Guys I wonder if you had experience of using foil-dedicated sails with regular windsurf boards. Would these sails work and feel more-less ok...? Example. Say I took my windfoil board, a regular windsurf freestyle board and say one sail, say duotone f-type 5.8. Wind picked up and I decided put f-type 5.8 on my regular freestyle windsurf board. Will the sail work OK? What would it feel like...? Will it drive that regular windsurf board nicely and sail well?
I also wonder if different brand foil sails can be more or less specialized as some have somewhat standard shape (ftype, flyer) and some like Hydra look pretty dedicated..
Check out Robby Naish's comments at the 6 minute mark about using his foiling sails for windsurfing.
Not so much racing but freestyle. Severne developed the Foil Freek together with Balz Mueller as a cross over foil / freestyle sail that works for both disciplines. Apparently both freestyle and foil sails benefit from lift so makes sense. Personally I wonder if that lift would also benefit in waves when the wind is light.
On a different note, Ben Severne last year gave me some tips on how to rig the Blade and Blade Pro sails for better lift for foiling. His main pointers were:
- run the extension 5 to 10 cms longer than indicated on the sail
- downhaul the sail to just before the leech becomes loose
Why would you run extension longer if you are not fully downhauling. That sail in the video is a bit different - it's a high aspect sail. Some foil sails are somewhat standard aspect.
Why I was asking about foil sails because personally I will never go above 5.8-6m in sail size for windsurfing or foiling. So that 5.8 shall have crazy low end then when wind picks up a bit I switch to 5.3 right away but it would be good to know if some foil sails work great for regular windsurfing especially ones that look less foil specialized..
I've used my 7m Neil Pryde Flight Evo on my slalom gear in 18+ knots and it worked well.
Seems downhaul tuning for wind conditions.
4.5, no downhaul and loose out, 14-20 knots.
4.5, max down and softer mast, 16-24 knot winds.
Select to expand quoteleto said..
Why would you run extension longer if you are not fully downhauling.
Moving the extension 10cm higher moves the centre effort in the sail further way from the board... ie relatively higher.
RE max sail size I think that depends on your weight. Look at Balz. His largest sail size from what I understand is 4.8 and in a lot of the windfoil videos he posts the wind is on the light side. Apparently his design brief for the FoilFreek was "a sail that works for both windsurfing and windfoiling and that rigs on a 400cm mast.
I wouldnt put the F-type on your freestyle board. I wouldnt put much over 5m on a freestyleboard anyhow, let alone a sail with cams. But something like the Severne foilfreek could work well, or just a regular freestyle sail, they are awesome for foiling.
I've tried my 2018 Sailworks Flyer 7.0 on a freeride board in 18-20 (I'm 100 kg so that's the size I would rig normally for that windstrength). Looked pretty, opened up properly when downhauled 2cm extra, but was really difficult to sail. The 2018 is a four-batten/two cam design and the newer five batten Flyers may work better, but that sail was really unstable and the power seems to be coming from the wrong place so the fin just wouldn't load up.
My usual sail for finning in that windstrength is a 7.5 HSM Speedfreak. It's definitely not as stable or lively on a foil as the Flyer, but I'm wondering what would happen if I put some tube/rod battens into it to try to force the draft a little more forward. That would allow me to carry only one sail for 10-16 (foiling) and 16-22 (fin)
Select to expand quoteleto said..
Why would you run extension longer if you are not fully downhauling. That sail in the video is a bit different - it's a high aspect sail. Some foil sails are somewhat standard aspect.
For foiling, you want to have the lift higher in the sail. Things like a tight leech, high aspect ratio, and a higher boom all move the lift higher. Freestyle work well for freeride foiling because they have a higher lift (and because they can be trimmed with a tight leech). Running the extension longer does the same thing.
I know that the higher lift works well for foiling, but I don't have a clue why. Can someone explain that to me?
Is it reversible? Does it mean that if
Freestyle sails work well on Foils < = > Foil sails may work well on freestyle boards for freeride side of things:)
WhiteofHeart, obviously 5m sail on freestyle board is amazing but the wind upper management sometimes doesn't provide enough wind for it and sometimes I have to go for 6 or 5.8. I don't like it. For me 5.8/ 6 is the max sail size I would own so would be nice to have a sail with some crazy low end which is great with foil even if it means loosing on freestyle side of spectrum.
