 7.7 sail. Whilst I found it fairly easy & not scary with the big board I suspect it is too big for the foil as I have trouble keeping it in the air for long. Tried 8.4 sail which didn't seem to lift much better but flew lower. Any info please, specifically;
1. Is formula board too big for this foil?
2. I need to maintain lots of back foot pressure to keep it flying. This does not seem right.
3. I move the track around but doesn't change it a lot, a bit more front footed but still mainly back foot.
4. I have back foot on the deck in front of or on top of rear straps. Seems to fly better the further back my foot goes but a bit less stable.
5. Tried the washer but on my board it had little effect but made it slower. Have given up using it.
6. I need a lot of speed to fly, would be planing with a formula fin. Not really going anywhere in less that 12 knots or so.
Confused
Hi Bruce,
I gave up on the np pinkie, not enough power generated to take off in med/light wind and quite unstable for my level (intermediate 92kg)Select to expand quoteBRUCE H said..
1. Is formula board too big for this foil?
Yes indeed, had the same set up, a pig to fly, rs flight seems to work ok on boards up to 85 wide. Not powerful enough for large and (in my case) heavy formula boards
2. I need to maintain lots of back foot pressure to keep it flying. This does not seem right.
Unfortunately it's the only way you'll keep it up there.
3. I move the track around but doesn't change it a lot, a bit more front footed but still mainly back foot.
I used to put my base all the way to the front
4. I have back foot on the deck in front of or on top of rear straps. Seems to fly better the further back my foot goes but a bit less stable.
The more vertical pressure above the mast the better it takes off. But yes without straps (unless you're going downwind) it's tricky
5. Tried the washer but on my board it had little effect but made it slower. Have given up using it.
Shouldn't slow it down, I couldn't fly without it in less than 12 knts, but once in the air, you have to give it to the np alloy, it's fast ! Maybe you should give it a few more tries with the washer on the stab
6. I need a lot of speed to fly, would be planing with a formula fin. Not really going anywhere in less that 12 knots or so.
Same here, gave up, sold it, kept the formula, now flying a starboard on it, perfect !
Select to expand quoteBRUCE H said..
I use the NP alu foil with formula board & mainly a 7.7 sail. Whilst I found it fairly easy & not scary with the big board I suspect it is too big for the foil as I have trouble keeping it in the air for long. Tried 8.4 sail which didn't seem to lift much better but flew lower. Any info please, specifically;
1. Is formula board too big for this foil?
2. I need to maintain lots of back foot pressure to keep it flying. This does not seem right.
3. I move the track around but doesn't change it a lot, a bit more front footed but still mainly back foot.
4. I have back foot on the deck in front of or on top of rear straps. Seems to fly better the further back my foot goes but a bit less stable.
5. Tried the washer but on my board it had little effect but made it slower. Have given up using it.
6. I need a lot of speed to fly, would be planing with a formula fin. Not really going anywhere in less that 12 knots or so.
Confused
it seems were all getting really different beahviours from it or maybe just different scales of whats fast/windy/stable. one thing with your comment though that i notice too is the back foot strap , the moment i try to use mine i crash there is just no control any more, i think this is becase on the is127 the strap is so outboard your heel would be the water if the boards not railed up in normal sailing and the foil requires me to push down the the heel not just sideways. The take off speed is what i expected for a foil that size and it doesnt need that much wind , i definitly take off earlier than i would plane on teh same gear with no foil.
seems like you are getting the same feeling as me from the washer it doesnt seem to do anything better with that , maybe ill try the washer the other end to get less lift next time .
Select to expand quoteCoreAS said..
Hey Simon
I have a few different foils but I did learn on the "Pinkie" NP AL. I found it to be very forgiving (at least compared to high performance foils)
NP foils will need a different set up than say the Naish Thrust. My Board is 225 x 79 @ 122 liters
video from last November on a 6.4 -
This is riding the NP F4 foil using 7.7, same board and same exact foot strap, mast deck position but gives you a drone angle off the take off (winds were very light around 8-12 mph).
on the Pinkie - use the washer for lift assistance, without it you'll struggle in light winds. For stronger winds go to neutral for control.
I would not take the tail "rudder" piece off! Foiling stance is different from regular windsurfing as you don't continue putting pressure on the back leg. If possible use a slightly smaller rig - I know your a heavier guy but bigger sails create a lot of drag and can make the learning curve more difficult.
Move mast deck forward more than usual windsurfing, and position your foot straps forward as possible (if you have another set of
in board foot strap holes, then do that as well).
Sounds like your still in the leg pressure balancing point stage? Bear off to get board speed, load up back foot and pop foil onto the wings,
then you have to load up pressure on your front leg and level the board off.
If you go to high and it starts to breach, you only have a nano second to bear off and re-group. Using the sail only is actually OK, I still use the rig to assist the pressure on the board when in light winds!
