Used to be a pretty dedicated/decent windsurfer (1990-2000'ish era) - then moved inland, had kids, and didn't sail for about 15 years. Kids are older, time is getting easier to come by, and I'm hoping to get back into sailing more. (A recent trip to the coast and a day of 18-20kt winds on my old 5.0 sail and 125 liter board really re-stoked the fires!! :-). I still live inland though, and the coast is far enough away to be a once-in-a-while type of trip. I gave up sailing inland back in the day - just got too addicted to planing (my largest board is the 125 liter) and too frustrated with slogging around and pumping big sails on little boards for brief seconds of planing.
I weigh 63kg, I have old sails (but based on the recent trip, they seem to work as good as ever! :-), ranging from 3.6 to 6.0 (North Sails, cambered). None of my boards are going to be good for foiling - 2 Bic's (125 and 102 liter) with old-style aluminum slot fin box, and a Seatrend ATV w/ a Tuttle, but it's only 71 liter :-) While older, the kids are in college, so budget is still a real thing...
My local lake will occasionally see winds in the 10-12kt range, but it's always a bit gusty and up and down. If I could find a suitable board and foil (suitable = w/o breaking the budget - probably under $2k), and presuming I could grow some foil-specific skills, how likely am I to be able to foil on an inland lake with my cambered sails? (I made an oath years back that I'd never sail anything larger than a 6.0 again, LoL, but I'm amenable to facing reality...). Or, and I likely just setting myself up for more chagrin, chasing the occasional gust for a few seconds of fleeting joy?
I would imagine that as soon as wind speeds reached a point where I could make planing jibes on a regular board, that I'd jump back on one of the regular boards. (This would be for trips to the coast - I never see consistent enough wind inland for my regular boards...)
So, straight talk... Is trying to foil in marginal conditions likely to bring me more satisfaction of more frustration? :-)
Foiling in 10 to 12 kts is definitely doable. There are 2 paths go can go down. Either freerace gear with largish sails (7 to 8m2) and smallish high aspect front wing (800 to 1000mm2) or freeride gear with smaller sails (6 to 7m2) and larger low aspect front wing (1500 to 2000mm2). The second path is your best bet.
Get a low aspect wing (1350-2000 cm2) and the max sail you need is a 7.0m2. Try to find a used 85cm wide board and not too long with foil approved box or deep tuttle. If going deep tuttle, then a foil with flange on mast would be the safest. Not saying that you will destroy the tuttle box with your weight, just a piece of mind. You should be able to get everything under 2k. No need for carbon mast. Decent board, right size foil and a 7.0 m2 sail would do the trick.
I'm about your weight, mentioned in the other post with 3.7,4.2 an 5.0 sails , dedicated custom foil board (Tillo) and custom 1500cm2 front wing foil, I cover 6.5 - 30 kn wind range. Once you get good, you will never want to switch to regular windsurfing gear as wind picks up, unless there are good size ridable waves or high speed slalom racing?For me, slalom got boring few years back, so if I can use my 80l tri fin wave board with sail<4.5 and good waves, that's the only combo that equal, maybe better than windsurf foiling. Bad news, it's still hard to find/pick good foil board/ foil , but there're some ok choices and better to get all new sails, I like Goya fringe, S2maui dragon.
The big difference is the glide of the foil. It's hard to describe to someone who's just accustomed to planing but the foil glides so much further in lulls that you'll be able to connect puffs in a way that you could never in a finned board. I live in an inland location so lakes are a necessary evil. We've gotten so many people hooked on foils because they make so many light wind frustrating days fun again. All you need is a hint of a white cap and you'll have a good day (maybe not at first but as your skills improve).
There is a bit of a learning curve but as everyone has suggested, big, slower foils make that easier and at your weight, you won't need too big of a front wing. I'm your size and foil an 1100 wing with a 5.4 (not my biggest sail) in 12-20. I don't think you need anything much over 1700-1800 cm because a real lifty wing ,which is great for big guys, will just mean that you'll need to be dumping the extra lift almost as soon as you get off the water.
For your first times out, do try to get a decent 15ish kind of day. With all the new sensations of flight, etc, it's easier starting with a smaller sail and not having to worry about power. If you need more tips for starting out, let us know.
As per the title 'Straight Talk
Yes you have problem, you don't have enough in your budget
You can get a board and foil for 2k, but it won't be much good
This is the gear the last budget starter purchased and I now clearing because he worked out it was making it all too hard
Cheers
Rod
Select to expand quotejims said..
