Very cool! Wanted to ask: Did you always go straight to the full move/flip right away or have you also tried foiling backwinded in more of a straight line as well?I've been trying helis but not yet on the foil.
Select to expand quoteutcminusfour said..
www.instagram.com/p/CsTwte0vAA8/
Balz would be impressed!
Select to expand quoteaeroegnr said..
Very cool! Wanted to ask: Did you always go straight to the full move/flip right away or have you also tried foiling backwinded in more of a straight line as well?I've been trying helis but not yet on the foil.
I am not quite there yet on the foil, I have better success sailing backwinded on foil by turning into a DW 360 and or when wave riding because the speed stays up. On the skateboard I can sail away from tacks backwinded and either sail flip or finish as a UW 360. The skateboard helped me realize that the heli, stalled heli and the UW 360 are the same move with just a slight tweak. In fact when you're reaching for a UW 360 and get overpowered when backwinded you just flip sail to escape and say you meant to do a heli. In the displacement UW 360 I just posted that's exactly what was going on, I was getting pushed over so I flipped the sail but kept turning. I needed to weight the back foot more to get it to pivot faster.
Keep trying Aero!
Make the heli your default tack when slogging. Then gradually work up to starting the move foiling but touching down before head to wind. Then reach for getting past the wind and so on.
The move is perfect for foiling!
In the water, the heli (and the old school duck tack) suit the volume distribution of compact foil boards better than the fast tack. In the air it keeps your weight over the foil so is better suited to foiling than going around the front.
The displacement versions of all these moves are the path to the foiling versions! Let's see some footage of everyone's light air practice!
Select to expand quotethedoor said..
Did you focus your tack training in lighter air or big foil/small sail?
I started in light air only. Then worked up to doing displacement tacks in more and more wind. Then foiling into the start, touching down before head to wind and sail flipping. Then I reached to turn past the wind before touching down and so on. It has been a safe injury free process so far and now I can always tack if I want/need to. When it's sporty in the ocean and I got make it to keep my ground I choose a touch down version when it's more mellow I push and reach for full foiling.
As far as gear choice goes I am sure Balz has it dialed, because of his skills he can handle a lot of sail casually and then pairs it with a pretty slippery wing that has a relatively slow stall speed.
Once I started to reach for the foiling version I really favored my biggest wing and the smallest sail I could get flying with. It was just so much less intimidating that way and was a safer, slower way to explore the "unknown"! I reasoned the extra low stall speed of my 1100 could help me make the close ones the way it helped me with my gybes.
In this footage I was on the 999 with a 5.2. This was more sail than I wanted with the 12 to 20 knots of breeze but the shorebreak ate my 4.8 the same morning. I had the feeling that especially because of the extra sail power I should have been my 799 for more speed and glide. It's an interesting trade off, one that I look forward to exploring further.
Select to expand quoteutcminusfour said..aeroegnr said..
Very cool! Wanted to ask: Did you always go straight to the full move/flip right away or have you also tried foiling backwinded in more of a straight line as well?I've been trying helis but not yet on the foil.
I am not quite there yet on the foil, I have better success sailing backwinded on foil by turning into a DW 360 and or when wave riding because the speed stays up. On the skateboard I can sail away from tacks backwinded and either sail flip or finish as a UW 360. The skateboard helped me realize that the heli, stalled heli and the UW 360 are the same move with just a slight tweak. In fact when you're reaching for a UW 360 and get overpowered when backwinded you just flip sail to escape and say you meant to do a heli. In the displacement UW 360 I just posted that's exactly what was going on, I was getting pushed over so I flipped the sail but kept turning. I needed to weight the back foot more to get it to pivot faster.
Keep trying Aero!
Make the heli your default tack when slogging. Then gradually work up to starting the move foiling but touching down before head to wind. Then reach for getting past the wind and so on.
The move is perfect for foiling!
In the water, the heli (and the old school duck tack) suit the volume distribution of compact foil boards better than the fast tack. In the air it keeps your weight over the foil so is better suited to foiling than going around the front.
The displacement versions of all these moves are the path to the foiling versions! Let's see some footage of everyone's light air practice!
