I'm 75 kg with Slingshot Wizard 125 liter.
After 2 years Infinity foils now using happily PTM926.
I'm looking for a front foil to lower my low wind limit.
I saw E1090.
Anyone has experience with this foil as low wind foil.
The specification of E1090 are somewhat in between Sabfoil 1100 and 1250, or would these last foils be better.
Then there is also G1007, which is smaller.
Maybe there is even more out there.
Try ptm999 for a huge low end boost with a similar feel and glide to the 926. G1000 is another option, but it feels really big.
Since we know what board and foil you use, in order to advise you appropriately, I think it would be interesting to know what your current low end limit is and with what sail.
Select to expand quoteEugenius 2.0 said..
Since we know what board and foil you use, in order to advise you appropriately, I think it would be interesting to know what your current low end limit is and with what sail.
Right.
As my biggest sail I use a Severne Gator 6 m 5 with a short 188 cm wishbone.
With the PTM926 I get easily on foil from 12 knots, but it's always hard to say how many knots exactly, and furthermore I foil on sea with sometimes chaotic conditions and current that helps or current that works against you. Maybe less 11 knots.
I'm nearly ashamed or embarrassed to say but lately I've even been windfoiling with the PTM926 with my biggest sail a Severne Gator 8 m, but rather seldom. This Gator 8 m is not a narrow sail : 197 cm wishbone + cut out. In ordering I made a mistake. I thought all Gator sails have the same design, but there are (were) 3 types based on the surface.
With this 8 m Gator I get up around 10 knots even with current. I know it seems big, but the sail is rather light 4,4 kg, water starting is no problem as well as pulling up the sail. To get on foil I need the trapeze but once on foil it rather light and I could get out of the trapeze.
When I read about foiling with 8 - 10 knots with 5 m sail, I guess I must be doing something wrong.
A very important factor for taking off in very light winds is the condition of the water surface. There's a big difference between a flat water surface and a rough one.
On the island, we have several stations a few hundred meters from each spot, where, in addition to cameras to monitor the sea's condition, they also measure wind parameters: direction, average speed, maximum and minimum gusts, and history with graphs from the last two hours. These are fantastic tools for understanding the performance of the equipment in each water and wind condition.
To give you an example, we have a more sheltered spot where the water is fairly flat, and another open to the sea, where choppy seas and waves are generated with the slightest breeze. With exactly the same equipment, in the first spot, the takeoff is always very easy and in the second spot, it is always much more difficult, requiring more technique, physical effort and more wind to do the same.
It seems to me that your PTM926 is similar to my Balz Pro 969. Using the same board and the same sail, I need a minimum of 3 knots more wind to take off in the choppy spot than in the flat water spot.
With the 1250 wing I can take off with about 4 knots less than with the Balz Pro 969. Keep in mind that the technique of taking off in light wind is a coordinated combination of pumping the sail and the foil appropriately.
The 1250 is a wing that was initially designed to do dock start pump foiling, so the most important thing for taking off in light wind is to pump the foil efficiently to generate lift (and this wing has a lot of it)
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
Are you in gusty conditions with low lulls, or fairly steady winds?
Fairly steady winds, sometimes some variation about 4 knots I would say, so definitely no on/off.
But as I said before we have tides and therefore currents that help or push against.
The main reason for having a bigger low wind front foil is :
I have about a 1 hour drive to the shore. Once there when I'm in my wetsuit, rigged up sail and the wind drops it would be convenient to just switch the front foil. This is just little work compared to rigging another bigger sail (if possible, that means if I'm not yet at the biggest one). I hate derigging and returning home without sailing, a waste of petrol.
I don't mind going a bit slower as long as I can foil. Better than slogging.
Select to expand quoteEugenius 2.0 said..
A very important factor for taking off in very light winds is the condition of the water surface. There's a big difference between a flat water surface and a rough one.
On the island, we have several stations a few hundred meters from each spot, where, in addition to cameras to monitor the sea's condition, they also measure wind parameters: direction, average speed, maximum and minimum gusts, and history with graphs from the last two hours. These are fantastic tools for understanding the performance of the equipment in each water and wind condition.
To give you an example, we have a more sheltered spot where the water is fairly flat, and another open to the sea, where choppy seas and waves are generated with the slightest breeze. With exactly the same equipment, in the first spot, the takeoff is always very easy and in the second spot, it is always much more difficult, requiring more technique, physical effort and more wind to do the same.