Foiling isn't very sail specific unless you are racing or chasing super light wind. Wave, freestyle, etc sails all work pretty okay.
Finning is the opposite. I foil with wave sails exclusively, I'd never put a foil sail on my waveboard.
Select to expand quoteleto said..
... would be nice to have a sail with some crazy low end which is great with foil even if it means loosing on freestyle side of spectrum.
I have such sails. Use them for both foil and fin feeride. It's Ezzy Wave. Four sails (5.8, 5.2, 4.7, 4.2) cover for me winds from 10 to 35 knots.
;-)
I think you guys are missing the topic here. The topic is not about using any sails for foiling but rather using some lesser specialized foiling sails for regular windsurfing (blasting around) with an idea that they may give super amazing low wind performance in a smaller package, maybe even best low wind pull for their size..
Are all "foil" sails the same?
The most low end, per size, is the sail TUNED for low end, and a pilot willing and able to pump with the right board and fin combo.
Select to expand quoteleto said..
I think you guys are missing the topic here. The topic is not about using any sails for foiling but rather using some lesser specialized foiling sails for regular windsurfing (blasting around) with an idea that they may give super amazing low wind performance in a smaller package, maybe even best low wind pull for their size..
I've tried a Phantom RF foil racing sail, and a Loft skyscape on fin, both on slalomboards, worked quite well! Low foot sometimes got stuck behind the footstraps during the tacks, and they're both quite heavy to sail compared to regular windsurfing sails. Also slightly less forgiving in gustier winds because you get pulled upright by the high / forward draft.
All I'm saying is I dont see the match of 2 cam sail and a freestyle board happening. On a freeride board sure, do your thing if you're mainly foiling anyway.
Why bother barely planing with a sail that gets unruly if the wind picks up a little when you can simply foil in those conditions.
Better yet foil with a sail that works awesome with the fin board of your choice and you can usually just plug it right in if things get windier than you want to foil.
For me that's around 25kts or the moment there is a breaking wave.
Point 7 has 2 hybrid sails out this year, very nice concept!
7.6 slalom:
point-7.com/zero-21-overview/f1e76/?v=23bb4ebf8228
5.4 wave:
point-7.com/zero-21-overview/f1e54/?v=23bb4ebf8228
First test here:
www.windsurf.co.uk/point-7-f1e-5-4m-2021-test-review/
Good discussion in a previous thread. I like Vincent's video. GER1.
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/slalom-sails-for-foil?page=1
+1 on the GER1 video. If you watch it carefully and don't miss any of his points, you learn a lot. His basic point is that a foil sail is designed to push DOWN when powered. More cloth up high, more forward draft, higher center of effort, all go toward pushing down. The Sailworks Flyer exactly has these features. It also explains why the Goya Fringe is a successful and popular foil sail.
I am a relative beginner compared to most on this forum, but......seems to me, twist at the top is needed to bleed off excessive wind, as shown in Goyard's sail, and every racer I've seen at the Cal Cup races. CC is the local course race in SF Bay, around 12-17 competitors.
Pushing down seems wrong. When slightly OP'd, I rather have a sail that bleeds off the gusts, than one that pushes the nose down, however rat's done.
I suspect the popularity of foil sails, besides the NP and Severne full race sails, is their early foilng when underpowered, not their ability to control when fully powered and beyond.
How can foiling be so different than windsurfing, when talking speed and racing?
OK. Got amazing deal for 5.8 f-type. Rigged it on the ground. Rigs and looks like a charm on 400 rdm mast, rigs literally in minutes. Basically didn't notice any difference in time rigging my naish wave sails and ftype. Looks amazing on the ground, pretty similar to any slalom sail. Not sure why it has extra length in cam poles although they never fully go in..
Nothing anywhere on how deep battens shall go with cams removed.. as they can go all the way through the mast sleeve..
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
I am a relative beginner compared to most on this forum, but......seems to me, twist at the top is needed to bleed off excessive wind, as shown in Goyard's sail, and every racer I've seen at the Cal Cup races. CC is the local course race in SF Bay, around 12-17 competitors.
Pushing down seems wrong. When slightly OP'd, I rather have a sail that bleeds off the gusts, than one that pushes the nose down, however rat's done.
