How to deal with an aggressive kite foiler?

There is a kite foiler that I keep seeing on the bay who is getting increasingly aggressive in terms of how close they jib around me. They are on an Ozone kite, the kind with a dozen air chambers running front to back and a race board and foil, so pretty fast. My concern is if he gets a little too close and we collide. Now I carry a diving knife so if I get tangled in his lines I can always cut my way out , but want to avoid that if possible. Now I did stop by where he launches to just say hi the first time, but he did not seem interested in talking to me. Any advice is appreciated.

Go to him - if possible take a surf buddie with you - and talk with him, without raising your voice. Tell him:
-that you feel uncomfortable on the water due to him, because ...
-tell him: please to give me more space - I'm frightened to get injured

If he is not reacting in normal educated way - than tell him, that in case of a crash due to his dangerous behaviour on the water you will report him (due to your talk today) to the police and will look for financial compensation of any damage or medical condition.

One time during an ABK camp in Hatteras, a similar annoying kiter absolutely had to kite very close to us standing in the water getting instruction, at times even spraying us. One time when he was coming at us, I let go of my boom so the rig dropped, forcing him to evade (I did it when he had plenty of time to react). He acted extremely surprised. Apparently, it had never occurred to him that windsurfers might drop a sail. After this, he stayed away.I have seen similar things with windsurfers, who think they are in total control so it's perfectly fine if they sail by you close enough to spray you. Sometimes, they give you more space if they do not know you, but get closer when they have seen you sail a bunch of times. It also sounds like he is into racing, which means he is used to being very close to others on the water.

Most of the time, asking them politely to stay more than a mast length away works. But of course, there are some exceptions. It's worth a try. It he reacts badly and still gets close, you can still illustrate that it may be in his interest, too. Foiling crashes where the foil comes out of the water and you go off the rear end while the board does a wheelie should be dramatic enough for even someone with half a brain to stay away from.

I get the feeling he is trying to intimidate me, or make me nervous so I crash, by jibing so close around me. I could try heading him off when he approaches me, so he has to jib in front of me. But slowing down so I am on the water and then dropping my sail is a strategy.

But will try talking to him first.

Select to expand quote

Paducah said..

boardsurfr said..
It also sounds like he is into racing, which means he is used to being very close to others on the water.

This. People who race a lot have an almost distorted distance of what close and far is. I have a family member who spent a lifetime racing Lasers (quite competent) but put him in a power boat and he needs reminding that power boats have a whole different definition of close and far.

I'd strike up a conversation with him and just say hello. I'm not sure how comfortable you are around kites in general as I'm not sure a knife would be what you'd need. The bigger risk is if he dropped the kite on you (the kite or lines hitting you) rather than you getting trapped in the lines like a dolphin in a tuna net.

It may also be situational awareness. Some windsurfers are as unknowing about the space a kite needs as they are of us. For example, they (at least my locals) tend to depower by going downwind while we depower by going upwind. So that chat may let you know what he's doing. I learned this whle foiling with a good friend who was kitefoiling and we were both wound up.

Again, after having watched a lot of kite racing videos, they are very comfortable being very close to each other and given his gear, he's not a newbie. Have that chat as you may well make a new foiling friend.

Thanks, yeah I did try to talk to him, but he turned his back on me and took his board/foil into the water to "sand a scratch" while keeping his back to me the whole time, so I finally walked away. If you read body language it was a subtle Fyou.

yeah, the other thing he has done is jump into the air and then land 10 feet away from me, I do not think that has anything to do with him being a racer. See what happens next time, maybe he will give up and leave me alone. When I first started surfing at a "reef break", where everyone would line up for the waves, local guys tried running me off the waves a few times, but I managed to avoid them and then they gave up, plus I was technically a local since I lived across the street from the break, just not someone who grew up there. But Southern California surfing spots can get rather violent on occasion.

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..

Sandman1221 said..
yeah, the other thing he has done is jump into the air and then land 10 feet away from me, I do not think that has anything to do with him being a racer. See what happens next time, maybe he will give up and leave me alone. When I first started surfing at a "reef break", where everyone would line up for the waves, local guys tried running me off the waves a few times, but I managed to avoid them and then they gave up, plus I was technically a local since I lived across the street from the break, just not someone who grew up there. But Southern California surfing spots can get rather violent on occasion.

that's not PV cove is it?

No, it was South end of Del Mar by the cliffs, technically not a reef break but a rock ledge that stuck out into the water and did the same thing, broke the waves at the same spot, perfect place to learn!

Select to expand quote

Sandman1221 said..
yeah, the other thing he has done is jump into the air and then land 10 feet away from me, I do not think that has anything to do with him being a racer. See what happens next time, maybe he will give up and leave me alone. When I first started surfing at a "reef break", where everyone would line up for the waves, local guys tried running me off the waves a few times, but I managed to avoid them and then they gave up, plus I was technically a local since I lived across the street from the break, just not someone who grew up there. But Southern California surfing spots can get rather violent on occasion.

