Educate me on aspect ratio.

One word answer GLIDE

My wife started winging on the i84 and later added the 99 for lighter days. She's quite a bit shorter and lighter than you are, but liked the setup, and had no problem winging with a 4.2 in 30 knot gusts on this.

But recently, she switched to a HA Armstrong foil (1550 V2), after hearing Armstrong and HA foils praised by lots of other wingers. It took a couple of sessions to figure out how to get going efficiently on the new foil, but now, she has almost the same wind minimum as with the i84. The likes just about everything better on this foil, and won't use the Slingshots anymore. The biggest difference is the glide - once on the foil, it stays up better than the Slingshots, and can be pumped through bigger lulls. It's better for playing with swell. She loves that she can leave the foil assembled without worrying about corrosion and without needing grease and teflon tape, thanks to heli coils and all carbon, but that's not HA specific (lighter weight may be, though, since HA aspec foils are thinner). Note that the V tail is part of the equation, it really brings the 1550 to life.

Foils like the i84 and 99 are great to get started, when lower speed is a plus, and the technique to get going has to be learned. But later, going to higher aspect, more efficient foils seems to be a one-way street. Note that the Armstrong 1550 V2 is not technically a high aspect foil, but it is wider, about 1/3 shorter, and at least 1/3 thinner. That means the lift-to-drag ratio, and hence the glide, is a lot better.

in the HG Infinity range that are used for winging (76, 84, 99), the 99 is has the highest AR and the 84 the lowest IIRC.

I think one measurement of foils that goes un-reported is foil thickness.. this also has a huge impact on foil performance. The i84 is low AR, high thickness, high area. It is generally a slow foil.

My Fanatic HA 1750 for me got going just as early as the i99 but had much more speed and top end range... much more glide, too. it's a medium AR foil with decent thickness (thinner than HG)

The SABFoil/Moses stuff tends to have even leaner foil sections... less raw grunt, but more speed and glide.

As you get better and more efficient, popping up easily on foil becomes less important and speed and carry through transitions becomes a more favorable characteristic.

YMMV

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excav8ter said..
So I have exclusive been using Slingshot foils, and mainly I use the i84, but I also have the i99 and a new i76 (that has never been used)
At 6'4" and 220lbs, I find the i84 to be a great wing, but it seems to get overpowered pretty easily. Especially when wingfoiling, which I want to do more of.
Slingshot is rumored to be introducing more foils in the Phantasm lineup, as well as a new 1600 sq. cm. foil.

Help convince me that I need an HA front foil in my life. I like the i99 for light wind and slow moving waves and the i84 for when it gets bigger and more windy. Am I missing the boat on HA fouls? My pumping skills are improving on the windfoil and hopefully will get better on the wingfoil too.

Thanks!

I've been trying to figure out possible benefits of HA over LA.
Did a back to back test yesterday in 15 knots riding awesome 1m bumps at my local beach of the 2 Phantasm wings below.
The 926 HA wing is now 835mm. It carved too slowly at 926mm.

The 730 gets up on foil in in about 10 knots. The HA about 11.
They both turn about the same in full power carves, banking into a swell etc.
The HA is definitely looser, quicker turning and more playful - the 730's steadier, ride height is "set and forget", I can stay up on foil when almost stationary (great for gybing in difficult conditions).

Surprisingly they fly at similar speeds, for me max 23-24 knots on the ocean pushing it, easy cruising at 20 knots.
Expected the HA to be a lot faster (because of the HA hype) but realize now that the speed limiter is probably control and that's unlikely to change unless we use longer fuselages - but then we'll lose turning and carving capability.
Also the 730 (almost identical to the amazing Infinity 76) is fast for it's size, partly due to its unusually sharp leading edge.

As Damien says at 2.40 in the excellent video below - if you have a power source (sail, kite, wing) you don't need wide high aspect wings - HA glide is nice to have (essential for prone and SUP foilers) but usually comes at the cost of carving capability because of the extra width.

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azymuth said..

excav8ter said..
So I have exclusive been using Slingshot foils, and mainly I use the i84, but I also have the i99 and a new i76 (that has never been used)
At 6'4" and 220lbs, I find the i84 to be a great wing, but it seems to get overpowered pretty easily. Especially when wingfoiling, which I want to do more of.
Slingshot is rumored to be introducing more foils in the Phantasm lineup, as well as a new 1600 sq. cm. foil.

Help convince me that I need an HA front foil in my life. I like the i99 for light wind and slow moving waves and the i84 for when it gets bigger and more windy. Am I missing the boat on HA fouls? My pumping skills are improving on the windfoil and hopefully will get better on the wingfoil too.

Thanks!

I've been trying to figure out possible benefits of HA over LA.
Did a back to back test yesterday in 15 knots riding awesome 1m bumps at my local beach, of the 2 Phantasm wings below.
The 926 HA wing is now 835mm. It carved too slowly at 926mm.

The 730 gets up on foil in in about 10 knots. The HA about 11.
They both turn about the same in full power carves, banking into a swell etc.
The HA is definitely looser, quicker turning and more playful - the 730's steadier, ride height is "set and forget", you can stay up on foil when you're almost stationary (great for gybing in difficult conditions).

