Is there an advantage moving from SB 115plus+ to a 105 plus+

I apologise if this subject has been aired before, I have tried the search function but could not find an answer.

I am a recreational foiler, an older sailor late 60's, 102kg+-, I sail with a SB 900 115plus+fuse 300 mod carbon mast on a Taboo air +145 board I consider my self an improver on the foil.
I was told by people I trust that I would never be able to use this foil setup with sails smaller than 8m, (its too powerful, not that anyone can explain what that means) and I would only be able sail up and down wind.
I sail with 8m,(my biggest) through to 7m, 6m, 5m, I am sailing in anything from 12kt to 30kt up down and across the wind.
I sail on north bank of the Thames estuary (not very nice chop) so it is seldom flat. Its a bit scary at times off wind ( fastest I have clocked is 23kt) I don't race but I do like to go fast, my old foil was SS 76 'shovel'.

My question is there is:- there any real advantage for me to use a shorter fuselage(105). Would I have more control when a) using smaller sails than 8m, or b) off wind or across, c) would I go noticeably faster? Or as I don't race just carry on using my current setup and adapt to the conditions

Good question - I am with you on this. Here are my thoughts.

I have been foiling for a number of years, and a solid intermediate. I'm also a total tech nerd so have attempted many a deep dive into trying to understand many of the commonly claimed (and seemingly) accepted positions in foiling. Two of the classic ones are: (1) the difference between upwind/downwind vs slalom foiling sails - and what makes a sail better for one than the other (I own both and damned if anyone has been able to explain this to me in any definitive way) . The second is the fuse length question.

i started on Axis foils - 90cm fuse and ART999 front wing (approx 1000cm2), but with a big rear wing (approx 360cm2). But I always believed that a longer fuse would provide a more stable ride. I tend to just do long straight ocean runs so the locked in feel appealed to me. I changed over to starboard - The original set 900/black 115 fuse/original 255. Can't say I noticed a massive difference, but maybe helped. The black fuse has the front wing in the same position as the 105 fuse.

i then went to the current IQ setup with 115+ fuse. Now according to common marketing jargon and commentary, the front wing being further forward was gonna create way more lift, power, etc. so I was all set to move footstraps/mast base forward to account for that. I didn't notice anything of note and everything has stayed where it was.

As for only being able to use the iq foil with 9m sails - that is nonsense and I think mainly the result of people buying into marketing spiel without having tried anything else. You sound a lot like me - I am a recreational sailor, I don't race, but I do like to go fast. I live in Auckland, NZ and there is a big contingent of high level IQ sailors at my local beach (including our likely Olympic reps), so I started off believing that was the only way to go. But now I am the same as you. I use between 6-8m foil race sails and love it.

In my experience the size of sail you can use is more related to the size of your board. I have a starboard freeride 150L (85cm) board. It feels great on 6-8m sails. I tried a 9 once and it just felt too big and heavy for the board. I recently got a tabou air ride+ 91 (230L) - I have dubbed the 'flying door' - and I could see how a 9m would work well. I always rig the smallest sail I can get away with. So long as there is enough wind to power it results in a more comfortable, confident and therefore faster ride. Batttling an overpowered sail sucks. As long as I can get going I little have no trouble keeping up with the IQ sailors. A smaller sail has less drag. The exception to that is hard upwind, where the bigger sail does give advantage. But outside of racing, most of us don't tend to sail those impossibly high angles because they aren't as much fun. It all depends on what you want.

turning to fuse length, again I think the difference is overstated. Maybe at the highest ends of performance it holds true, but for regular punters I am not convinced. If you just look at it from a physics perspective the fuse/foil mast is a fulcrum/lever. The front wing lifts up and the back wing pushes down, pivoting somewhere around the mast fuse. The shorter the fuse the tighter the arc. So all things being equal, a longer fuse will provide a more stable front/back ride. Althogh stability is a fickle thing, the longer fuse will be slower to respond to forward/back weight shifts, so kinda depends on what you like. The most helpful comparison is a car/bike with a short vs long wheelbase. Again all things being equal, the long wheelbase will be more stable in straight line speed.

The thinking apparently goes that when you are reaching (the most powerful angle) the lift of the IQ foil will be too much. But that depends on the conditions - if the wind is marginal, then reaching might be the only angle you can sail and the fuse will be fine. Similarly if there is plenty of wind and the foil is overpowered (on the most powerful angle of sail) you can reduce the power of the foil by first - reducing the shim angle on the rear wing, and second by using a smaller front wing - all without changing the fuselage.