Used to be a pretty dedicated/decent windsurfer (1990-2000'ish era) - then moved inland, had kids, and didn't sail for about 15 years. Kids are older, time is getting easier to come by, and I'm hoping to get back into sailing more. (A recent trip to the coast and a day of 18-20kt winds on my old 5.0 sail and 125 liter board really re-stoked the fires!! :-). I still live inland though, and the coast is far enough away to be a once-in-a-while type of trip. I gave up sailing inland back in the day - just got too addicted to planing (my largest board is the 125 liter) and too frustrated with slogging around and pumping big sails on little boards for brief seconds of planing.
I weigh 63kg, I have old sails (but based on the recent trip, they seem to work as good as ever! :-), ranging from 3.6 to 6.0 (North Sails, cambered). None of my boards are going to be good for foiling - 2 Bic's (125 and 102 liter) with old-style aluminum slot fin box, and a Seatrend ATV w/ a Tuttle, but it's only 71 liter :-) While older, the kids are in college, so budget is still a real thing...
My local lake will occasionally see winds in the 10-12kt range, but it's always a bit gusty and up and down. If I could find a suitable board and foil (suitable = w/o breaking the budget - probably under $2k), and presuming I could grow some foil-specific skills, how likely am I to be able to foil on an inland lake with my cambered sails? (I made an oath years back that I'd never sail anything larger than a 6.0 again, LoL, but I'm amenable to facing reality...). Or, and I likely just setting myself up for more chagrin, chasing the occasional gust for a few seconds of fleeting joy?
I would imagine that as soon as wind speeds reached a point where I could make planing jibes on a regular board, that I'd jump back on one of the regular boards. (This would be for trips to the coast - I never see consistent enough wind inland for my regular boards...)
So, straight talk... Is trying to foil in marginal conditions likely to bring me more satisfaction of more frustration? :-)
My experience at 70Kg is that foiling does not buy me anything in light air. I do not even have a really big windsurfing board like you do, my biggest is 109 liters, but with that and a 7.5 (that feels like a 6.5 of old) I am covered all the way down to 10-12 knots, or at least I am going strong when people are winging and foiling In the conditions mentioned above: "a hint of white caps".
Foils might have a marginal advantage below "a hint of white caps", but if I had a 130 liters board there would be no difference.
My impression is that for a 50 to 80 Kg sailor you foil because you want to do something new, not to gain range in sub 10 knots breezes. Unless you are no-bigger-than-5.0 sailor, or 100Kg plus foiling gains relatively little range wise. And of course a 5.0 would not be enough to foil in "no hint of white caps" conditions.
My suggestion? Buy a twp-three years old 7.3-7.8 sail. No or one or two cams at most. You will be surprised by how small it feels compared to old sails and you will be going strong in very light breezes.
86 kg, get up with NO whitecaps on a Aerotech Freespeed 8.0 sail and a AFS W95 with the F1080 cm2 wing, and a 135 L Goya Bolt. And once up and the gust passes I can pump that foil in the air for a 1/4 mile plus until the next gust catches me. Light wind 8-10 knots is the norm in the summer here and I make the most of it, but it takes a lot of practice, tuning, and skill and on really light days 8-9ish max I am only foiling downwind, upwind cruise on the water (not slogging like on a fin) back to the start.
I think the biggest benefit of foiling for weekend warriors is marginal conditions and gusty winds. check in your area what are other foilers using and try to get as much info as possible. I could tell you to get a used slingshot or starboard but that won't help me much if you cannot find them in your area.
you could buy a formula board or big slalom board and put a foil on it. That is what I did and got me hooked (formula board and low aspect foil, a combination not ideal but I had a lot of fun with it).
your sails should be okay for a while.
FWIW,
I'm 64kg.
My fin board I've got a billion hours on is a tabou rocket 125 with a 7.5 sail. For comparison, in same wind, my goto foil sail is a 4.5. On an I76 wing and 114 board. My biggest foil sail is a 5 3. I'm on a inland lake (dammed up river). Puffy variable winds. For example average wind speed today was 10 with gust to 17 knots. That basically means the 17 is short lived. I spend a lot of days "puff riding" because after learning, I'm a foil junkie now. I CAN say I'm out foiling, all be it intermittent slogging, in conditions i wouldn't think about finning. On the other end of the wind spectrum..., A couple weeks ago was out in 30knots gusts on a 3.7. A bit over powered in the peak gust, but having a blast the rest of the time. With a 5.3 sail, I cam comfortably slog around waiting on a puff. Any sail larger, and the board gets a bit sinky and harder to uphaul. If I were doing to go with a 7.0, I would go with a 130ish liter board.