Whats your definition of light wind. I think im finding it easiest to sail in about 12 knots
I've never had the chance to fly the pinkie but I hope this is helpful. I've flown the same foil on older conventional boards 83 and 100cm wide and on a foil specific board. It makes a difference and I found that I was spending a lot of time fighting stuff that was in the wrong place - especially straps and mast track.
The pink is designed to match an 80ish cm board. Add to that - in foiling, especially starting out, you are much more upright. Those outboard back straps on a Formula-ish or LW board are meant to push against a 55-70 cm fin. Moreover, they may be too far back/forward to balance the foil. If these are your first flights, ditch the back straps. As well, on a conventional board, the alignment (fore/aft) of the back straps relative to the fin is not critical unless you are finely tuned and racing or refining your GPS runs. For the foil board it matters. Again, until you sort out where the back foot wants to be on your board with your fin, not having straps back there helps.
If you are feeling awkward foot pressure, move the mast track back/forth and tinker with the boom height settings. In flight, you should be balanced between the front/back foot. If there is too much back foot pressure, lower the boom or push the mast base forward a few cm and vice versa. If you've maxed those out, move the front straps fore/aft to change where you are balancing over the wing.
I'm also betting that having some stab angle will help starting out because the speeds are slower and the extra lift helps. Unless you are having to push the nose down at speed, a washer won't be hurting you. For your first flights speed is not the objective. A conventional board will almost always be faster so don't get caught up in that.
Of course, I could be wrong about all this...
Select to expand quotePaducah said..
I've never had the chance to fly the pinkie but I hope this is helpful. I've flown the same foil on older conventional boards 83 and 100cm wide and on a foil specific board. It makes a difference and I found that I was spending a lot of time fighting stuff that was in the wrong place - especially straps and mast track.
The pink is designed to match an 80ish cm board. Add to that - in foiling, especially starting out, you are much more upright. Those outboard back straps on a Formula-ish or LW board are meant to push against a 55-70 cm fin. Moreover, they may be too far back/forward to balance the foil. If these are your first flights, ditch the back straps. As well, on a conventional board, the alignment (fore/aft) of the back straps relative to the fin is not critical unless you are finely tuned and racing or refining your GPS runs. For the foil board it matters. Again, until you sort out where the back foot wants to be on your board with your fin, not having straps back there helps.
If you are feeling awkward foot pressure, move the mast track back/forth and tinker with the boom height settings. In flight, you should be balanced between the front/back foot. If there is too much back foot pressure, lower the boom or push the mast base forward a few cm and vice versa. If you've maxed those out, move the front straps fore/aft to change where you are balancing over the wing.
I'm also betting that having some stab angle will help starting out because the speeds are slower and the extra lift helps. Unless you are having to push the nose down at speed, a washer won't be hurting you. For your first flights speed is not the objective. A conventional board will almost always be faster so don't get caught up in that.
Of course, I could be wrong about all this...
yes thats what it feels like the back strap is far to out and back for the foil, but with the wacher i couldnt even hold it down and it would stall easy as i think the angle of attack was to high, this seems strange though seen as im the heavyest here and the only one complaining about that. I get the feeling it would help if the whole foil assembly was back more
Thanks guys, I will remove the back straps (I have been lazy, I still do Formula) and use the washer again and try the mast further forward. I suspect that a smaller board may be the best answer though. I have tried a mates 80cm Isonic and it certainly took off earlier, just harder to control and I was even less expert at that time. The formula board is certainly a more secure platform.
Select to expand quoteBRUCE H said..
1. Is formula board too big for this foil?
Yes. The leverage at the fin box is proportional to the weight of the rider, his distance outboard and how hard he pumps. . (The pink mast itself is big enough and ugly enough to counter this moment no matter how heavy-footed the rider). The pinkie is known to fail at this location so sticking to a narrower board will reduce the chances.
2. I need to maintain lots of back foot pressure to keep it flying. This does not seem right.
I did too when I started, on an IIsonic 122, me @ 80 kg, Was standing back foot behind the back straps! But now that problem has disappeared. Maybe raw beginners over sheet , too much forward moment from the sail, then stand back to compensate, then over pitch the foil. Put it down to trim.
3. I move the track around but doesn't change it a lot, a bit more front footed but still mainly back foot.
I've Left everything in the middle until I get a better feel for differences.
4. I have back foot on the deck in front of or on top of rear straps. Seems to fly better the further back my foot goes but a bit less stable.
Once you get them in the straps it's better.
5. Tried the washer but on my board it had little effect but made it slower. Have given up using it.
I started with no washer, tried the washer, no difference, gave up using it for a bit but now I'm using it again.
