What is needed in windsurf foil boards, for an accomplished user not a beginner?
Ideas that the factory boards are not considering?
Some thoughts
1. I have a wing/windfoil board that has a carry handle on the bottom. From a hydrodynamic standpoint, I'm sure it's a disaster (drag). From a get the board in the water standpoint, it's lovely since I have T. Rex arms and the normal way of carrying boards is hard for me since they aren't long enough to reach around the board. One hand in the handle, the other in the boom - easy peasy.
Won't be for everyone and I know some boards do have handles - I know RRD puts some on top - but if that helps you.
2. Beef up the nose. Use extra material up there. It won't prevent the inevitable but at least it won't be a common occurence. Also, the bottom of the nose a bit because I've had a couple of hits that didn't do in the top but the top was able to push down enough so that the bottom broke, separated away, so most of the skin damage was on the bottom. Maybe also use denser foam in the front 20cm?
Something with a compact shape under 7' long. Designed for early release with small sails. Short sail to foil distance for turns. I like the foil forward of the tail to aid slogging and to reduce swing weight. Easy to uphaul with the front foot forward of the mast, easy to tack and capable of sailing in displacement mode. Volume in the 145-160 range. Call it the Rocket Log. Everything with enough float for my desires and needs is too long, for beginners or for use with 7+ meter sails. Because it gets lifted free of the water, volume is not a problem so why not have the float? Even in the most extreme forms of sailboat racing they never decide to use a hull that won't float them just becasue it windy! Here is my thought from about 6 months ago: it's 143 liters and obviously influenced by wing boards. Looking at it today I want more volume total with more of it in front of the mast track. Note the twin bottom handles, this will roll the board upside down when carried so you have more wave clearance. I have not made the time to develop this further 
. My rule with boat building or board building projects for fun is that they should never keep me from sailing. Work and sailing have filled my bandwidth lately but I would love to see someone else run with this, I can help with small amounts of CAD work,
UTC - Tillo makes a board very similar to what you describe. Look at the 125: www.tillo-international.com/?page_id=836
Thanks Awalkspoiled! I dig those boards! I started on a 125l board and its way to small for what I am trying to do. I did not realize Tilo had a 156. Thats the sort of volume I am after but at 7.5' its way to long. Its hard to get the volume I want into a really short board but I think it's worth exploring.
Select to expand quoteutcminusfour said..
Thanks Awalkspoiled! I dig those boards! I started on a 125l board and its way to small for what I am trying to do. I did not realize Tilo had a 156. Thats the sort of volume I am after but at 7.5' its way to long. Its hard to get the volume I want into a really short board but I think it's worth exploring.
Alex will build it to your specifications. He takes a long time to deliver (he's pretty busy) but the work is first rate and his communication back and forth is excellent also. I asked him for a slightly longer, floatier version of the Foil-Slalom Convertible, so that I could readily carry a 10.0 with a fin, with extra Innegra on the nose and impact-areas of the rails, so I wouldn't have to worry about the mast bashing the board when foiling, and I'm really happy with the thing, which is now two years old and going strong. I think John Parton (formerly of Pro-Tech) shapes his blanks, and he does the lamination himself.
He's an interesting guy, btw - escaped from Cuba on an IMCO. Broke the boom 20 miles out and might have been in trouble but the Lieutenant Governor was out boating and brought him in. Well-established member of the Miami community by now.
I'm waiting for a company to take the "wide top, narrow bottom" approach that can be seen, for example, on the tail of the Starboard 150 freeride and use it over the entire length of the board. It would make the life easier for lazy pumpers in light conditions by allowing to reach higher board speeds more easily.
I had some of my first foil sessions on the Slingshot Flyer 280. The long and skinny shapes picks up speed very easily - almost too easy, with little resistance left after a couple of pumps going downwind. I did a lot of foil sessions on an old and long 71 cm slalom board, which also accelerated well. With my current Stingray 140, it seems that I need many more "all out" pumps to reach take off speed when it's light. But the extra 14-20 cm of widths are essential for control and angles. I'll probably build a little platform for the old slalom board next spring to get extra width at the back, and see how that compares to the Stingray.
I have nothing to add myself but these guys are going for a Moth class hull shape: www.facebook.com/Elix-funboard-616040088418393
Select to expand quotePaducah said..