It seems to me that your PTM926 is similar to my Balz Pro 969. Using the same board and the same sail, I need a minimum of 3 knots more wind to take off in the choppy spot than in the flat water spot.
With the 1250 wing I can take off with about 4 knots less than with the Balz Pro 969. Keep in mind that the technique of taking off in light wind is a coordinated combination of pumping the sail and the foil appropriately.
The 1250 is a wing that was initially designed to do dock start pump foiling, so the most important thing for taking off in light wind is to pump the foil efficiently to generate lift (and this wing has a lot of it)
Exactly flat water allows a quicker take off than bump and jump conditions, with 1 correction that a well timed wave or swell can help to get on foil while this would not be possible otherwise. But I'm fairly sure this small advantage doesn't outweigh the disadvantage.
I would mind going slower and I understand I will need to pump with the feet.
Before when I was using the Infinity I also liked the Infinity 99 cm in position C for little wind and/or the wind dropped (even with a bigger sail).
One thing I noticed and said many times to other foilers that didn't understand me :
On salt sea water I had big benefit from the Infinity 99 cm because of the pumping movement.
Of fresh inland water I have no benefit from the Infinity 99 cm compared to the Infinity 76 cm. I assume the extra drag equals the extra lift.
To me this seems logical because of the higher density of salt water.
Always been amazed I'm the only one to notice this. Someone else too ?
The Sabfoil 1100 or 1250 had good specifications but perhaps for avoiding problems with the M8 / M6 screws I looked for an alternative within the Phantasm range.
Anyone good or bad experiences with such big wide foils 1100 or 1250 on a Phantasm fuselage.
I was thinking about :
- E1090
- G1007
Maybe there are others too.
Select to expand quotejdfoils said..
Try ptm999 for a huge low end boost with a similar feel and glide to the 926. G1000 is another option, but it feels really big.
I don't want to be critical and I'm just a beginner . but
To me these specifications seem so close to me :
PTM926 1214 cm2 aspect ratio 7
PTM999 1125 cm2 aspect ratio 8,9
G1000 1355 cm? aspect ratio 7,4
And on the other hand :
Sabfoil 1100 2100 cm2 aspect ratio 5,7
Sabfoil 1250 2400 cm? aspect ratio 6,5
E1090 2200 cm2 aspect ratio 5,4
G1007 1700 cm2 aspect ratio 5,96
This looks another big (pump) league.
Select to expand quoteYellowHelmet said..jdfoils said..
Try ptm999 for a huge low end boost with a similar feel and glide to the 926. G1000 is another option, but it feels really big.
I don't want to be critical and I'm just a beginner . but
To me these specifications seem so close to me :
PTM926 1214 cm2 aspect ratio 7
PTM999 1125 cm2 aspect ratio 8,9
G1000 1355 cm? aspect ratio 7,4
And on the other hand :
Sabfoil 1100 2100 cm2 aspect ratio 5,7
Sabfoil 1250 2400 cm? aspect ratio 6,5
E1090 2200 cm2 aspect ratio 5,4
G1007 1700 cm2 aspect ratio 5,96
This looks another big (pump) league.
It's been years since I switched from a Neil Pryde Glide foil with an aluminum mast to a Mosses foil (now Sabfoil) with a carbon mast.
At that time, there wasn't as much of a wing selection as there is now, and the first 90cm windfoil fuselages (much thinner than current ones) only had M6 screws for both the wing and mast connections. Later, the first fuselages (much thicker and reinforced) appeared with M8 screws for the new wings of the time, such as the 790 (the Mosses version of the 76 SS), but for people with older fuselages, M6 bolts with conical washers were used.
At that time, apart from the 790, I also had an 1100 that I used for light wind days and I never had any problems. A fellow windfoiler who was crazy about jumping with the 790, modified the fuselage thread to fit M8 screws. He had no problem and it held up until the Krakens appeared, with M8 connections for both the mast and the wing.
Select to expand quoteYellowHelmet said..jdfoils said..
Try ptm999 for a huge low end boost with a similar feel and glide to the 926. G1000 is another option, but it feels really big.