They say the washer pitches up the main foil and makes it easier to get going? Doesn't make sense to me, the last word on trim is down to the rider's weight. The washer moves the balance point forward but final trim must be how you position yourself relative to that.
After much pondering I've come to the conclusion that the main reason for negative lift from the rear foil has to be pitch stability. Consider a micro pitch up from the main foil. Up front the deck rises, towards the rear it drops. If the rider's weight is well ahead of the main foil then as it pitches up the rider must rise too. Even a stiff legged rider will have inertia to resist this pitch, stabilising the whole thing. If the rider is further to the rear a pitch up from the main foil might not even raise the deck. The rider would have detect the pitch and actively pump down with his feet. And closer to the the rear a push with the feet won't have as much effect. Subtle, sub-conscious, weighting and unweighting is quicker than fore and aft trim or in and out sheeting and probably a big part of keeping it all together.
So more downward pitch of the rear foil forces the rider's weight forward to a position where natural pitch stability is better, like an arrow head. Trouble with dialling up a lot of rear down pressure is that the extra down lift, which is balanced by extra uplift from the front foil, comes with a drag penalty. Lengthening the fuselage might allow lower rear wing angles to achieve the same balance point, but then there's the risk of extra fuselage drag.
6. I need a lot of speed to fly, would be planing with a formula fin. Not really going anywhere in less that 12 knots or so.
ConfusedYes the pink foil needs a fair bit of wind. I think we'll get better at keeping it going in lulls with practice though. Still not there yet.
IanK - good points and it clarified a bit what I should say.
If a lot of back foot pressure is needed to fly and it flies better with the back foot further, it suggests that the weight is too far forward on the board. Just a thought (I hesitate to even say suggestion): if possible, move the front strap back so the rider can get their weight over the wing. All that back foot pressure is indicating that there's too much weight/pressure, etc in front of the wing. This assumes the micro stuff of lower boom/further forward mast foot doesn't take away some of that pressure.
On the washer - let's make sure we are all on the same page. We are talking about putting the washer under the front stab screw, right? Like up elevator on an airplane.
Ok I've been using the NP pink foil since oct last year and have experienced most if not all the issues note in previous posts for reference am 85kg -average windsurfing ability. Initially I started on a older Patrick 155 free ride board about 78cm wide but have recently upgraded to a jp 135 foil board ...yep like this foiling !
Key points:-
- for my weight i found without the washer in on the back stabiliser I struggled to get the foil to fly
- mast position is important and the closer you can set up to the '1250mm' position per a jp foil board makes a huge difference ( I ended up measuring up off a jp foil board)
- foot straps you want as wide ie on the rails to give most leverage - front to back positioning of these is the key though again measure off a foil board as the front strap position is important -normally on a non foil board it's too far forward. I always used both straps and found having feet in straps to be the way to go at least for me
- mast movement, body movement, front foot pressure and general reactions to gusts must be slower and small if you want to keep flying agin still learning here but takes time ... for me at least x15 sessions to start getting this right
- sail size.. still learning here I tend to go out on to big a sail and end up over powered ( crash!!) I try as a rule in 12-15 knots To use a 6.7 or 7.7m & 15-17 knots 5.7 or 6.7m ....above this go out on normal slalom board ! The sail size selection is the hardest thing I've found with the np foil as it struggles to get going in 10-12 knots and then if you go too big with the sail you're quickly overpowered as the wind picks up. A small 10-20mm movement of the mast foot though can mitigate a lot of this overpowering but is a hindrance in variable winds
Ive also asked reg. at Wsp about getting in a few of the NP blue (Rs) front wings which are 40mm wider and I believe might help with the lighter winds, allow a smaller sail to be used at the outset - will post how this goes
Secret though is just stick at it and except a few big falls ...is such a buz when you start getting it to fly especially downwind !!
I have the standard purple Pryde foil and use it on a 5 year old Tabou 125litre 79cm wide Manta slalom board. I strengthened the back of the board under the rear straps and over the top of the fin box. I used many layers of carbon/epoxy and a wooden block to spread the load of the mast bolts. The deep Tuttle box was also filled to meet the top of the foil. Hopefully it will last!
I have only had a couple of sails with it so far but my recent sail in the ocean at Mooloolaba was surprisingly good with no dramas. The board seemed very well balanced, which I suspect is just luck. I am 75 kgs and sailed in a NE 12 to 14 kts breeze which was enough to get it up and over the 0.5 metre swell and wind chop. I try to keep the board only just above the water but the board was still a very smooth ride as it seemed to rise with the waves. I used the rear washer for the light wind. The foot straps are in roughly the same position as the normal board/fin setup. I always have the front foot in the strap before trying to lift the board. I may pump the sail a few times and if the board lifts I usually put the rear foot in strap too. It is balanced in the more upright stance and offers some security if the nose dives suddenly. If the nose starts to lift rapidly I lean the rig (an Ezzy 7.0 Cheetah) forward and body weight too to get the nose of the board back down under control. I try to stay on course, if I bare away the speed increases giving more lift. Not what I want.