2. Beef up the nose. Use extra material up there. It won't prevent the inevitable but at least it won't be a common occurence. Also, the bottom of the nose a bit because I've had a couple of hits that didn't do in the top but the top was able to push down enough so that the bottom broke, separated away, so most of the skin damage was on the bottom. Maybe also use denser foam in the front 20cm?
Definitely that. Even experts crash.
I couldnt fit a Unifiber nose protector as intended because of subtle concave and convex curves at the end of the board.
I think a lot of boards could do with beefier noses. I know someone who cracked and split open a squarer nosed FSW from dropping the mast on it entering the gybe, he fell off the back of the board. The board is very thin there, and the tail.
It took me a few catapults to damage my freerace board, hit wood and plastic bags in the first 6 months of ownership. I repaired it with a few layers of light woven glass cloth and after another 5 years use it hasn't got an indentation on the nose.
Its hardly any heavier, but they add heavier foilboxes on loads of boards these days.
Select to expand quotePhilUK said..Paducah said..
2. Beef up the nose. Use extra material up there. It won't prevent the inevitable but at least it won't be a common occurence. Also, the bottom of the nose a bit because I've had a couple of hits that didn't do in the top but the top was able to push down enough so that the bottom broke, separated away, so most of the skin damage was on the bottom. Maybe also use denser foam in the front 20cm?
Definitely that. Even experts crash.
I couldnt fit a Unifiber nose protector as intended because of subtle concave and convex curves at the end of the board.
I think a lot of boards could do with beefier noses. I know someone who cracked and split open a squarer nosed FSW from dropping the mast on it entering the gybe, he fell off the back of the board. The board is very thin there, and the tail.
It took me a few catapults to damage my freerace board, hit wood and plastic bags in the first 6 months of ownership. I repaired it with a few layers of light woven glass cloth and after another 5 years use it hasn't got an indentation on the nose.
Its hardly any heavier, but they add heavier foilboxes on loads of boards these days.
FYI, Unifiber has the new ones that work on 100cm boards.
www.unifiber.net/windsurf-gear/accessories/universal-double-density-3m-self-adhesive-nose-protector-xxl-5f7402d424c4478c6cb30000
I know what you mean. Mine (old style) look weird and stretched on the 85cm & 100cm boards.
Oh, and my suggestion is to build more durable boards for impact. Especially the nose area.
Select to expand quoteZeroVix said..PhilUK said..Paducah said..
2. Beef up the nose. Use extra material up there. It won't prevent the inevitable but at least it won't be a common occurence. Also, the bottom of the nose a bit because I've had a couple of hits that didn't do in the top but the top was able to push down enough so that the bottom broke, separated away, so most of the skin damage was on the bottom. Maybe also use denser foam in the front 20cm?
Definitely that. Even experts crash.
I couldnt fit a Unifiber nose protector as intended because of subtle concave and convex curves at the end of the board.
I think a lot of boards could do with beefier noses. I know someone who cracked and split open a squarer nosed FSW from dropping the mast on it entering the gybe, he fell off the back of the board. The board is very thin there, and the tail.
It took me a few catapults to damage my freerace board, hit wood and plastic bags in the first 6 months of ownership. I repaired it with a few layers of light woven glass cloth and after another 5 years use it hasn't got an indentation on the nose.
Its hardly any heavier, but they add heavier foilboxes on loads of boards these days.
FYI, Unifiber has the new ones that work on 100cm boards.
www.unifiber.net/windsurf-gear/accessories/universal-double-density-3m-self-adhesive-nose-protector-xxl-5f7402d424c4478c6cb30000
I know what you mean. Mine (old style) look weird and stretched on the 85cm & 100cm boards.
Oh, and my suggestion is to build more durable boards for impact. Especially the nose area.
That Unifiber pad is the one I bought. The blocks are about 10cm wide so need a 10cm flat area to stick onto. My AHD board doesnt have that amount of flat area right at the nose. If I stuck it right at the end only a small amount of the pad would be in contact with the board and wouldnt stay there long.
What I should have done when I realised they werent a good fit, is cut each pad in 5cm strips and just put those around the flatter area right at the nose.
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
What is needed in windsurf foil boards, for an accomplished user not a beginner?
Ideas that the factory boards are not considering?