I don't want to be critical and I'm just a beginner . but
To me these specifications seem so close to me :
PTM926 1214 cm2 aspect ratio 7
PTM999 1125 cm2 aspect ratio 8,9
G1000 1355 cm? aspect ratio 7,4
And on the other hand :
Sabfoil 1100 2100 cm2 aspect ratio 5,7
Sabfoil 1250 2400 cm? aspect ratio 6,5
E1090 2200 cm2 aspect ratio 5,4
G1007 1700 cm2 aspect ratio 5,96
This looks another big (pump) league.
In the real world, the ptm999 is a much more powerful foil than the ptm926. This is due to both the higher aspect ratio and the higher camber foil section. Basically this is a generation newer than the 926 -wider speed range, much better pumping, and much improved glide. The g1000 is a scaled up 926, same easy handling, same performance. Under my feet, there is a big difference in power required for takeoff for either of these vs the 926. Also on my light wind board ( ss freestyle 115) either of these foils will overpower the board at full speed unless I am using a s all stab (ps340) -wider boards will not have this problem.
Select to expand quotejdfoils said..YellowHelmet said..jdfoils said..
Try ptm999 for a huge low end boost with a similar feel and glide to the 926. G1000 is another option, but it feels really big.
I don't want to be critical and I'm just a beginner . but
To me these specifications seem so close to me :
PTM926 1214 cm2 aspect ratio 7
PTM999 1125 cm2 aspect ratio 8,9
G1000 1355 cm? aspect ratio 7,4
And on the other hand :
Sabfoil 1100 2100 cm2 aspect ratio 5,7
Sabfoil 1250 2400 cm? aspect ratio 6,5
E1090 2200 cm2 aspect ratio 5,4
G1007 1700 cm2 aspect ratio 5,96
This looks another big (pump) league.
In the real world, the ptm999 is a much more powerful foil than the ptm926. This is due to both the higher aspect ratio and the higher camber foil section. Basically this is a generation newer than the 926 -wider speed range, much better pumping, and much improved glide. The g1000 is a scaled up 926, same easy handling, same performance. Under my feet, there is a big difference in power required for takeoff for either of these vs the 926. Also on my light wind board ( ss freestyle 115) either of these foils will overpower the board at full speed unless I am using a s all stab (ps340) -wider boards will not have this problem.
Thanks for clarifying.
I knew it is quite complicated but it gets even more complicated.
I understand it has to do with the higher aspect ratio, but the higher camber foil section that I don't know.
Would the PTM999 (or G1000) outrun in the low wind end Sabfoil 1100 or 1250, E1090 or G1007
Does PTM999 (or G1000) have the same or similar pump properties as the latter.
I guess the width of the Wizard 125 would not have the overpower problem you had with the FS 115.
I still have the Wizard 125 and the Freestyle 115, and they are two boards with very different concepts.
The Wizard 125 is a little longer and wider, but the biggest difference is that it has a wide, square tail, which gives it much more leverage than the Freestyle, allowing me to comfortably carry large wings.
The 1250 is a wing that can be foiled in very light winds, but this low flight speed causes the nose to drop, and with the Wizard 125, apart from adding a 2? shim to the 483 stabilizer, I have to set both the base of the sail mast and the front footstraps as far back as possible.
The sab 1100 and the ss e1090 are a completely different breed of foils. Slow and Shovel shaped with a stall is around walking speed. The foil is easily overpowered due to lack of speed range. Most importantly, they feel very dead and unresponsive. This is the type of foil I avoid like the plague.
I am not familiar with the sab1250
I have a friend with a g1007 who says it is OK, but I have never seen him sail it...
One thing you need to understand with these very large foils is that they will lack in efficiency and glide due to the wing loading being so low. The things that are most important to me is a lively feel, efficiency, and excellent glide. That is why I will be out on a ptm899 in 14mph.
Select to expand quoteEugenius 2.0 said..
I still have the Wizard 125 and the Freestyle 115, and they are two boards with very different concepts.
The Wizard 125 is a little longer and wider, but the biggest difference is that it has a wide, square tail, which gives it much more leverage than the Freestyle, allowing me to comfortably carry large wings.
The 1250 is a wing that can be foiled in very light winds, but this low flight speed causes the nose to drop, and with the Wizard 125, apart from adding a 2? shim to the 483 stabilizer, I have to set both the base of the sail mast and the front footstraps as far back as possible.
When your write for the Wizard 125 "carry large wings" you mean foils, front foils, no inflatable wing.
And likely also bigger sails due to the width of the board.
I knew a bigger, wider board can hold a bigger sail, but I was not aware that the same goes for the foil.