I recently asked Neil Pryde about different front foils and they said that a larger foil will be coming out this year. Hopefully it will get going a bit earlier. I am sure that as I use it more things will change. I hope this helps someone!
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Queensland/Windfoiling-Broadwater-Parklands?page=1
nice video from the qld forum , that foil specific board looks like it would help alot , wide at the back and foot straps inboard
Select to expand quoteSimon100 said..CoreAS said..
Hey Simon
I have a few different foils but I did learn on the "Pinkie" NP AL. I found it to be very forgiving (at least compared to high performance foils)
NP foils will need a different set up than say the Naish Thrust. My Board is 225 x 79 @ 122 liters
video from last November on a 6.4 -
This is riding the NP F4 foil using 7.7, same board and same exact foot strap, mast deck position but gives you a drone angle off the take off (winds were very light around 8-12 mph).
on the Pinkie - use the washer for lift assistance, without it you'll struggle in light winds. For stronger winds go to neutral for control.
I would not take the tail "rudder" piece off! Foiling stance is different from regular windsurfing as you don't continue putting pressure on the back leg. If possible use a slightly smaller rig - I know your a heavier guy but bigger sails create a lot of drag and can make the learning curve more difficult.
Move mast deck forward more than usual windsurfing, and position your foot straps forward as possible (if you have another set of
in board foot strap holes, then do that as well).
Sounds like your still in the leg pressure balancing point stage? Bear off to get board speed, load up back foot and pop foil onto the wings,
then you have to load up pressure on your front leg and level the board off.
If you go to high and it starts to breach, you only have a nano second to bear off and re-group. Using the sail only is actually OK, I still use the rig to assist the pressure on the board when in light winds!
Whats your definition of light wind. I think im finding it easiest to sail in about 12 knots
My definition of light wind is 9-14 mph (or 10-15 knots). The pinkie is the least light wind foil I have but I find it very stable in gusty winds.... I need 11/12 knots to get it to fly.
I just got the JP hydrofoil pro board in and we had a wicked gusty day 15-30+ so I used the pinkie and it worked pretty nice.
No washer in! Foot straps in board
Ok courtesy of Reg at WIndsurfing Perth I got to try a NP pink today with a cut down/ shortened mast ie about 600?mm as opposed to the std 850mm. Reg has shortened about x3 of these as a bit of an experiment
wind - light 10-12 knots with small gusts above that certainly not the 15 knots shown on sea breeze
sail - 8.7m KA race .. bit too heavy mass wise? But ok was a very light day
board - jp foil 155
Overall impression... this is the perfect way to start foiling ie would have been great to have the shorter mast before I'd fallen 20++? times learning with the taller NP mast. On the Occassion when the foil does break the water ie combination of gust and too slow reaction! the board isn't way out of the water, seems to fly straight almost like jumping chop and you land a whole lot easier( level) plus learning the small movement to keep it level is also easier since the up/ down reaction is less. Slight downside (after experiencing the taller mast first) is the 'flying magic carpet sensation' seems less but you still get a nice gliding sensation, you get planning when others aren't and you're not concerned with getting it wrong as you're not soo high out of the water !
Overall a winner.
I hope np bring out a bigger front foil conversion for the pinkie I would certainly buy one! I've been thinking of having a go at making a bigger one myself but would prefer a store bought wing..
They do make a bigger wing it's the one they sell with the rs-one blue NP Ali foil about 40mm wider ... am trying to get one as we speak
definitely the way to go.
the reason I bought the pinkie was I demoed the blue one, was told at the time it was the same..... not !
much easier take off with the blue wing, but do check with seller that they will honor the warranty if you swap wings ! (few twisted fuselages over here after the exchange)
The larger RS One Wing bolts straight on nicely and is a really easy way to stretch the wind range of the RS Flight Alloy foil. On demo and in stock at the moment if people are keen to feel the difference.
Sam.
Ok managed to get hold of a RS one convertible G10 front wing for the pink NP Ali off a seller on sea breeze
pictures below show the difference in width ( original wing on top) but also area which I wasn't expecting other difference is that the trailing edge is a lot flatter than the original
will have a go tomorrow and advise the difference on the water
Ill update my progress on this, I ended up running ith with no washer and i removed the rudder fin which is much better, I quickly progressed to good steady foiling but couldnt hold stability once in the harness but i finally have started to figure that out I also removed the rear strap as the front bolt was exactly where my foot had to go. Im thinking about getting a starboard carbon foil soon as every one is getting very compeditive foiling where i sail now and i need more speed :)
