Hi all, greetings.I am new to seabreeze and the forum, having read a number of interesting articles and discussions here I wish to ask the experts on advise on what is the best custom made hydrofoil made or finished in Australia or New Zealand.
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My interest if for a multi purpose set-up able to be adapted for Wave/Surf (wake/prone), Wing and Kite assisted foiling.
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I understand not many brands have custom made foils for specific biotypes and riding styles so I am avoiding stuff that is mass produced which you end up with 10 foil sets to do the job.
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All suggestions are appreciated, $$$ are not the defining factor.
Cheers, SG
multi purpose set-up able to be adapted for Wave/Surf (wake/prone), Wing and Kite assisted foiling.
<=Sabfoils - the new Kraken-System
One brief comment. Since you omitted windsurf foiling from your wishes, this makes things somewhat simpler.
Windsurf foils have a quite different geometry from foils for wake/surf/wing/kite.
Foils for wake/surf/wing/kite are close in geometry, and it should not be difficult to find a good production foil, with maybe one or two extra front wings and stabs and fuselages, that will work well for all aspects of wake/surf/wing/kite foiling. Friends of mine use the same foils for wake, wing, and kite foiling. They tweak things a little bit with front wings, stabs, and fuse lengths, but they do it all with just one big kit.
Select to expand quotet36 said..
multi purpose set-up able to be adapted for Wave/Surf (wake/prone), Wing and Kite assisted foiling.
<=Sabfoils - the new Kraken-System
You mean the rebranded Moses right?
I am afraid the design of a mast that unplugs easier do not qualify as custom built or is even any better, just like every other mast you still have to fit in a new fuselage size if you want to change anything substantial plus is heavy, and you remain locked on wings that have as many options as a board rack on a surf shop. All designs are lightly modified form old originals made in a deal with Slingshot which ended pear shape.
This not to mention the brand or re-brand unbeatable record of failures, delaminating, mixed materials found on broken gear exposing dry fibre including glass, low grade carbon and also wood, and foam. I did bought quite a few foils from them, all money lost masts are wobbly heavy and bulky.
I am looking for someone who could shape a foil set like a real shaper would craft a board. Unfortunately nobody makes foils in Australia or New Zealand.
Select to expand quotesegler said..
One brief comment. Since you omitted windsurf foiling from your wishes, this makes things somewhat simpler.
Windsurf foils have a quite different geometry from foils for wake/surf/wing/kite.
Foils for wake/surf/wing/kite are close in geometry, and it should not be difficult to find a good production foil, with maybe one or two extra front wings and stabs and fuselages, that will work well for all aspects of wake/surf/wing/kite foiling. Friends of mine use the same foils for wake, wing, and kite foiling. They tweak things a little bit with front wings, stabs, and fuse lengths, but they do it all with just one big kit.
Hi Yes I agree its just that I am looking for something truly custom, a collaboration with a craftsman, a bit like getting a surf board shaped, crafted and fitted with fins to get you riding waves in a unique way, I am ok with gear, I have a few sets of Alpine Foils which have impeccable finish top materials and own production in France (nothing comes from Asia) but their wings are not developed with waves in mind and are outperformed in almost every condition by the likes of Unifoil, Armstrong, F-one, which has a great mast and fuselage system and wings that are far from all purpose and have the inconvenience of being made in Asia and in the same factory.
In the past I have bought Moses ( huge deception ), Levitaz ( slow, heavy, dysfunctional ), Taaroa ( at best free ride kitefoil ), f-one proved to be essentially a kite riding foil repurposed to ride slow on waves.
Again my interest is to support and develop local designers, builders and not buy a kit that certainly costs less but literally gets my money to sponsor the contracting of sub-human labour in Asia, support unsustainable polluting logistics, finance disparity of income, ( complete foil sets cost between 350 and 500 US$ freight is never free, it always comes embedded on the final price which easily reaches 2000 and over ) I rather pay 3000 to a local guy who will spend his money buying local produce, repaying student loan, mortgage or educating his kids.
It's about time water sports develop collective positive actions towards sustainability, social responsibility and care for the people that gets exploited making these products which inundate pristine beaches with their visual pollution, ever increasing branding exposure which only make paradisiac spots look like a cheap electronics shops street at night, it is sad to see riders acting like unpaid billboard carriers who have to rely on the size and value of the brand you carry to help set them aside from other riders.Many thanks for the suggestion, I'll keep searching. Cheers
I'll make you wings. No worries. Lots of people can make a quality wing.
Why does it appear nobody is making them here? The problem is cost for a start - not the fact it has lots of carbon in it, so what, I buy in bulk - but the real issue the labour and needing many different moulds. Nobody wants to pay same $$$ for a custom wing with unknown characteristics when they can buy off the shelf
I agree with you on the quality issues.
