So I've been concerned for a while about the increasing numbers of wing-foilers using Lucky Bay in Applecross. Many are learning (which is fine) but they are doing it right in the middle of where people on slalom gear are zooming in and out. There have been quite a few near misses but yesterday I was unfortunate enough to collect one at full speed. Luckily there were no injuries to myself or the wing guy, but my favourite Patrik slalom board ended up with a nice ding in it, so I was pretty pissed off. Basically the guy decide to gybe a few metres right in front of me leaving me nowhere to go....I tried to pull up wind but he was too close, so the inevitable collision. Though he was apologetic and reckoned he saw me , he could offer no explanation for gybing right in front of me apart from saying "well these things are not that easy to manoeuvre"...
So this all raises the question a lot of my slalom and sail foil friends have been asking....why can't the wing foil guys (and girls) move a bit further north up towards the kiting area and then everybody would have their own space and we could all be safe. It doesn't seem an unreasonable request does it?
We are going to have some growing pains, as there will be a massive influx of people to wingfoiling, many with little sailing experience. Also the wingfoilers seem to be pretty enamored with transitions, so they turn quite a bit. Certainly something that they don't need to be doing in the middle of someone's speed run, though
It took a few years for the kite spots to be differentiated from the windsurf spots. I guess the same will be for winging.
When we all learned our planning gybes we were all taught to look back before initiating the gybe, so we wouldn't turn into a sailor blasting downwind of us. My guess is that this may not be second nature to those wingdingers coming from sup or surf backgrounds.
I think its good you bring it up. Did you post it on seabreeze wingfoiling forum?
PS: sorry about your board
sucks, but you being the experienced sailor makes you responsible for watching out for the newbies. If he was a few meters (2-4) away when he decided to jib and you could not avoid him then you were too close to him in the first place. Lesson is to give other people more of a buffer and being prepared to change your run direction, or stop, when necessary. Could you have just let the sail out, come off plane, and dug the tail into the water? Yeah, you end the run but no ding to your board. Fortunately wingfoilers, and in particular newbies, are relatively slow which should make it easier to avoid them.
I had a big power boat owner deliberately drag his daughter in a tube right across my windfoil run, he must of thought his wake would be a problem for me, but I made sure to be just off the top of the wake crest so I did not foil out on the other side. His kid was screaming "he is coming right at me!", but I had plenty of water to work with and was ready to cut upwind if I got too close, they were heading downwind.
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..
sucks, but you being the experienced sailor makes you responsible for watching out for the newbies. If he was a few meters (2-4) away when he decided to jib and you could not avoid him then you were too close to him in the first place. Lesson is to give other people more of a buffer and being prepared to change your run direction, or stop, when necessary. Could you have just let the sail out, come off plane, and dug the tail into the water? Yeah, you end the run but no ding to your board. Fortunately wingfoilers, and in particular newbies, are relatively slow which should make it easier to avoid them.
I had a big power boat owner deliberately drag his daughter in a tube right across my windfoil run, he must of thought his wake would be a problem for me, but I made sure to be just off the top of the wake crest so I did not foil out on the other side. His kid was screaming "he is coming right at me!", but I had plenty of water to work with and was ready to cut upwind if I got too close, they were heading downwind.
I think that is the part of the problem nauli is getting at though. a lot of the wing foilers (and freestyle windfoilers) are all about tight carving and transitions, and they can follow upwind/downwind paths that normal windsurfers can't or won't be expecting them to come from. Not to mention their approach is completely silent, no board chatter to warn other sailors of their approach.
Experience doesn't count for much if you can't predict their next move, and even if both riders are experienced, the two different styles of sailing are a perfect set up for collisions. It only takes a moment of inattention for a collision to occur.
im hoping to give wing foiling a go one day, it looks like great fun, but i can see naulis' point. Melville is a tight spot as it is. I think its quite a reasonable and well meaning request to ask. It's in everyones interests to avoid collisions, and an unwritten rule in this case would increase everyones enjoyment, since everyone will be able to focus more on their ride and less on players coming out of left field.
edit: maybe stick this in the wingfoil and/or WA forum nauli. I don't know that the wingfoilers get in here much, now they have their own forum.
Honestly, the things I have to watch out for do not move, they are the telephone poles standing 2-3 meters above the water with No Wake signs on them. Missed one at fullspeed by less than a meter, and then only saw it through my sail window, which was too late if I was on track to hit it. So now I am always looking around for those poles and the crab trap bouys too! Since COVID all the usual kitefoilers and windsurfers have gone away.