The dropping of the nose of the 1250 on the Wizard 125 could this maybe be caused by the center of foil being too much backward and not being able to shift the foil forward because of the deep tuttle. I write this because I had exactly the same thing with the Infinity 99 cm, about equally big in surface 2300 cm2 - 2400 cm as the Sabfoil 1250. Even in position C the Infinity 99 cm, sailmast totally backward, sometimes in flight front foot slightly out of the footstrap some centimeters backward, and then OK.
On the other hand what jdfoils writes is very interesting as well : if with a much smaller foil PTM999 1125 cm2 because of the higher aspect a same or comparable result for low end wind as Sabfoil 1100 or 1250 could be achieved, PTM999 will be faster. Also higher camber foil section (what I don't fully understand, but it's maybe not necessary to understand everything as long as it works).
I agree with you that these giant wings are slow and not very maneuverable, but they save the day when the wind is very light and not enough for the fun wings.
The 1250 is slower and less maneuverable than the 1100, but it takes off in less wind.
This video is a few years old, but you can see how much fun you can have with these giant wings.
Select to expand quoteEugenius 2.0 said..
I agree with you that these giant wings are slow and not very maneuverable, but they save the day when the wind is very light and not enough for the fun wings.
The 1250 is slower and less maneuverable than the 1100, but it takes off in less wind.
This video is a few years old, but you can see how much fun you can have with these giant wings.
?si=a8UaUgfCcFarr7gK
Video looks real good.
I agree the main thing is to save the day.
When drilling the fuselage out from M6 to M8 is the hole drilled through the fuselage, so open on both sides ?
Select to expand quoteEugenius 2.0 said..
I agree with you that these giant wings are slow and not very maneuverable, but they save the day when the wind is very light and not enough for the fun wings.
The 1250 is slower and less maneuverable than the 1100, but it takes off in less wind.
This video is a few years old, but you can see how much fun you can have with these giant wings.
?si=a8UaUgfCcFarr7gK
I guess on the video with the 1100 foil you sail about 5 m.
Did you ever try bigger sails on 1100 or 1250 foil ?
What would your wind low end be on fairly flat salt sea water.
Select to expand quoteYellowHelmet said..Eugenius 2.0 said..
I agree with you that these giant wings are slow and not very maneuverable, but they save the day when the wind is very light and not enough for the fun wings.
The 1250 is slower and less maneuverable than the 1100, but it takes off in less wind.
This video is a few years old, but you can see how much fun you can have with these giant wings.
?si=a8UaUgfCcFarr7gK
Video looks real good.
I agree the main thing is to save the day.
When drilling the fuselage out from M6 to M8 is the hole drilled through the fuselage, so open on both sides ?
I've never done it, but I think the new thread only has the original depth, I don't think it's necessary to go through the fuselage.
Select to expand quoteYellowHelmet said..Eugenius 2.0 said..
I agree with you that these giant wings are slow and not very maneuverable, but they save the day when the wind is very light and not enough for the fun wings.
The 1250 is slower and less maneuverable than the 1100, but it takes off in less wind.
This video is a few years old, but you can see how much fun you can have with these giant wings.
?si=a8UaUgfCcFarr7gK
I guess on the video with the 1100 foil you sail about 5 m.
Did you ever try bigger sails on 1100 or 1250 foil ?
What would your wind low end be on fairly flat salt sea water.
I think there's some confusion; I'm not the guy in the video. I only used it as an example. If you look at the description, you'll see that the sail is a 4.2.
My largest sail is a Goya Fringe 4.7 (a very light, 3-batten sail with a lot of low end), and my comfortable low-end wind for foiling is 8-10 knots. I can take off and fly at 6-7 knots, but then it becomes a kind of torture. It's a type of dynamic foiling where most of the time, you can't stop pumping the foil and the sail. It's exhausting; I call it the flying gym.
Today I tried it with a Fringe 5.7 that a friend gave me, and although I don't like flying such big sails, in light winds, everything is less physical, and it's much easier to take off and fly very light winds
A few things:
-First I'd look for a larger foil specific sail which fits your existing mast and boom.
-Second look at the PTM999, that will want a bit more power to get going and be slightly more technical. But combined with the larger sail will extend your range downward quite a ways.
Third don't modify your fuselage, get the adapter comes from SAB.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
A few things:
-First I'd look for a larger foil specific sail which fits your existing mast and boom.