I just can't see any custom board manufacturer (or any other business who does lots of composites moulding) making custom foils and having a few different sizes avail.
One off job, yes. If you want a one-off, something different, let me know
I have made a complete surf foil by hand and it was time consuming and it did not perform. To get top performance there needs to be tooling, preferably metal tooling and that doesn't pair finacially well with custom. If you decouple Custom from locally built you may have more luck because tooling cost get amortized over a production run. Your location could be an advantage, look into the high end boatbuilders. Perhaps the guy that does CAD and has acces to a CNC machine has a passion for foilboarding. Basically I think you need to build the business your self starting with gear you want to ride and hope that others will want similar.
To my knowledge, the only "little" guy who makes custom carbon foils is Mike's Lab (Mike Zajicek) in San Francisco. He also makes custom boards--formula, slalom, wave, kite, you name it. He has the tooling and equipment, and knowledge, to make all this stuff. Or used to anyway.
His formula boards were by far the best I ever had. I still use a L6 as a platform for tweaking and tuning and learning foils.
Actually there might be another "little" guy who can make custom all-carbon foils. Peter Lederer, who made LP foils in the gorge.
You might want to see what it takes to really make high end wings and foils. Custom is a one off product. Not going to happen for complete set that will beat the quality of high end manufacturing. If you can show me some wings from a custom shop that have the R&D in them and quality like AFS, Phantom, Loke or even SB, please let me know.
Since I live in Miami, in the beginning I was getting my custom foils via Tillo International, he's 10 minutes away and my buddy. Before that ,custom fins/boards same place, before that Mikes Lab when he was still excepting projects, for wave boards witchcraft...As things progressed and I moved from windfoil race to windfoil wave and didn't find what I like, I found the company with the largest selection of wings/stabs (Gong), designed custom fusilage and re-used Tillo super stiff carbon masts, so far so good, keep on improving my performance by mix match diff wings/stabs... End of the month getting another wing/stab from Gong and my new foil board from Tillo
should be finally ready as well., Let the chase for the perfect ride keep going....
Select to expand quoteutcminusfour said..
I have made a complete surf foil by hand and it was time consuming and it did not perform. To get top performance there needs to be tooling, preferably metal tooling and that doesn't pair finacially well with custom. If you decouple Custom from locally built you may have more luck because tooling cost get amortized over a production run. Your location could be an advantage, look into the high end boatbuilders. Perhaps the guy that does CAD and has acces to a CNC machine has a passion for foilboarding. Basically I think you need to build the business your self starting with gear you want to ride and hope that others will want similar.
Hi, Thanks for the suggestion, I have reached got professional boat builders and even these avoid these jobs as the work requires precision they cannot offer in a scale where tenths of mm make a huge difference. I am looking at machining blocks of carbon.Cheers,
Select to expand quotemiamiwindsurfe said..
Since I live in Miami, in the beginning I was getting my custom foils via Tillo International, he's 10 minutes away and my buddy. Before that ,custom fins/boards same place, before that Mikes Lab when he was still excepting projects, for wave boards witchcraft...As things progressed and I moved from windfoil race to windfoil wave and didn't find what I like, I found the company with the largest selection of wings/stabs (Gong), designed custom fusilage and re-used Tillo super stiff carbon masts, so far so good, keep on improving my performance by mix match diff wings/stabs... End of the month getting another wing/stab from Gong and my new foil board from Tillo
should be finally ready as well., Let the chase for the perfect ride keep going....
Thanks Yes I have Mikes Lab kitefoil models 3, 4 & 6 all very good stiff well made and fast. actually too fast for wave/sup and small for wing. I understand his foils were copied all over the place and a number of companies offer fuselages that fit their mast, the issue with their systems being configured as a full glider with front, and rear wing permanently attached to the fuselage is that you have no adjustments apart playing with washers inside the tuttle box.I will check on Tilo I am not sure on Gong their gear seems to be mass produced in Asia and I heard lots of problems with quality.Cheers
Select to expand quotesegler said..
To my knowledge, the only "little" guy who makes custom carbon foils is Mike's Lab (Mike Zajicek) in San Francisco. He also makes custom boards--formula, slalom, wave, kite, you name it. He has the tooling and equipment, and knowledge, to make all this stuff. Or used to anyway.
His formula boards were by far the best I ever had. I still use a L6 as a platform for tweaking and tuning and learning foils.
Actually there might be another "little" guy who can make custom all-carbon foils. Peter Lederer, who made LP foils in the gorge.
Hi Yes I have Mike's gear bullet 3, 4 and 6 all great for kitefoiling but too fast for waves and a bit small for wing. I am trying a few fuselages that were made for foils that copied Mike's foils hopefully I may be able to find these and then the work is on making the custom wings.
Select to expand quoteZeroVix said..