Nauli makes a good point, we are not used to their unusual direction changes. Especially the upwind turns. To be safe I reckon it would be good for them to sail in no-man's land until we are all on the same page.
Select to expand quoteremery said..
we are not used to their unusual direction changes.
What's to get used to? Swerving is what they do. But speedsailors doing 35 knots and scanning forward a mere 30 degrees port and starboard are not going to have any sneak up on them. Simple geometry. If you see one in your 60 degree field of view aim to miss him by 15 metres. That's a 2 seconds buffer at his top speed of 17 knots - should be plenty of time for you to evade if they don't spot your approach.
Sure they should have a token look about before swerving, but you're approaching at high speed, easy to slip up. Much easier for the faster vessel to forward scan than for the half-speed vessel to be fully aware of what's going on astern.
www.researchgate.net/figure/Collision-Course-Geometry_fig1_312254367
The pole situated just as you approach the sandbank has been taken down at Lucky Bay by the State Government.
It was a great marker to where the water starts to get shallow.
We need a bright buoy with a heavy anchor as a replacement asap.
Select to expand quoteIan K said..remery said..
we are not used to their unusual direction changes.
What's to get used to? Swerving is what they do. But speedsailors doing 35 knots and scanning forward a mere 30 degrees port and starboard are not going to have any sneak up on them. Simple geometry. If you see one in your 60 degree field of view aim to miss him by 15 metres. That's a 2 seconds buffer at his top speed of 17 knots - should be plenty of time for you to evade if they don't spot your approach.
Sure they should have a token look about before swerving, but you're approaching at high speed, easy to slip up. Much easier for the faster vessel to forward scan than for the half-speed vessel to be fully aware of what's going on astern.
www.researchgate.net/figure/Collision-Course-Geometry_fig1_312254367
Theres plenty of situations where there is no 15m buffer to give though, the stretch at melville where everyone sails in/out is certainly no exception. Theres also plenty of situations where you can provide the room, but the rider performing erratic manoeuvres well... performs erratic manoeuvres and suddenly theres a foil sitting halfway through your board anyway.
its akin to freestyle jet skiing (and they're restricted to certain play pens around the river) If you know you're going to be performing erratic manoeuvres that require the focus you'd normally give part of to looking around, then you start your day on the water by putting yourself where others aren't.
Are you arguing for designated areas for speedsters or for foilers to always see you coming ? Foilers must be much easier to give a safe distance to than kiters who can boost at the drop of a hat. The reality is we all mostly just look where we're going. Or swerving to. Is it even possible to stay foiling while taking a good hard look to the rear?
Not much looking behind here.
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Carves--video-?page=1#12
Select to expand quotenauli said..
Basically the guy decide to gybe a few metres right in front of me leaving me nowhere to go....I tried to pull up wind but he was too close, so the inevitable collision.
This more a problem unique to f***wits not looking over their shoulder before jibing / jumping / boosting (kiters) / .
This is one of my pet peeves with people. It's really not that hard to look over your should before doing any of the above.
Select to expand quoteIan K said..
Much easier for the faster vessel to forward scan than for the half-speed vessel to be fully aware of what's going on astern.
Good point. But in many spots, room to change course is quite limited. At our local spot, we have to pinch hard just to make it past the swimming area. If there is a kiter (or winger) before us, there's no way to keep a course that's 15 m upwind or downwind. Neither is jibing an option, since you'd end up in the swim zone. Quite annoying when a kiter in front of you just decides to turn on the spot, without looking back.
In the incident described by nauli, part of the problem is the faster speed of the speed surfer. If he's going at 30 knots, he is gaining 10 meters per second on the winger. If the winger does check behind him 5 seconds before he turns, the windsurfer is still 50+ m behind, which may look far enough. If the windsurfer is on a speed run going downwind, the winger would have to look 180 degrees behind him, which is hard and unlikely to happen.
Chances are that the winger in this incident did not look, but speed differences (and different preferences about going in a straight line) make things a lot worse. Another winger moving at the same (slow) speed as the first winger would have had enough time to change course.
Bottom line is that physical separation makes a lot of sense. At our windsurfing beach, many kiters and wingers use the same narrow launch, but then go upwind right away to get into clear waters. When their skills and the wind are good enough, they are never a problem. Problems only arise when skills or wind are marginal, or with the occasional kiter who insists on sailing always in the same "lane" as the windsurfers.