We can agree a decent sized foil is worth around 1.7-3 meters down from windsurfing.
At 72 kg., 10-17 has me flying back and forth on 109 liters and 7.4 sail.....or 122 liters, 1150 foil, and 4.5 sail.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
We can agree a decent sized foil is worth around 1.7-3 meters down from windsurfing.
At 72 kg., 10-17 has me flying back and forth on 109 liters and 7.4 sail.....or 122 liters, 1150 foil, and 4.5 sail.
You lightweights are so lucky!, seriously.
Wanted to chime in and say a huge THANK YOU for all the great info, advice, and observations! I've been following along and listening. Sounds like the prevailing wisdom is that foiling can work in lighter wind, with some cautions about equipment choice, and possible diminishing returns for us lightweights. Please don't let this reply stop the discussion, as it's really helpful to hear others' perspectives. I'm tentatively going to be at the coast again in a week or two, and while I'm always hoping for strong winds, I'm kinda hoping that I can find a moderate wind day, and get some time in on a rented foil board to see how things go. If that goes reasonably well, I'll start looking around for a used board and foil. (Part of me really wants this to work, and part of me thinks that the last thing I need is more equipment, LoL. :-)
In my last slalom saisons 2019 and 2020 I used as my lightwind package PD AI SL 130, a Avanti M7 8,4 and a soft Chopper fin. I'm 76 kg, and I like pumping, so it was always easy to get the thing going.
In this 2021 saison I used as my lightwind foil package a PD AI 91 Hybrid, a 100 cm Moses/Sabfoil high-aspect foil (mast 107) and a PD Foil+ 8.0 qm sail.
If I look solely on my GPS data - I have gained with foiling 50% more distance on my lakes here. But what does this mean?
-days with 2-3 beaufort are now good days on the water - because foiling in <10 knots is no problem with such a gear
-if I'm up in the air - i can stay there: pumping through lulls, flying through jibes - these techniques help you to stay up in the air, when all windsurfers drift like ducks.
Would I recommend these foil material for beginners: no, of course not
-a wide foil board (80-85 cm) like Fanatic Stingray, PD foilride, severne alien (130-145 liter)
-Moses/Sabfoil 790 foil / 85 cm Mast or Starboard Supercruiser foil
-7.0 qm sail with 2 camber - of course a Severe Foilglide 7.0 would be near the optimum
Buy board and foil from the same company if you can, especially if it's a Tuttle box board.
IMO, tracks are preferable, unless you want race gear. (You can get boards with both).
Wide chord aluminium masts are cheap and stiffer than carbon masts, unless it's a really, really expensive carbon mast.
In case you run across a bargain Slingshot board with a "Tuttle" box, beware it's the shallow version - too small for most Tuttle foil masts on the market. (AFAIK, all new Slingshot boards have tracks now).
Select to expand quotejims said..
Sounds like the prevailing wisdom is that foiling can work in lighter wind, with some cautions about equipment choice, and possible diminishing returns for us lightweights.
I'd dissent strongly from the opinion that there are diminishing returns for us lightweights. I was trying to be conservative in my estimates because I'm a bit more experienced than some that may be responding and can get a way with a bit less wind than others might.
Echoing LeeD, even as lightweights, we are on sails 2-3 m2 less than what we'd be on finning. And, as lightweights, we get to fly earlier and with smaller foils and sails than the bigger guys. When white caps are appearing, I can rig down to a 5.4 (I likely would have been sailing either an 8.0 or 9.5 in those conditions with a fin). My threshold with a bigger sail is significantly lower than that. Locally, we joke that there are days (light and heavy alike) that we've had that were great that if we had just fins, we'd have never bothered even rigging or even stopping the car.
Agree with Paducah about the light and heavy days that I would pass on for finning, always needed 12 knots+ as my fin/plane minimum with a 9.0 sail, and in 15 knots and up with wind from the South the waves were 2+ and could only fin/plane downwind in the wave troughs. Foiling with waves are no problem, of course, and 8-10 on my 8.0, 10+ knots and I am on my 7.2 sail flying both ways. The big plus was during the Summer when the seabreeze was only 10 or so and pushed a 2-3' swell, no way to fin/plane on that, but perfect for foiling with a 95 cm mast F1080 wing and an 8.0 sail.
Select to expand quotePaducah said..jims said..
Sounds like the prevailing wisdom is that foiling can work in lighter wind, with some cautions about equipment choice, and possible diminishing returns for us lightweights.