You might want to see what it takes to really make high end wings and foils. Custom is a one off product. Not going to happen for complete set that will beat the quality of high end manufacturing. If you can show me some wings from a custom shop that have the R&D in them and quality like AFS, Phantom, Loke or even SB, please let me know.
Custom can happen it is just a matter of finding the builders who can do that in this time. I actually have got a bit of gear in the past from carbon specialists that make prototypes it comes with a price but it is possible.
I have not tried anything from AFS I know it is made in France but in the same mass production system using heat press with infusion. Their performance is nothing special though. As to Phantom, and SB they are made in the same factory in Asia I never used anything from them or Loke but and their performance for anything other than wind foiling is unknown quantity.
I disagree with your perception of high end manufacturing quality for any brand you mentioned. I have and use Alpine Foils which for me are the best made for any discipline sold commercially.
I actually know and have spoken many times with the folks at WAVEFOILS who only makes custom foils mainly for racing or special projects for anything you want, they produce all their one-off components in places that build race winning yachts, aerospace or motor racing equipment and count with being part of a group that has its own design and development arm AEROHYDROTECH. As far as I know no other foil manufacturer has the same technology, expertise and foil design knowledge.
They don't come cheap but the only issue is that they are inundated with work for aerospace, motor racing, renewable transportation and consulting for AC cup. I am already on a waiting list and likely to get a multi disciplinary foil set early next year, I was hoping I could get someone to make me something before then.
I am happy to use some masts I have from Mikes Lab and get fuselages from brands that copied Mike's work so all I need now is front and rear wings, otherwise I also i have Alpine foils masts and fuselages that also need new custom wings. I hope I may find something before this time next year.Cheers
Some of you guys are off the planet. Really.
Tenths of a millimetre? Geez.
And nobody can make one as good as factory? That's insulting to a lot of folks who are doing it. I agree with the assertion that custom guys can't do the R&D - but what they do is copy the mass produced rubbish with far greater quality, and tweak it for the consumer who may want to change one little thing.
Foils are a lot harder to make now they're changing AOA along the length / tip washout so a hand foiled product is a lot harder but a CAD designed /CNC'd core with hand layup could be made by a lot of people. Like I said though, no little guy is going to make foils due to the tooling required for all the different wings. But custom, yes for sure.
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
Some of you guys are off the planet. Really.
Tenths of a millimetre? Geez.
And nobody can make one as good as factory? That's insulting to a lot of folks who are doing it. I agree with the assertion that custom guys can't do the R&D - but what they do is copy the mass produced rubbish with far greater quality, and tweak it for the consumer who may want to change one little thing.
Foils are a lot harder to make now they're changing AOA along the length / tip washout so a hand foiled product is a lot harder but a CAD designed /CNC'd core with hand layup could be made by a lot of people. Like I said though, no little guy is going to make foils due to the tooling required for all the different wings. But custom, yes for sure.
Sorry but I would not get anything made from a copy of someone's design or production I find unethical to walk in a workshop and ask someone for a foil or anything knowing they will use someone's work to make an adaptation or anything without proper process, what you describe as anyone can make a wing out of machined core and lay-up carbon simply does not apply or work, without precise jigs and moulds, or very expensive machining this just cannot happen.
I see a lot of people copying equipment making a few changes and calling it a foil, I am an Engineer by training turned into Software I can assure you that most commercial operations do not invest in Software, Hardware or R&D and cannot afford running simulations or tank testing as both cost hundreds of times more than the versions of apps people download to play with or making foils out of 3d printed plastic moulds or at best MDF to make a few foils give to riders to test take pictures place on social media and rave about it.
I have not seen yet any foil made in Australia or NZ comparable to what you can get from Alpine foil in terms of quality of a production foil. They are simply the best unfortunately their wings are not up to speed with wave & sup.If you have made these please show, maybe you have a huge market in your hands.
As I mentioned before I am on a waiting list to get my custom gear next year if you can deliver before anything comparable I am ready to get something while I wait.
Cheers
^^ well you need to decide what you're complaining about then
You are surprised that small custom guys are not turning out foils that are 100% their own design AND rival that of the biggest companies ..... well of course not, as they can't do the R&D and hydro flow testing and pay an engineer.
You want a custom job done with good construction, BUT you don't want them to base it off an existing product and tweak it for the individual user (and knowing you will get better construction as its fastidiously handmade) ?? So what do you want - R&D or custom good construction?
The reality is big companies have a really good shape from lots of expensive R&D, and then dial down the construction to the cheapest sh!t they can get away with.
Sounds like you're asking for miracles from a one-guy operation. So far all you do in this thread is complain about factory stuff and then ask for a custom guy... and then claim a custom build would be impossible.