The differences in windsurf fuselage lengths started out massive - going from 75cm for some brands, and 115/120 for others. It has settled to a pretty narrow band now. Looking at the starboard range, no-one seems to like the 95 fuselage and you never see it used anymore other than on entry level free-ride foils. The upwind/downwind race foils are using some version of the 115+ and the slalom guys are using the 105+/105Evo or 99Evo mk2 fuselages. So basically 100cm.

So yes, a slightly shorter fuse (100cm) might be better suited for reaching sailing if you are sailing at the highest level. But for regular punters I wouldn't rush out and buy one because you think you can't sail without it.

As for your speed, a number of regular contributors on here (Berowne, etc) have commented that 23/24 knots is a pretty common interim plateau for riders. I got stuck here for a while (on my IQ setup). Then suddenly I did 25, then 26, and now I am regularly getting average speeds of 24knots. And as everyone says - good IQ sailors are doing 30knots on this gear (though I am sure it's pretty freaky). In terms of pushing your speed up these are the things I have learned/make sense to me:
1. comfort and confidence are the most important - if you feel comfortable, you are more willing to push into the gusts, etc and therefore go faster.
2. use the smallest sails you can (while still properly powered up). I find this makes me more comfortable, with the effect stated above.
3. If you are reaching/going downwind for your speed runs, a narrower board is more comfortable. I am currently fixing my Freeride 150L board, so been using the Tabou 91 which has very outboard front straps. Downwind reach - I find myself in quite an awkward position sometimes, with my front leg way outboard and my rear leg toward the middle of the board. On the 85cm Freeride 150, it is easier to keep a more parallel stance, which is more comfortable and balanced.
4. Don't forget about your tail shim angle. This can make a huge difference. Releasing the tail wing angle ( negative shims) results in a noticeably slippier feel, but go too much and the nose of the board starts to 'hunt' down, resulting in a porpiosy ride (so less comfortable and less fast). When I first got the 115+ fuse with adjustable shims, I was using all of them (down to -1, etc). Talking to the IQ foil racers though, they generally never go beyond the +1, +0.5, 0 range (with the 255 -2 rear wing). I wish I had known that before I bought the -2 wing, as the original 255 can be set within the same range using the -1, -1.5. and -1 shims. In most conditions everyone seems to run either the +1 or +.5 shims (with the -2 rear wing). this seems to have held pretty true with the later Starboard iterations - Evo, SLR, etc.

If you were going to spend money anywhere on your foil set - I would suggest upgrading your mast. I started with the entry C300 Starboard Carbon Mast, and was eventually convinced to get the IQ mast. High modulus masts are crazy expensive, I know, but it does make a difference. Noticeably stiffer and more stable ride. I basically can't give the C300 mast away now. Before making this investment is a good time to consider what foil brand you are using, because once you have an expensive mast, the cost of switching to another brand becomes much bigger. Phantom/F4 seem to be the market leaders for speed, but in NZ where I am Starboard is the most common, and I buy a lot of parts second hand, so best to stick there.

I have recently upgraded to the Evo mk2 109 fuselage (new version of the 115+), 880 SLR front and 210 rear wings. I have also bought some smaller wings, and am going to get an Evo mk1 105 fuse second hand, so I will be able to update on my experience with that specific change in a bit.


Long story short - there is no need to run out and buy new gear. We all hope there will be a silver bullet that will take our foiling to the next level. But at our level - almost always - the gains come only with more experience/time on the water. Again, the one exception I would say to that is a nice stiff foil mast.

....I went off on a few tangents there, but once I got on the keyboard I just had to get it all down there. I don't profess to be an expert and other people may disagree, but this is my experience. Don't be too swayed by what other people (on different gear) are saying, you can only compare apples with apples.

Would love to hear others' thoughts.

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phoilingphil said..
I thought I had a thought but you covered it all really well. It does seem you didn't follow your own advice and own multiple fuses I get it I do too. I would say if you plan to do a lot of reaching when you sail , the 105 should be more comfortable to sail. I have the 115+ and original black 115 fuses

Oh yes - it is absolutely a case of none of us following our own advice - it's an expensive, addictive sport and we are all chasing that perfect, balanced, hard-charging feeling. So despite probably knowing our gear is not the issue, we all still take a chance on buying new bits.

i think this has a lot to do with not being able to try before we buy. At least in NZ there are no demo days, etc and most people are just on the IQ gear, so it's hard to try anything different out. If I had the chance to test a range of fuses beforehand, I'm pretty sure I could happily settle on just one to buy. But it's not possible. I'm also a sucker for any second hand gear 'deals' that I see pop up. I think oh well I can always sell it again if I don't like it. I've only got the 115+ fuse now. I'm only looking to get the 105Evo (mk1) fuse because it will allow me to connect my newer style front wI ha with older style rears and therefore get a few more setup options.