For me after foiliing 3 years. Last two years on my favorite board; Slingshot wizard 105.
Short length around 5'5. Something in between a wizard 103(5') and a wizard 105(5'10).
Thicker in the tail(5.5"). New wizards are around 5". With the thicker profile. I imagine it could be somewhere close to the 110L range even though its 6" shorter.
About 70cm wide with chimed rails. Slightly more narrow then the old wizards but not at radical as the new ones.
More comfy deck pad.
Medium tuttle and tracks.
So basically a shorter fatter version of the new wizard 114 (with medium Tuttle) with the same light wind efficiency. Feels as small as the wizard 90L in the air
Check out some of Gwarn's homemade short windfoil boards.
If you have deep enough cut-outs they could also be used as handles (crazy idea I'm sure).
Extra long foil and sail mast tracks. Footstrap positions both centerline and outboard.
Possibly a tuttle box which allows front and back adjustment? Would need a foil which mates perfectly with the top and possibly also a flange.
I actually next in line to get Tillo custom wind foil board, 176x80x120l, fat / sick nose, large bevels on sides, no cut out, i think those are stupid.
Hoping for more responsive ride, better wave riding. Will keep you posted. Fyi: just retrofitted Gong foil wings into custom fusilage+ Tillo carbon mast, so far results exceeded my expectations, my interest wave/swell riding mainly, but I do some course racing on foil too.
Well, I got a 200x80, 140 liter board in my van.
But, my 229x73 Hover feels smaller, uses smaller foils.
None other than Robbie himself says he prefers more length.
And my expert winger buds on 160x56, 45 liters, do nothing different than my 229 board.
Lack of length is nice, but not vital.
If you want to use a race foil with a small sail (6.0 or so) there is not a production board out there, that I know of, that will balance it. The wing is too far forward for the footstraps on any production board. With a small sail. If you put a 8.5 and and bigger sail on it, you will get enough mast base pressure to balance that far-forward wing. That's what the foil racers do.
I have a Moses race foil. When I use it with my freeride boards (or an old formula board) and 5.0-7.0 sails I have to stand in front of the footstraps. Yes, I could get out the router and mount new footstrap inserts further forward.
Absent the router idea, a solution is a custom board designed to use with a race foil and small sails. Sailworks will order one for you, built by Roberts. Bruce Peterson and some of his riders ride on these custom boards. You can see them out on the river foiling with Moses race foils and 6.0 Flyers FR. I am trying to emulate them (and am far behind in the skills department LOL).
Select to expand quotePhilUK said..Paducah said..
2. Beef up the nose. Use extra material up there. It won't prevent the inevitable but at least it won't be a common occurence. Also, the bottom of the nose a bit because I've had a couple of hits that didn't do in the top but the top was able to push down enough so that the bottom broke, separated away, so most of the skin damage was on the bottom. Maybe also use denser foam in the front 20cm?
Definitely that. Even experts crash.
I think a lot of boards could do with beefier noses.
Ditto, high density foam for the first 200mm with extra strong composite shell. My Alien 125 was repaired using this method after being damaged by the mast in the shore dump. No damage since despite multiple catapults
Select to expand quoteFaff said..
Full Eva deck even if the board is not meant for winging.
Ditto, there is nothing worse than grazing your knees and elbows on the non skid when climbing on to uphaul. I installed my own full eva deck on my Alien
Select to expand quotesegler said..
If you want to use a race foil with a small sail (6.0 or so) there is not a production board out there, that I know of, that will balance it. The wing is too far forward for the footstraps on any production board. With a small sail. If you put a 8.5 and and bigger sail on it, you will get enough mast base pressure to balance that far-forward wing. That's what the foil racers do.
I have a Moses race foil. When I use it with my freeride boards (or an old formula board) and 5.0-7.0 sails I have to stand in front of the footstraps. Yes, I could get out the router and mount new footstrap inserts further forward.
Absent the router idea, a solution is a custom board designed to use with a race foil and small sails. Sailworks will order one for you, built by Roberts. Bruce Peterson and some of his riders ride on these custom boards. You can see them out on the river foiling with Moses race foils and 6.0 Flyers FR. I am trying to emulate them (and am far behind in the skills department LOL).