You did say initially "I am looking for someone who could shape a foil set like a real shaper would craft a board. "
Then later:" what you describe as anyone can make a wing out of machined core and lay-up carbon simply does not apply or work, without precise jigs and moulds, or very expensive machining this just cannot happen. "
Really? That is rubbish and is an insult to the many people doing all sorts of moulding for aero wings, fins, hydrofoils, and god knows what else. So you want it, but when I offer it you say its impossible.... which is it??!!!
But maybe you know that - as the post before, you said " Custom can happen it is just a matter of finding the builders who can do that in this time. I actually have got a bit of gear in the past from carbon specialists that make prototypes it comes with a price but it is possible."
If you are a great engineer, YOU design the wing, have it machined in 100kg PVC foam and then get the right person to laminate it (and make neg moulds to ensure consistency). Simple. But given your whinge about factory, then you whinge about lack of custom then saying its possible then saying its not, I say the whole thread is a big troll ..... Mr first time poster with no location but great fully sik skills.
Further, you want this made in Aust or NZ but given some of the poor grammar in some sentences you sound overseas. Where are you?
Select to expand quotesoftguru said..utcminusfour said..
I have made a complete surf foil by hand and it was time consuming and it did not perform. To get top performance there needs to be tooling, preferably metal tooling and that doesn't pair finacially well with custom. If you decouple Custom from locally built you may have more luck because tooling cost get amortized over a production run. Your location could be an advantage, look into the high end boatbuilders. Perhaps the guy that does CAD and has acces to a CNC machine has a passion for foilboarding. Basically I think you need to build the business your self starting with gear you want to ride and hope that others will want similar.
Hi, Thanks for the suggestion, I have reached got professional boat builders and even these avoid these jobs as the work requires precision they cannot offer in a scale where tenths of mm make a huge difference. I am looking at machining blocks of carbon.Cheers,
I have experience with machining foils from blocks of carbon and g-10 with a 3 axis router cause I am the CAD guy at a boat shop. This approach really limits how much dihedral or anhedral shape you can add to the design because you need to cut away a lot of $$ material and the Z height limits of most machines are pretty small. Surf style wings have a lot of shape in those directions. That said this will work fine for flatter thinner wings, many folks are doing this. Let me know if I can help with the 3D modeling.
Select to expand quotesoftguru said..miamiwindsurfe said..
Since I live in Miami, in the beginning I was getting my custom foils via Tillo International, he's 10 minutes away and my buddy. Before that ,custom fins/boards same place, before that Mikes Lab when he was still excepting projects, for wave boards witchcraft...As things progressed and I moved from windfoil race to windfoil wave and didn't find what I like, I found the company with the largest selection of wings/stabs (Gong), designed custom fusilage and re-used Tillo super stiff carbon masts, so far so good, keep on improving my performance by mix match diff wings/stabs... End of the month getting another wing/stab from Gong and my new foil board from Tillo
should be finally ready as well., Let the chase for the perfect ride keep going....
Thanks Yes I have Mikes Lab kitefoil models 3, 4 & 6 all very good stiff well made and fast. actually too fast for wave/sup and small for wing. I understand his foils were copied all over the place and a number of companies offer fuselages that fit their mast, the issue with their systems being configured as a full glider with front, and rear wing permanently attached to the fuselage is that you have no adjustments apart playing with washers inside the tuttle box.I will check on Tilo I am not sure on Gong their gear seems to be mass produced in Asia and I heard lots of problems with quality.Cheers
The foils from Mike use a shim at the fuse to mast connection not at the tuttle head.
Very adjustable
Here in the bay area you see a lot of very good and talented wingers riding mikes foils with tuttle heads. (you will see more of this as time goes on it's stiffer and lighter.) Those were mikes own words. On this day Mike was riding a wing board that was only 6.5 lbs that was shaped by a talented rider from Rio Vista (the delta). It was LIGHT
I find it hard that you couldn't find wings that work well (With slow low stall speeds that turn). You need a wing that can pivot without falling.
In freeride wave riding the stiff mast thing is not that important Low Stall Speed and craving is #1 thing for slow speed craving.
By most of your posts it seems like your more concerned about the technical side and manufacturing location then instead of being focused on riding time.
All brand of foils have problem it's a sport that is evolving quickly also the designs can change quickly.
Also riding in the surf means your in shallow water in turn your going to hit things (rocks, sand and shorebreak) It can get expensive quick.
Best thing is to go find some cheap slingshot stuff. The 76 is perfect for this kind of riding and will help you discover your riding style before you invest time and money in gear also this will give you more time on the water TOW.
Me personally I've ridden the same foil wings (Moses 790,679) for 3 seasons with hundreds of hours of this type of riding. I'm still unlocking skill and style from my wings.
This is all before we even start talking about sails.
Wave sails
1/2 batten
3 batten
4 batten
The list goes on