Thank you! I'll do more helis when slogging. May actually go out with a biggish board in the low tide and small sail and just try things out...Seems like a lot still that I could practice before trying it with the foil. My helis are unreliable on the foilx but reliable on the bigger boards, so I'm thinking of trying them on my big Kode (and a few other things like switch stance). Not going to be a lot of wind today so it'll be perfect for that kind of practice.
Select to expand quoteutcminusfour said..aeroegnr said..
Very cool! Wanted to ask: Did you always go straight to the full move/flip right away or have you also tried foiling backwinded in more of a straight line as well?I've been trying helis but not yet on the foil.
I am not quite there yet on the foil, I have better success sailing backwinded on foil by turning into a DW 360 and or when wave riding because the speed stays up. On the skateboard I can sail away from tacks backwinded and either sail flip or finish as a UW 360. The skateboard helped me realize that the heli, stalled heli and the UW 360 are the same move with just a slight tweak. In fact when you're reaching for a UW 360 and get overpowered when backwinded you just flip sail to escape and say you meant to do a heli. In the displacement UW 360 I just posted that's exactly what was going on, I was getting pushed over so I flipped the sail but kept turning. I needed to weight the back foot more to get it to pivot faster.
Keep trying Aero!
Make the heli your default tack when slogging. Then gradually work up to starting the move foiling but touching down before head to wind. Then reach for getting past the wind and so on.
The move is perfect for foiling!
In the water, the heli (and the old school duck tack) suit the volume distribution of compact foil boards better than the fast tack. In the air it keeps your weight over the foil so is better suited to foiling than going around the front.
The displacement versions of all these moves are the path to the foiling versions! Let's see some footage of everyone's light air practice!
Congrats! So nice move.
I do eli tacks on the water, or at least I was use to when windsurfing ...think I need to try on the foil...till now I had other priorities :-)
I wonder if you need to negotiate the apparent wind a little more on the foil or is the same feeling as on the water?
Thanks Bud!
For sure the details of the apparent wind are different between modes (displacement and foiling) but the steps and body positions are very similar. In other words if you can do it on a longboard in light wind you are one step closer to the foiling move. The same principles and techniques apply; they just need to be refined to pull it off going faster and foiling. That's what makes this accessible, you can start small and take baby steps.
Any attempts yet at duck tacks? I was trying to improve my ducks mixed with heli tacks while slogging around yesterday. I need more practice on ducking, especially once powered up, but am further along with that than helitacks. Got a few successful helitacks but no where near as consistent as I would like. Was going too powerful on the backwinded portion during gusts and got slapped in a bunch, had to uphaul a lot. Should've used smaller than my 6.3 freek honestly.
The slogging version has that backwinded portion like a heli, but it looks like Balz is actually moving fast enough that he doesn't have a backwinded portion like you would on a fin (even planing)?!?
Also second video has him going switch beforehand, but Balz does foot switch after foiling through. Seems like a lot of variation in technique.
First video is aspirational, second is more of what I need as just giving it a shot.
Hey Aero,
Andy pushed me towards the old school duck (the way Balz doe's it) right away. I can do it on a simulator on land. I have them sorted in breeze on my small board in displacement mode. I have not worked up the balz to try one at speed and on foil. I think I want to have a face mask on my helmet when I do 
! The other move Andy insisted I start doing was the UW 360. They all have a lot of overlap.
The new school duck (second video) "looks" less intimidating to me. However, I am struggling to get the duck accomplished on the water with my small board even in light air. I have it down on land, but it looks like I need to get out on my super wide training board to advance the progress. I am ready to start trying switching stance on foil. Ducking going straight looks fun! You could just as easily finish it as a gybe or even DW 360 just by carving down wind. It's also the first step in a lot of the aerial freestyle moves. Those seem beyond my risk threshold now but who knows maybe someday. What's funny, twice now I have mistakenly pushed on the backed sail while falling backwards in a failed heli and got launched into low orbit in what seems to be the second step of a Kono
! There is soo much pop in the backwinded position. It's no wonder it's the start of so many aerials!
I saw those tuts by NP and had to chuckle knowing that they are possible on foil. But hey I am getting good use from my touch down heli's and I appreciate anybody that puts out tutorials.