Echoing LeeD, even as lightweights, we are on sails 2-3 m2 less than what we'd be on finning. And, as lightweights, we get to fly earlier and with smaller foils and sails than the bigger guys. When white caps are appearing, I can rig down to a 5.4 (I likely would have been sailing either an 8.0 or 9.5 in those conditions with a fin). My threshold with a bigger sail is significantly lower than that. Locally, we joke that there are days (light and heavy alike) that we've had that were great that if we had just fins, we'd have never bothered even rigging or even stopping the car.
.... I think you are really understating the capability of a fin for a lightweight. I am 70 Kg, and when white caps appear I do not need a 8.0-9.5 sails to keep going. A 7.3/7.5 with a small-medium sized boards, Futura 71 (109 liters) or Isonic 111, has been plenty for years. With a Moses 790 (!) maybe I could get away with a 6.0, but if white caps do not hint at been present I would need more sail size to get on the foil. Where I sail the only people that go out in less wind are not foils (that have seemingly all but disappeared) but wings. Two 55-60 Kg wingers, and a couple of guys with a 8.0 wing (!).
Maybe the foil works better if you have steady light winds, but in the conditions where I sail, either strong winds or very very weak and variable light winds, the foil gain is close to non existent with respect to a fin.
I was going to chime in with some information, but ZeroVix above said it, word for word, what I would say. If you follow his advice, you will be foiling in light winds.
Select to expand quoteduzzi
Maybe the foil works better if you have steady light winds, but in the conditions where I sail, either strong winds or very very weak and variable light winds, the foil gain is close to non existent with respect to a fin.
Disagree STRONGLY
Been foiling now for almost 3 years (SB race 75 kg) and imho by far the greatest benefit of the foil can be obtained in light gusty wind conditions. My TOW has easily been doubled.
My biggest sail now is 8 where as before I would be waiting for a gust with a 9,2 to get goiing.
I'm now literally flyiing turning circles around the slogging fin sailors while - admittedly - feeling a little embarrassed . I've had times where I was flyiing with a foilglide 5 where litteraly everybody else around me was slogging.
Even more, while they drift together to the lower shore by lack of consistent wind, I can use the whole surface of the spot thanks to the superb upwind pointing qualities of the foil.
^^ THIS ^^ is what I'm pinning my hopes on. (I do appreciate everyone's input, including/especially the counter-opinions, as this is a non-trivial decision for me...) I would envision going forward that if my sailing is limited to trips to the coast on my regular boards, I'm probably looking at around 10 days max on the water each year. (Just because I drive 5-6 hours to the coast doesn't mean it's gonna be blowing the whole time.) If I could make even the occasional trip to the local lake, I could double or triple the number of days on the water. I don't need to be riding bump-n-jump style to have a good time (though that's far and away my preference! :-), but enjoying planing (or potentially foiling) conditions is sort of my baseline for being worth the time commitment of loading everything up, getting to the water, rigging, sailing, unrigging, driving home, unloading, cleaning, putting it all away, etc :o). In my early days, I sailed anywhere, any time, and there was even some enjoyment in slogging around and just being out on the water. I've become more of a snob over the years (and now have a ski boat for those no-wind days :-), but I'd really like to spend more time sailing!
Agree that foiling has doubled my time on the water especially in the summer with light variable winds.
I am 94kg and my biggest sail is 7.5m which I can get going in about 10kts with an AFS 1080 W95 foil.
Also very much second the point about err pointing!
Riding foil allows you to make up and downwind angles not possible on a fin. This opens up some great 'touring' days on the water.
But, if investing in new kit maybe have a poke around the winging forum. It's a new not especially cheap world but the light wind possibilities especially for our lighter weight friends is amazing and the whole rig weighs nothing and fits in a backpack.
If your needing to buy a new board many good ones are available that would do Windfoil and Winging duty. Fanatic Stingray for example.
I do both depending on how I feel and what the water is like. But foiling has really ruined my cycling fitness because of the number of days I can get foiling!
Jims, for nearly all sailors who have tried foiling, the thresholds for getting up and going are far less wind and/or smaller sails. I'm 70kg, and I used to carry an 8m sail on a 120 L freeride board down to maybe 13 knots. If the wind dropped below that, I was off the plane.
Foiling, I'm on similar size board with an 1800cm wing and can easy get up in 10 knots with a 5.7 sail. My time on water has tripled in the iffy summer sea breezes we get here. Biggish low-medium aspect foils tend to be good to learn and progress on. When you see a lull, you can sometimes pump and glide the foil through it.