Actually, Tillo production foil boards do a very good job balancing race foils and smaller sails. My is custom but similar in shape and I did test production ones. My biggest sail is 6.5 M2. There are many production race,free race foil boards that are pretty good, but for wave foiling nothing good out there in my opinion.
reef warrior has some interesting ideas, but he's boards are for hybrid usage windsurf, wing, sup foil
Can you put a different fuze to move foil back?
Or are you using Tuttle race foil with a fuze designed for tuttle box too far back for twin track??
Select to expand quoteCAN17 said..Mark _australia said..
What is needed in windsurf foil boards, for an accomplished user not a beginner?
Ideas that the factory boards are not considering?
For me after foiliing 3 years. Last two years on my favorite board; Slingshot wizard 105.
Short length around 5'5. Something in between a wizard 103(5') and a wizard 105(5'10).
Thicker in the tail(5.5"). New wizards are around 5". With the thicker profile. I imagine it could be somewhere close to the 110L range even though its 6" shorter.
About 70cm wide with chimed rails. Slightly more narrow then the old wizards but not at radical as the new ones.
More comfy deck pad.
Medium tuttle and tracks.
So basically a shorter fatter version of the new wizard 114 (with medium Tuttle) with the same light wind efficiency. Feels as small as the wizard 90L in the air
Check out some of Gwarn's homemade short windfoil boards.
Why a medium tuttle box? Medium tuttle masts will fit deep tuttle boxes, but not vice versa.
Select to expand quoteFaff said..CAN17 said..Mark _australia said..
What is needed in windsurf foil boards, for an accomplished user not a beginner?
Ideas that the factory boards are not considering?
For me after foiliing 3 years. Last two years on my favorite board; Slingshot wizard 105.
Short length around 5'5. Something in between a wizard 103(5') and a wizard 105(5'10).
Thicker in the tail(5.5"). New wizards are around 5". With the thicker profile. I imagine it could be somewhere close to the 110L range even though its 6" shorter.
About 70cm wide with chimed rails. Slightly more narrow then the old wizards but not at radical as the new ones.
More comfy deck pad.
Medium tuttle and tracks.
So basically a shorter fatter version of the new wizard 114 (with medium Tuttle) with the same light wind efficiency. Feels as small as the wizard 90L in the air
Check out some of Gwarn's homemade short windfoil boards.
Why a medium tuttle box? Medium tuttle masts will fit deep tuttle boxes, but not vice versa.
Always used medium Tuttle masts. Your right though would allow more foil options from other brands that use DT only.
Select to expand quotemiamiwindsurfe said..
I actually next in line to get Tillo custom wind foil board, 176x80x120l, fat / sick nose, large bevels on sides, no cut out, i think those are stupid.
Hoping for more responsive ride, better wave riding. Will keep you posted. Fyi: just retrofitted Gong foil wings into custom fusilage+ Tillo carbon mast, so far results exceeded my expectations, my interest wave/swell riding mainly, but I do some course racing on foil too.
Which Gong wings and tail are you using?
Select to expand quotesegler said..
If you want to use a race foil with a small sail (6.0 or so) there is not a production board out there, that I know of, that will balance it. The wing is too far forward for the footstraps on any production board. With a small sail. If you put a 8.5 and and bigger sail on it, you will get enough mast base pressure to balance that far-forward wing. That's what the foil racers do.
I have a Moses race foil. When I use it with my freeride boards (or an old formula board) and 5.0-7.0 sails I have to stand in front of the footstraps. Yes, I could get out the router and mount new footstrap inserts further forward.
Absent the router idea, a solution is a custom board designed to use with a race foil and small sails. Sailworks will order one for you, built by Roberts. Bruce Peterson and some of his riders ride on these custom boards. You can see them out on the river foiling with Moses race foils and 6.0 Flyers FR. I am trying to emulate them (and am far behind in the skills department LOL).
I have to disagree with this.
I'm am using a Patrik 91 foil board currently and often switch between 11m race sail with 1000 wing 115+ fuse down to a 5m race sail 550 wing 105+ fuse.
Never have to move foot straps, I just slide the mast base back a bit with the smaller sails.
Pretty easy to get a balanced setup with all sized fuselages.
It is pretty simple really if you don't over complicate it.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..miamiwindsurfe said..