Nice video this gives me a better understanding on how to do this maneuver.The Balz videos are great but he's so good and makes it look so easy you forget that it's harder than it looks.
Select to expand quoteutcminusfour said..
Hey Aero,
Andy pushed me towards the old school duck (the way Balz doe's it) right away. I can do it on a simulator on land. I have them sorted in breeze on my small board in displacement mode. I have not worked up the balz to try one at speed and on foil. I think I want to have a face mask on my helmet when I do ! The other move Andy insisted I start doing was the UW 360. They all have a lot of overlap.
The new school duck (second video) "looks" less intimidating to me. However, I am struggling to get the duck accomplished on the water with my small board even in light air. I have it down on land, but it looks like I need to get out on my super wide training board to advance the progress. I am ready to start trying switching stance on foil. Ducking going straight looks fun! You could just as easily finish it as a gybe or even DW 360 just by carving down wind. It's also the first step in a lot of the aerial freestyle moves. Those seem beyond my risk threshold now but who knows maybe someday. What's funny, twice now I have mistakenly pushed on the backed sail while falling backwards in a failed heli and got launched into low orbit in what seems to be the second step of a Kono! There is soo much pop in the backwinded position. It's no wonder it's the start of so many aerials!
I saw those tuts by NP and had to chuckle knowing that they are possible on foil. But hey I am getting good use from my touch down heli's and I appreciate anybody that puts out tutorials.
Ahh so that's what I've been practicing, the old school duck. Andy got me started down that path too, just been a while. Figured out what was making them inconsistent. I just was't making the sail neutral before slicing it into the wind
, fixed that and got them pretty consistent today. Big Kode, small fin, 4.4 freek, not planing conditions or even close.
Even tried duck then switch stance, and switch stance then duck. Duck then switch is a lot easier. But, when ducking from switch, I don't know what I need to change to duck the sail to backwinded. I was ducking it and still coming out switch and with the sail still pulling, a little more downwind. Think I need to look at Tricktionary some more...
Was getting OK on that board (still not as good as on my big long and wide windsup) on one side with heli tacks. Not quite enough that I think I'd want to try them on foil yet but who knows. I did a few 360s too then right back into a heli tack on the same side.
I know what you mean about that force. I'll definitely have helmet and vest when trying anything on the foil. I think just a normal duck will work. Seems like a little downwind angle to kill some apparent wind will make it easier. Tide and direction just hasn't quite lined up for me to do it after work lately...hopefully soon.
BTW here is another video I think is helpful. I reviewed Tricktionary and it looks like they don't have a detailed breakdown of a switch to duck/backwind like they do for other maneuvers. They spent more time on the step into backwind, even though that's the easier way. They do cover more of the power freestyle basics of ducking while planing with beach work but not really subplaning like the videos.
Anyway this shows the part where I struggle, where starting around 1:30 he talks about "guiding" the mast into the apparent wind vs. throwing it and ending up with the smack down or the mast hitting the water:
This was yesterday. A day with zero chance for windfoiling. In one hour I easily made over 150 transitions! In light air like this you roll pretty slow but just keep gliding. You can coast through most moves and it all happens slower than the minimum foiling speed so you can learn from it. Because you are rolling at speeds similar to the wind, the apparent wind angles are similar to what happens on foil. During this ride I noticed that I was grabbing the mast when I sail flipped in one direction. The other direction I grabbed boom to boom and was able to switch my feet during the sail flip. Once I spotted the weakness I drilled down on it for the rest of the session. This is so much fun and would be all I need except there are no waves to ride!
www.instagram.com/reel/Csi69vCLglw/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Select to expand quoteutcminusfour said..