The other benefit with lightweights is you're not as likely to bend up a foil mast or break gear.
I'd also recommend getting gear that's well set up for foiling. The tuttle boxes don't allow a lot of placement of the foil, so if the gear isn't well balanced you can hit some problems. Research it well before you buy. Get back on this forum and ask when you're at that point of buying. Some of the gear that gets sold can be foils that don't quite match the board (ie the foil can't be moved in the tuttle box and has the balance point too far forward or back from the footstraps).
Welcome to the club. You won't look back.
I see different POV, and seems all are valid for the spots we sail.
In San Francisco Bay, Duzzi's comments are right on...for 70 kg rider.....as are everyone else's, for THEIR spots.
Personally, at 72 kg., I choose to windfoil when a 5.5 sail is too small for a 100 liter board.
Of the 40 odd days I foiled this year, I could have easily windsurfed with 100 liter board and 6.0- 7.4 sails, which I have littering the garage, on at least 35 of those.
Add 100+ days on sub 95 liter board, and sub 5.5, that makes a fullfilled year on the water.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
I see different POV, and seems all are valid for the spots we sail.
In San Francisco Bay, Duzzi's comments are right on...for 70 kg rider.....as are everyone else's, for THEIR spots.
Personally, at 72 kg., I choose to windfoil when a 5.5 sail is too small for a 100 liter board.
Of the 40 odd days I foiled this year, I could have easily windsurfed with 100 liter board and 6.0- 7.4 sails, which I have littering the garage, on at least 35 of those.
Add 100+ days on sub 95 liter board, and sub 5.5, that makes a fullfilled year on the water.
LoL, if I could get 100+ days/yr on my little board, I would not even be thinking about foiling! :-)
Select to expand quotejims said..
LoL, if I could get 100+ days/yr on my little board, I would not even be thinking about foiling! :-)
That's the mistake a lot of Perth sailors make. Was amazed at how many slappers there still were out on the river last sunday. But that small minority of "100+" sailors that did dare to think about foiling haven't looked back.
Select to expand quotejims said..LeeD said..
I see different POV, and seems all are valid for the spots we sail.
In San Francisco Bay, Duzzi's comments are right on...for 70 kg rider.....as are everyone else's, for THEIR spots.
Personally, at 72 kg., I choose to windfoil when a 5.5 sail is too small for a 100 liter board.
Of the 40 odd days I foiled this year, I could have easily windsurfed with 100 liter board and 6.0- 7.4 sails, which I have littering the garage, on at least 35 of those.
Add 100+ days on sub 95 liter board, and sub 5.5, that makes a fullfilled year on the water.
LoL, if I could get 100+ days/yr on my little board, I would not even be thinking about foiling! :-)
We are blessed with wind here in San Francisco Bay (although things are changing due to global warming), and April to September I almost never use above 6.5.
But in general there is no point in discussing personal experiences and ... disagreeing. (Although ... really? in 13 knots a 70 Kg sailor needs a 8.0? or a 9.2?)
My experience is what it is: "white caps barely showing"? Then 7.3-7.5 and 110 liters slalom board is plenty enough. If we go back to my best ever light wind set up, a 6.5 Kg Mike's Lab 130L (estimated) 76x260 Course Slalom board and a Hot Sails Maui GPS 8.0 ... well that really was going with no trouble well below the "white caps barely showing". I still miss it!
I have raced slalom (fin) for years, and i can tell you that i've never sailed so much throughout the whole year as i have since taking up foiling. We used to have to wait on the shore for for 13 knots to get going on big slalom gear, whereas now we can get going in 8-10 knots on race foil gear and basically sail anywhere we want to on the river because the upwind angles and vmg are so good with foils. I think if you get a decent sized free-ride foil and nice floaty board to help you get planing early, you will never look back in light gusty winds. Theres a reason so many are doing it and it aint a fashion statement. :)
As you can see above, there are many opinions on what size of gear to use. I personally know perhaps 20 people who have taken up foiling for various reasons. Some now only foil others still choose to "fin" when they can. However not one person regrets buying a foil.
It is a truly amazing experience.
I've just put an order in for a foiling board so it will journey back to being a beginner 
. Haven't seen anyone foiling when I can plane on a 120 with a 9. And they're just so slow when there is a few out. Happy to stay bouncing of the chop. Looking forward to foiling on the waves
Beginner/intermediate foiling is plain SLOW.
Advanced can almost stay with average rec speedsters.
At the very top., ONE guy can crack top 10 in speed.