I suspect the popularity of foil sails, besides the NP and Severne full race sails, is their early foilng when underpowered, not their ability to control when fully powered and beyond.
How can foiling be so different than windsurfing, when talking speed and racing?
Slalom fins lift the back of the board when powered so they need lift from the sail to maintain trim until they get very powered. The leech twisting off allows just enough downforce to keep the board from tail walking in a big gust.
Foils are the opposite. They need a small amount of downforce to start and progressively more with speed.
Loose leech vs tight leech doesn't tell the whole story, draft position is different too.
Grantmac things you said make sense. Imagine these, and they relate to my original question...
1. Imagine you have a local spot half a block from your house which is a crowded public beach in the summer but you are given an exception to windsurf because lifeguards like you
2. One day when hundreds of people are there in lightish wind you may be scared to take your foil board and instead decide to take freestyle board for a quick session
3. You are the person (minimalist) who wants to have a single 5.8m/6m biggest sail which has the biggest bang for the buck in terms of low wind (you don't like these 6m sails in general) because all other sails you have are 5.3, 4.7, 4.0m cool wave sails and you take these right away with good wind to do crazy things
4. You are a good sailor but in 6m conditions you don't care about speed or being crazy powered up loading the fin and only do messing around and some small jumps
5. The wind at this location is known more for vanishing quickly than picking up and going crazy so starting with 6m sail and then being overpowered in an hour is somewhat rare.
I have a 14m kite too which will work in very low wind but given above conditions may not be best choice and can create risk and piss the lifeguards.. 
Maybe there are people who can relate.. That's why I asked how it feels to windsurf with foil sail that supposedly may have biggest low wind pull for its size given the person doesn't care about optimal performance in it's upper range..
In those conditions I take my foil because it's easier to spot objects in the water (people swimming) from a height and it's more maneuverable to avoid them.
Downforce, when starting to lift sounds counterintuitive.
Once foiling at speed, or finning at speed, added speed causes lift...breach or tailwalk.....no good.
I see racers adding more downhaul to their foil race sails as the wind exceeds their expectations.
Just like windsurf racers added downhaul in too high winds.
At 72 kgs., I use a 4.5 sail in 12-20 mph wind with max downhaul, fully twisted. Any less causes breaching. This allows for getting up on foil in 15 knot breeze without pumping.
Oh sorry.
My Hydras always benefit from full downhaul, so the wrinkle at the top batten goes to the top of the mast......just like my wave sails.
Hydras are foil sails.
Select to expand quoteleto said..
Grantmac things you said make sense. Imagine these, and they relate to my original question...
1. Imagine you have a local spot half a block from your house which is a crowded public beach in the summer but you are given an exception to windsurf because lifeguards like you
2. One day when hundreds of people are there in lightish wind you may be scared to take your foil board and instead decide to take freestyle board for a quick session
3. You are the person (minimalist) who wants to have a single 5.8m/6m biggest sail which has the biggest bang for the buck in terms of low wind (you don't like these 6m sails in general) because all other sails you have are 5.3, 4.7, 4.0m cool wave sails and you take these right away with good wind to do crazy things
4. You are a good sailor but in 6m conditions you don't care about speed or being crazy powered up loading the fin and only do messing around and some small jumps
5. The wind at this location is known more for vanishing quickly than picking up and going crazy so starting with 6m sail and then being overpowered in an hour is somewhat rare.
I have a 14m kite too which will work in very low wind but given above conditions may not be best choice and can create risk and piss the lifeguards.. Maybe there are people who can relate.. That's why I asked how it feels to windsurf with foil sail that supposedly may have biggest low wind pull for its size given the person doesn't care about optimal performance in it's upper range..
With a bigger fin you can use bigger sails on freestyle boards, so I think you will be able to use the F-type on your freestyle board, if you are worried about slicing up the tourists. I am not a sail expert but my guess is that the F-type would probably work fine in lighter wind finning, when it picks up you will rig down to one of your wave sails anyways.
The speed freak in the following video is not really a foiling sail, but i got it primarily for foiling (I rig it flatter and tighter leech for foil, and more traditional for fin)
I like fully twisted leeches and baggy outhaul for both fast windsurfing and for rec foiling.
Flat outhaul is twitchy...tight leech only has low end.