-Second look at the PTM999, that will want a bit more power to get going and be slightly more technical. But combined with the larger sail will extend your range downward quite a ways.
Third don't modify your fuselage, get the adapter comes from SAB.
Thanks for this advice.
- I was already thinking : if drilling to M8 in Phantasm fuselage, then my PMT926 will not fit anymore and I would need to drill the PTM926 in a conical way, what I don't want to do. So I will try/use the conical washers of Sabfoil to convert from M6 to M8 and use stainless screws not titanium, and if a screw bends, this is no tragedy, just replace it. Maybe the bending is a good precaution against breaking other more expesive gear. (makes me think I used a square nut for my fins with weak thread inside so when hitting an object the screw was pulled out of the nut and the fin was not broken).
- When you speak about a lager foil specific sail do you mean replacing the Gator 6 m 5 or the Gator 8 m.
I thought (but being just a beginner) the Gator 6 m 5 has sizes comparable to foil sails : narrow wishbone 188 cm (no cut out) and high mast + 456 luff. To be honnest right now I don't consider the 6 m 5 as big anymore as I got so used to it.
So I think you mean the Gator 8 m 197 cm wishbone + 20 - 30 cm cut out + 492 cm mast.
I think I could try a Duotone F-Pace 7 m 4 2023 or 2024, without cam but 2 sleeve inducers, 188 cm wishbone, 494 luff.
Would this be OK on Wizard 125.
- PTM999 looks challenging for the bigger sail. Are there even more challenging Slingshot foils for this bigger sail.
Guido
Not sure what you mean about the PTM999 being challenging with the bigger sail.
You'll likely find a board built for larger sails is going to offer more efficiency, especially upwind.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
Not sure what you mean about the PTM999 being challenging with the bigger sail.
You'll likely find a board built for larger sails is going to offer more efficiency, especially upwind.
I thought as the PTM999 needs more to get going (than the PTM926) I assumed it needs more wind, bigger sail, better and more pumping, or all of these 3.
As for bigger sails I can say the Slingshot 125 perfectly holds a 6 m 5 sail with short boom (Severne Gator 6 m 5).
It even holds a Severne Gator 8 m which is a very big sail, rather light, but with a lot of width : 197 cm boom +big cut away. Once on foil I even don't need the trapeze.
So a narrower foil specific sail would perform better,like a Duotone F-Pace.
I'm told that the size of a sail a board can hold is more related to the width of the board than its volume, what I can understand based on the leverage of the forces involved.
The PTM999 will likely need a better pumping technique but will maintain flight into lower wind because of its increased efficiency. So I wouldn't call it harder, compared to a light wind slalom foil it's still very large.
Boom length really doesn't matter that much. Overall sail area matters quite a bit. If the 8m works on your board I'd use that and learn how to pump.
If you are comfortable on a ptm926, you will have no problem with the ptm999. Regardless of pumping technique, the ptm999 will get on foil at lower speed and less power that the ptm926. Not sure why sail size would be an issue, it is a pretty user friendly foil. Excellent pumping technique will yield a massive low end advantage for the '999.
If you are looking for a more challenging foil I can make some suggestions, but none of them will get up on the blade as early as the '999
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
The PTM999 will likely need a better pumping technique but will maintain flight into lower wind because of its increased efficiency. So I wouldn't call it harder, compared to a light wind slalom foil it's still very large.
Boom length really doesn't matter that much. Overall sail area matters quite a bit. If the 8m works on your board I'd use that and learn how to pump.
Thanks.
Great that was the info I needed.
I'll get the PTM999 and experiment with all my sails up to 8 m and improve my pumping technique. If necessary I'll get a big foil specific sail like the Duotone F-type 7 m 6 which I can get second hand for about 400 ?, or bigger.
On the other side of the spectrum I'm right now experimenting with a 2 m 4.
Remarkable what a wide array of sails a single board and foil can hold.
And maybe, just maybe afterward I might even get a foil type 1100, 1250, E1090 if I can get it second hand or cheap just to know and understand what the difference is.
Foiling is quite complicated and technical, but very interesting.
My sole aim is to beat my friends who are all wingers, as well high end and low end, as I am the only windfoiler here around. Right now they get on foil with their mid sized narrow boards and wide high aspect foil real early, I think from 8 knots on, but I suspect some sooner, even with 5 m 5 wings.
Quite a challenge, wonder if who will win the wingers or the lonely windfoiler.