Sandman, where are you sailing? I have the impression for some reason you're on the Florida Gulf Coast. If so, perhaps I can help - sometimes these idiots respond better to graybeards, especially largish ones...

If all else fails, which it usually doesn't, I just try to look incompetent (not all that much of a stretch) and sort of accidentally luff the guy up hard.

Select to expand quote

Sandman1221 said..

Thanks, yeah I did try to talk to him, but he turned his back on me and took his board/foil into the water to "sand a scratch" while keeping his back to me the whole time, so I finally walked away. If you read body language it was a subtle Fyou.

Props for taking the high road. I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. Where I sail, we have a few good kite foilers and they are as nice as can be and very welcoming. Sorry that your guy doesn't share the same positive vibes.

Select to expand quote

Sambo # said..
I'd walk up to him again and just quickly tell him that your worried about your safety when he jibes so close to you and "can you just keep your distance a bit more". Be polite and keep the request short and simple. Tell him even if he ignores you, but make sure he hears you. If this doesn't work the guy's a ##ck wit and call the police. Don't say anything or act in a way that might aggravate him. Now you've politely asked him twice and been ignored. The police will sort it out quick smart. Actually he already sounds like a ##ck wit.

What he says.

At our local sailing spot, we have a couple of misbehaving windsurfers. One of them will probably yell at you when you try to tell him to keep distance, or respect right of way rules, and come up with 100 reasons why you are wrong. But he nevertheless seems to keep his distance a bit more. The other one, however, is a completely lost cause.

We also have a kiter who is strongly disliked by many local windsurfers. One reason is that while most kiters just use the launch, but then disappear to kite far away, he often kites in the same region as the windsurfers (who tend to go back and force from the launch in a small region). One time when he jumped close to the launch, he almost landed on my wife. It was clear that he had no control in the air.

We ended up talking about this later in the parking lot. He apologized and explained that he was on a new kite that had a lot more air time than his old kites. He also explained why he often jumps relatively close to the launch (according to what he said, jumps are best done when accelerating). I ended up with a better understanding of what was going on, rather than just being mad at him.

My general experience with this kiter is that when someone talks to him, he starts out defensive and aggressive. That's part personality, and part the reaction to multiple windsurfers telling him to get lost, claiming that he cannot kite there (he can - only kite launching from the beach is restricted during lifeguard hours). But once you get past the initial reaction, he's a reasonably rational person, not a jerk. Compare to the few real jerks we do have on our beach, his reaction of turning his back to you is not bad - it's more a "I don't really want to talk right now" than an "f you". Or it could even have been something as simple as that you approached him from upwind, and that what he considers a safe distance differs from what you think. Both my wife and I have to play this game all the time on the beach with people who think that COVID transmission does not happen outside, or who think 3 ft is plenty of space.

Post some photos of this numpty!

Select to expand quote

WhiteofHeart said..

Sandman1221 said..
Thanks Dcharlton and t36, sounds like a plan, will see if the behavior continues. I think it is due to a combination of not liking a windfoiler in the same area, turf issue, and because we all know windfoiling takes more strength and skill than kitefoiling, so maybe some jealously. He has come to within less than 10', so very close considering we are moving in opposite directions.

10' is really really close and unacceptable.

As both a windfoiler and kiter I have to say a lot of windsurfers experience kiters as being "too close" earlier than strictly necessary, you can easily cross beneath a kite's lines without any danger, especially if going in opposite directions. However, 10' is taking that to the next (and unacceptable) level! My experience is something about 30' (so at least 3/4 of the distance between the kiter and the kite) being quite safe with an experienced kiter and especially a foiler. This difference in "percieved safezone" should ofcourse be avoided alltogether with ample distance, as "safe" and feeling as such are not the same thing, and its the latter which matters most. This difference in percieved safety is in my experience often the cause for disputes and can most often be resolved by having a polite conversation.

I'd go to him and talk about it, hopefully he will understand and keep more distance, if he doesnt maybe go to another kiter on the beach and ask him/her to explain it with you. My experience is only the small 5% of kiters have deviant opinions (aka are real jerks) about sharing the water with their fellow watermen/women (and other things like safe jumping distance), all the other kiters will gladly help you out to keep the situation safe & feeling as such! The dangerous kiter might more readily listen to a fellow kiter because of the "percieved safezone" and possible disputes in the past (agressive attitudes leading to the kiter no longer listening to windsurfers and their "misjudged" ideas on what is safe and what isnt, I've seen that happen a lot up until the kiter in question being hit in the face without a word being spoken).

To be honest, especially if he is an experienced racer (the Ozone racing kites are the front of the pack), he should know social norms on the water and keep more distance regardless.

EDIT: In case my writing was a little unclear, what FEELS safe for both people should be the distance we keep, and its often that difference in perception which causes trouble.

thanks WofH, have not seen him the last week, he is usually there on the light wind days, but not the stronger wind days. When he jumped and landed 10' from me I was on the water slogging, so not able to move out of the way. Will see if he continues or not, and go from there.

spud cannon.