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sarfendfatboy said..
Thank you for all of your responses, in particular Shane NZ very comprehensive ( all be it with some contradictions)
I have purchased a discounted 725 foil (on its way) so that may help. I have my eyes on a 2nd hand 105+fuse with which I am very tempted, but I am concerned that am going to be standing on the beach holding my head in my hands crunching all variable's, fuse, foil, shim for no real advantage.
I am confused with the changing of the rear shim as it seems that IQ boys don't vary it much.(+ it is a real faff coming back to the beach and changing shims) As for the stiffer modulus mast, again I am not racing and as I have come from a SS foil which was so wobbly in the Thames chop ( very unsettling) my current one is a night and day difference.
.To sum up then, a 105 possibly give's a slightly less scary ride down/off wind due to the position of the foil being being not so far forward, The comment that has been mentioned a couple of times is being aiming to be comfortable, so I am thinking I should just press on and become adapted to my current set-up....... .
but to quote Shane 'Oh yes - it is absolutely a case of none of us following our own advice' so I may buy the 105, try it then flog it if it doesn't work for me.
Now, I have just got to get gybes right so I don't waste so much energy ......which a continuing saga.....

FYI-- the board is a Taboo Air Ride LTD 140 litre 81cm wide dedicated foil board (Double Tuttle) and I have -2 255 rear wing

Yeah on the IQFoil setup I use +1 on rear unless it gets above 12-14kts then switch to +0.5. Don't think I'd want a 0 with the 115+/900/9.0 unless it was really high wind, as it really starts dropping the nose in jibes. In fact, I did a lot of earlier riding with the 0 shim and I think it hampered my ability to jibe by a quite bit. I also stuck with the 9.0 in all conditions and it tested my nerves more than anything and I think probably hindered my progression.

If you use the 105+ and 725 it would probably be good to go at least +0.5. I've also ridden it in lighter stuff (12-16kts) with the 115+ fuse. It shouldn't be a problem in lighter stuff with that longer fuse. It's when you get in chop and it's windy with a bit of sail overpower that the longer fuse really starts to feel sketchy. 105+ with the smaller sails in chop feels soo much less on the edge.

Oh yeah and I almost forgot: Adding rake helped me a lot. If your nose is sitting higher than my stock iqfoil board, being narrower, you are probably less stressed out in chop than I was with the 9.0 and 95cm wide board. For me it made a huge difference.

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sarfendfatboy said..
On a personal note what do you weigh, and what wind speed do you hold on to your 9m

I was a little lighter before, but now around 94kg/208lbs or so. I've done 23kts with the 9.0 (with both 650 and 725 fronts). I think 22kts with the 900. My fastest was with a smaller sail and smaller wing (550/6.0/105+, almost hitting 24kts) and I think my issue not going faster was that I simply went too deep. If I had kept more reachy instead of off the wind I would've gone faster.

I live in Leigh on sea, so sail at Chalkwell a lot in S or SW or Thorpe Bay in SW or NE . I no longer sail at Shoeburyness as it is more often than not too shallow to foil for long . I only venture onto the Ray fin sailing when it's bonkers windy. If you are hoping to sail you when your over you will have to bring your gear as well as there is no rental.
I still don't understand or had it explained what difference that a stiffer mast would make to my performance. ( at my level )

I know investing in a stiffer but more expensive mast may seem like a waste of money, but I can say from experience it is one of the few noticeable differences. Next time you are carrying your board to the water, notice how much the foil flexes in your hand. Or just give it a wiggle when you are setting up. Now think about the same foil supporting your whole body weight while smashing along through sea swell at 20knots. All that movement results in instability. Like trying to balance on a wobble board. The stiffer mast reduces the wobble and increases stability. As you can tell from my post above, I have a healthy scepticism of most claimed oerformance gains from new parts. But this really is a big one.

on a different brand foil the entry level carbon mast might be better. But the original starboard one is pretty rubbish. I started on axis foils with an aluminium mast (a really good one) and my first starboard carbon mast was actually more flexy than that. For what it's worth.

Starting my 6th year of foiling.
Debuted with the SB race set (2018) , then IQ mast with 115+ and now on SLR slalom mk2.

I do not find the differences between the different masts this massive, but I'm only weighing 75-78 kg so
the forces exerted on the mast are much less.

Since the topic starter weighs 102 kg, it might be beneficial and much more cost-effective to acquire a 105+ fuselage instead of a more recent mast. The shorter fuselage will give less torsion on the mast negating the needs for a stiffer and more expensive new one.