I actually next in line to get Tillo custom wind foil board, 176x80x120l, fat / sick nose, large bevels on sides, no cut out, i think those are stupid.
Hoping for more responsive ride, better wave riding. Will keep you posted. Fyi: just retrofitted Gong foil wings into custom fusilage+ Tillo carbon mast, so far results exceeded my expectations, my interest wave/swell riding mainly, but I do some course racing on foil too.
Which Gong wings and tail are you using?
Curve xl-s 1500cm2 89cm
fluid m 900 cm2 71 cm
Veloce Lt 1350cm 90cm
Veloce stab small 225cm2 39cm
Rise stab small 229cm2 40cm
The key for wind foil is custom fusilage, with original was pain in ass but I had to try...
My thoughts
1. More impact resistant nose..use high density foam
a flat deck rather than a turned up nose, so that the load is spread over a larger area when the mast hits. The nose rocker purely under the board.
2. Full lightweight deck pad ....we uphaul these boards. Sometimes it's warm enough to sail without a wetsuit
3. Make the board easier to carry.
Handle underneath, wide enough for 3 fingers
Light quick dry foot straps rather than heavy water sponge, neoprene straps
4. For platemount foils
able to bolt the foil mount, straight through the board to make it stiffer
5. Offer plate and Tuttle box options on the same board.
6. Less crazy graphics, so when you have to repair it, you don't have to worry about matching some obscure colour, on a chart, no one in the shop has heard of.
7. Standard measurement systems on the board, so we can match Tuttle foils with the boards footstrap and mast track position, rather than just guessing if it'll work.
8. Longer mast track for more sailsize and tuning options
9. Sturdier construction, so that it doesn't de laminate after 20 sessions
10. Pre impregnated tint in the resin, rather than a paint finish - which chips as soon as it hits the beach.
Select to expand quoteRuddeBos said..
My thoughts
1. More impact resistant nose..use high density foam
a flat deck rather than a turned up nose, so that the load is spread over a larger area when the mast hits. The nose rocker purely under the board.
2. Full lightweight deck pad ....we uphaul these boards. Sometimes it's warm enough to sail without a wetsuit
3. Make the board easier to carry.
Handle underneath, wide enough for 3 fingers
Light quick dry foot straps rather than heavy water sponge, neoprene straps
4. For platemount foils
able to bolt the foil mount, straight through the board to make it stiffer
5. Offer plate and Tuttle box options on the same board.
6. Less crazy graphics, so when you have to repair it, you don't have to worry about matching some obscure colour, on a chart, no one in the shop has heard of.
7. Standard measurement systems on the board, so we can match Tuttle foils with the boards footstrap and mast track position, rather than just guessing if it'll work.
8. Longer mast track for more sailsize and tuning options
9. Sturdier construction, so that it doesn't de laminate after 20 sessions
10. Pre impregnated tint in the resin, rather than a paint finish - which chips as soon as it hits the beach.
All of these plus:
11. A new foot strap screw option so you don't have to over tighten them to stop them twisting, and they are easy to insert/remove if your using the board for different applications - wind or wing foiling. A 'kwik-lock' system or something that sounds equally gadgety but is easy to use.
12. Goretex breather valves not the old screw valves.
13. When you buy your $2800+ board it come with a 'free' perfect fitting board cover!!!! Tight arse board companies, how much would this really cost? Who doesn't want a perfect fitting board cover to protect their expensive new board?
Thanks guys.
Customer has already specified much of these. Handles, full EVA, stronger nose etc all doable.
Plate and tuttle= easy. But I'm loving the idea of plate bolts all the way thru, not hard to do but wondering if it truly would be stronger - two US boxes in PVC foam done right is pretty damn strong...
Geez it would be faster to set up though
Goretex, OMG no. Anyone who knows my opinion knows to not get me started ahahahaha
And $2800? Haha - nup. Much less than that
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
But I'm loving the idea of plate bolts all the way thru, not hard to do but wondering if it truly would be stronger - two US boxes in PVC foam done right is pretty damn strong...
If they just float on the core, they can end up tilting forward, since the foil torques the box forward. That can cause damage at the front, and even larger damages. Seems to happen quite a bit with lighter (SUP-type) builds.
So having a better connection to the top sandwich is important. A few plugs of pour foam to the top seem to work quite well, and are easy and quick to do.