Surprisingly they fly at similar speeds, for me max 23-24 knots on the ocean pushing it, easy cruising at 20 knots.
I expected the HA to be a lot faster (because of the HA hype) but I realize now that the speed limiter is probably control and that won't change unless we use longer fuselages - but then you lose turning and carving capability.
Also the 730 (almost identical to the amazing Infinity 76) is fast for it's size, partly due to it's very thin front edge.

As Damien says at 2.40 in the excellent video below - if you have a power source (sail, kite, wing) you don't need wide high aspect wings - HA glide is nice to have (essential for prone and SUP foilers) but usually comes at the cost of carving capability because of the extra width.

JJ, I had to read that twice when you said the 926 is now 835 wow

Really good real world feedback as well... a thinner, slightly smaller version of i76 sounds really nice and having a deeper chord (less wing width) also sounds like a carving machine.

Thanks JJ! Please clarify what dimension is 835, is that the span or the surface area.

It's interesting to note that JJ noticed the cons of the HA wing but could not get the speed out of it. As shown in his videos he rides at a high level and if he can't get the speed most others on this forum won't either.

Sailing boats and their foils (keels, rudders and sails) have gone through a similar progression and I have tried it all from full keel with a low rig to deep keel and tall rigs. The super conservative full keels are just too slow, they don't turn and are a nightmare in the marina. The extreme race boats are really hard to sail and don't win unless in the hands of pros. J boats has done a great job balancing performance and fun. In the world of foilboarding I think designs like the I76 are the similar sweet spot.

Interestingly the recent America's was a match between high aspect and low aspect. It was a surprisingly close match in spite of the huge difference in foil designs. The Italians hung in there and had moments of brilliance with early lift and point from their low aspect delta wings. If the Kiwi's got free and could reach their top speeds it was no contest and in the end they won but it took them a bunch of races to do it. For me the takeaway is if you are not racing why not go 95 percent as fast on something easy to use?

If I were to reach a high level with my pump foiling I think I may be interested in going to a higher aspect ratio to harness the glide. I have tried a high aspect set up windfoiling and in a word I just found it Cranky. Personally, foilboarding is a fun and fascinating way to sail and surf that is NOT racing. For that reason I prefer foil designs with more cord, low stall speed, low take off speed and user friendliness. As foil designs get pushed into more extreme aspect ratios these qualities go away.

Every design is a trade off, pick your poison.

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excav8ter said..

CoreAS said..

excav8ter said..

CoreAS said..
When you say over powered on the i84 when winging, what board and HG set up are you using (mast, fuse, mast position & rear wing).

I use the i84 up to 30+ knots but foil set up and board type is essential, if its set up wrong it will make life really difficult.

When I used the i84 on Sunday I was on the 90cm mast, the Switch fuse and the foil mast in position B. The board was the Shred Sled (which I am definitely enjoying learning on). I was using the new F-One Strike CWC 7.0 and the wind was around 24-28mph. I had no problem holding the wing, although I was a bit overpowered in the gusts. Perhaps I had too much wing?

Yes sounds like too much wing. As you progress with winging and get more efficient you'll definitely start using smaller wings. I have winged with a 4.0 and i84 in 36 mph gusts and it was very smooth and predictable.
I use the exact same foil set up for winging as I do for wind foiling, long fuse in B.

When learning to wing I used the short fuse and got nothing out of it. Some folk will say it pumps better but it's just personal preference. The long fuse gives you a really nice balance in gybes when the wind backs off.

As I was thinking back, I definitely remember some times Sunday when I felt the 7.0 wing was "lifting" me a bit. That definitely contributed to the feeling of over foiling.

Any thoughts on what a good quiver of wings should look like for a guy my size? 6'4" and 220-225lbs.... Currently I have the F-One Strike 7.0 CWC, and 2 Slingshot v2's in 6.4 and 4.4. I was thinking originally when I learned about thr Strike CWC line-up that I'd go with the 8.0 and keep my 6.4 and 4.4, but was told that having 3 wings wouldn't be necessary. So then I decided to go 7.0 Strike CWC and 5.0 Strike. I haven't purchased the 5.0 yet, but planned on picking it up Saturday morning.

I have a Strike 5.0 and tried the CWC 7.0, I think they match nicely, if you go into really high winds you could add a 3.5, but ai think the 5.0's range is already huge and perfectly usable upto 30 knots (had 35+ in the gusts eith it and was doable). For me, the Strike 5.0 needs a 12 knot gust to get up with 1480cm2 HA Phantom wing. (95Kg)

Important to realize is that the Strikes are very efficient wings (thin / efficient profile & leading edge), they do a lot better with faster foils. I also used the strike with the big F-One surf wings (1800 & 2200 LA), and they dont do the Strike justice, if you're planning to keep using the LA Slingshot foils I think you might be better off buying the Swing, which has a little more grunt and lower top speed, meaning you have access to more power during transitions etc. If you need it. With a HA foil you dont need power in the transitions because of the high glide, and having a fast sail/wing allows to reach the high speeds required to float through the tacks etc.

I think matching your sail to your foil is also very important to unlock the potential. With regards to the PTM/ 730 comparison above, I think the PTM would feel a lot nicer with more downhaul and thighter outhaul, whereas the 730 might feel better with the sail bagged out and very little lose leech. If you use an inefficient rig / wing (in terms of speed) on an efficient foil it wont do it justice, and I think the same is true the other way round.

In my opinion, in the video both wings were low aspect, at least compared to my AFS F1080 and F770 wings. Low aspect wings have more lift and more drag, so they are slower.