Apparently , SB now has stiffer "jumbo" fuselages so these might do the trick.?

Hi Shane (and All),

I enjoyed reading your post and agree to your findings so here are my experiences:

I started 2021, NP 800 foil, with a FanaticFalcon136, then went on to Starboard iFoil100 with the alu mast, now FoilRace100 (extremely sensitive to damage). I have the 1000/800/650 foil set on 115+fuse, firstgen carbon mast and ifoil carbon mast. Stepped up to 575 evo and 420 SLR/210 evo2 rear. I'm not racing but like to go fast, early and so on. I like a challenge and a good, hard workout. I am not scared about crashes.

I hated not being able to get up while my mates did, got the Superflyer 1500 last year which was a massive change. Early flight, almost no sail necessary, but massive lift, maxing out @ 19kn. That speed was reached very easily and not enjoyable anymore. So the wind range is quite small. However, the low stall speed allowed high flying gybes (without freaking out) so I could improve my gybing. (So sometimes a different kit is better).

My handling of less and more wind has improved only very gradually over time. There was a recent jump however, which had to do with trim. I was able to change the mast to a more forward position, which allowed to sail faster. The confidence is there now to lean the rig to a front position to accelerate and charge better. It feels like the 23 kn is nothing special anymore.

At the same time, my pumping technique has improved so I have a fighting chance to keep up with the pros here (Bob is a real challenge, haha! ).

So for take off and speed, noticing something was wrong was not enough. I needed to get the feeling WHAT was wrong to improve the trim which took me a lot of time. That could not be done by simply buying new kit. Additionally, it required me to change all kinds of things instead of just enjoying a ride. I would recommend to a newcomer to go through the pain of changing angles, board trim, sails and sail trim etc. to get there earlier than I did.

Another way of improving is taking a video of yourself. I was frustrated about my gybing and a friend of mine told me I sheeted out to early. My first reaction was: What's the point to keep on the rig when there's no power in it anymore? I went to the videos on Instagram and YouTube and found that the pros really did it differently. I could SEE what I was doing and compare it to what they were doing differently. The little difference was to lean the rig leeward very early and my gybing went to another level almost immediately.

Still, there seems to be a speed limit set by the kit used. For me in the comfort zone it's 21kn for the 1000, 23kn for the 800, 25kn for the 650 front wing. Does that matter if you're not racing? Of course, haha!

Hope I could add a little value to the discussion.
Cheers,
Rainer

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WillyWind said..
Hi Rainer,

What fuse and stabilizer do you use with the 1500 superflyer? I also have the SB 1000/800/650 foils with the 115+ fuse and the iQfoil mast. I can gybe all wing no problem. In light winds in summer my 8.5 sometimes is not enough. Thinking about getting a superflyer but I wanted to know more about the wind needed to take off with the 1500 superflyer vs. the 1000.

Hi Willy,

I'm using the Superflyer 1500 with a 330 stab @ -2deg and the 109evo2 fuse, which should correspond to the 115+, mainly on a foil capable Fanatic Falcon 136ltr which is around 9kg. I weigh 73kg.

Takeoff is a tad earlier than the 1000 with a large sail 7.8-9.4 on a formula board iFoil100 and FoilRace100 (!). However, stall speed with the Falcon136 and a 6.2 wave sail is 8kn - measured. If you wanted to cruise, you could do that with an even smaller sail. Amazing, really. It feels like you go in no wind at walking speed.

I did use the Superflyer with the large board, but there is almost no gain in takeoff speed. That's why I use the Superflyer on the lighter Falcon, which gets me going earlier AND easier. On the upper end, I can go 23kn on the 1000 with the race board, but only 18kn on the Superflyer. The Superflyer max speed is reached almost immediately, so the wind range is minimal. I start fighting to keep the board nose down whenever the wind gets close to 15kn, which is not nice. Then I have to swap the complete combo (board, foil, rig). Frustrating!

I still have to try the regular 255-2deg or the first gen 255 stabiliser, which might reduce the massive lift of this combo. But in reality, I would rather take the race foils than try and get this beast under control.

I was annoyed about the others going earlier than I and bought the biggest Starboard foil I could get. That was when I had the iFoil100, which has 13.5kg. Well, the SF does that trick, but it's upper limit is nothing for people who want to go fast. I would opt for the (old) 1300 SF today. The new Starboard wings could provide some more options, though.

For me the 115fuse with 800 or 900 fw is great in the lighter winds with 7m sails and above and the 105 fuse with 725fw or smaller with 7m sails and below. I really enjoy trying to find the right balance as it's such a personal thing, size weight where you sail etc but more over bloody good fun??????