This was yesterday. A day with zero chance for windfoiling. In one hour I easily made over 150 transitions! In light air like this you roll pretty slow but just keep gliding. You can coast through most moves and it all happens slower than the minimum foiling speed so you can learn from it. Because you are rolling at speeds similar to the wind, the apparent wind angles are similar to what happens on foil. During this ride I noticed that I was grabbing the mast when I sail flipped in one direction. The other direction I grabbed boom to boom and was able to switch my feet during the sail flip. Once I spotted the weakness I drilled down on it for the rest of the session. This is so much fun and would be all I need except there are no waves to ride!
www.instagram.com/reel/Csi69vCLglw/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
So cool, I need to get on mine, yet to use it
Thanks for this video! I have been ever since trying to Heli tack on foil but yet never reached to turn past the wind. I could never figure out if I should stay with the front foot in the straps or not. If I am in, it seems like my stance is way too much back, but now I think it is just a matter of adjusting sail and body ... Anyway, thanks for the video again and for this extra motivation. I am back in to work at it
Select to expand quoteFreetz said..
Thanks for this video! I have been ever since trying to Heli tack on foil but yet never reached to turn past the wind. I could never figure out if I should stay with the front foot in the straps or not. If I am in, it seems like my stance is way too much back, but now I think it is just a matter of adjusting sail and body ... Anyway, thanks for the video again and for this extra motivation. I am back in to work at it
Cheers Freetz!
Once you make it past head to wind there is a big force that wants to roll the board over to leeward. It's the sail load filling in on the new tack but your body is on the wrong side of the board and has very little leverage to counter it.
Balz suggests staying in the front foot strap and when you switch your feet do it strap to strap. If you watch his tutorial closely you can see the heel of his front foot comes off the deck after head to wind but before the sail flip. He is using the front strap to control the leeward rolling force. If you are riding with straps follow his lead.
I ride strapless and had to find a way to adapt. I move my back foot over to the opposite rail to counter that rolling force. I often over compensate and this slows or stops the turn, I am slowly learning to use this force to keep the turn cranking.
Good luck with your tacking, have fun!
Select to expand quoteutcminusfour said..Freetz said..
Thanks for this video! I have been ever since trying to Heli tack on foil but yet never reached to turn past the wind. I could never figure out if I should stay with the front foot in the straps or not. If I am in, it seems like my stance is way too much back, but now I think it is just a matter of adjusting sail and body ... Anyway, thanks for the video again and for this extra motivation. I am back in to work at it
Cheers Freetz!
Once you make it past head to wind there is a big force that wants to roll the board over to leeward. It's the sail load filling in on the new tack but your body is on the wrong side of the board and has very little leverage to counter it.
Balz suggests staying in the front foot strap and when you switch your feet do it strap to strap. If you watch his tutorial closely you can see the heel of his front foot comes off the deck after head to wind but before the sail flip. He is using the front strap to control the leeward rolling force. If you are riding with straps follow his lead.
I ride strapless and had to find a way to adapt. I move my back foot over to the opposite rail to counter that rolling force. I often over compensate and this slows or stops the turn, I am slowly learning to use this force to keep the turn cranking.
Good luck with your tacking, have fun!
Good tip about the foot strap leverage, I am gonna manifest that
Select to expand quoteutcminusfour said..Freetz said..
Thanks for this video! I have been ever since trying to Heli tack on foil but yet never reached to turn past the wind. I could never figure out if I should stay with the front foot in the straps or not. If I am in, it seems like my stance is way too much back, but now I think it is just a matter of adjusting sail and body ... Anyway, thanks for the video again and for this extra motivation. I am back in to work at it
Cheers Freetz!
Once you make it past head to wind there is a big force that wants to roll the board over to leeward. It's the sail load filling in on the new tack but your body is on the wrong side of the board and has very little leverage to counter it.
Balz suggests staying in the front foot strap and when you switch your feet do it strap to strap. If you watch his tutorial closely you can see the heel of his front foot comes off the deck after head to wind but before the sail flip. He is using the front strap to control the leeward rolling force. If you are riding with straps follow his lead.
I ride strapless and had to find a way to adapt. I move my back foot over to the opposite rail to counter that rolling force. I often over compensate and this slows or stops the turn, I am slowly learning to use this force to keep the turn cranking.
Good luck with your tacking, have fun!
Thanks for the reply! Yes, I will just keep trying it with the front foot in the straps. At least I have one less thing to experiment on ... Besides that maybe I should try to go as much past wind as possible. Just to get the hang on that! And only later on thinking on flipping the sail.
