In another thread Grantmac said: "You should have almost all your weight on the front foot and mast base when foiling." I hear this a lot in the gorge, too. Foilers riding on Moses and LP stuff shim to increase the stab down angle and move their footstraps and sail mast base back to get this heavy front-footed effect.
I completely disagree.
The problem with this kind of balance is gusts. As soon as a gust hits and you get a bit more speed, the foil will instantly go up and breach. I hate that. I guess the gorge foilers are quick enough to compensate, but not most of us duffers.
Instead I shim for LESS stab down angle, and put the footstraps forward and sail mast base at the same 43" (from front fin bolt) to get a balanced feel between both feet, maybe even a little (but not a lot) back foot heavy. That way I control the lift rather than it controlling me. When a gust hits, it just goes forward without going up. When I want to push for more speed, all I have to do is angle the hip a bit forward or step the back foot a couple inches forward, and it all works and stays in control. No getting punched in the mouth with a sudden breach.
And yes, you have to get the board moving to at, or nearly at, planing speed FIRST before you lightly press the back foot to lift it into flight. Absolute control of pitch this way.
By the way, no less than Bruce Peterson agrees with me on this. We talk about this a lot. Just watch him foil. He goes from slow starting speed on the foil to blistering high speed with very little change in balance. He wrote: "My setups are all slightly forward biased to CL of the foil, such that if I back off (or panic) and weight my front foot, the foil immediately comes down. I have to purposely weight my back foot to get the foil up and stay trimmed level. This gives me an aft raked stance and is where 40 years of windsurfing muscle memory kick in. You cannot foil fast without a predisposition to down-trim, otherwise you're forever chasing the lift, trying to lean forward while holding the sail back."
I wonder.....
In both straps, most of my weight is on front foot.
But only front strap, back foot around 10" behind front foot, weight seems biased slightly to rear foot.
Gusts, weight shifts forward.
Select to expand quotesegler said..
In another thread Grantmac said: "You should have almost all your weight on the front foot and mast base when foiling." I hear this a lot in the gorge, too. Foilers riding on Moses and LP stuff shim to increase the stab down angle and move their footstraps and sail mast base back to get this heavy front-footed effect.
I completely disagree.
The problem with this kind of balance is gusts. As soon as a gust hits and you get a bit more speed, the foil will instantly go up and breach. I hate that. I guess the gorge foilers are quick enough to compensate, but not most of us duffers.
Instead I shim for LESS stab down angle, and put the footstraps forward and sail mast base at the same 43" (from front fin bolt) to get a balanced feel between both feet, maybe even a little (but not a lot) back foot heavy. That way I control the lift rather than it controlling me. When a gust hits, it just goes forward without going up. When I want to push for more speed, all I have to do is angle the hip a bit forward or step the back foot a couple inches forward, and it all works and stays in control. No getting punched in the mouth with a sudden breach.
And yes, you have to get the board moving to at, or nearly at, planing speed FIRST before you lightly press the back foot to lift it into flight. Absolute control of pitch this way.
By the way, no less than Bruce Peterson agrees with me on this. We talk about this a lot. Just watch him foil. He goes from slow starting speed on the foil to blistering high speed with very little change in balance. He wrote: "My setups are all slightly forward biased to CL of the foil, such that if I back off (or panic) and weight my front foot, the foil immediately comes down. I have to purposely weight my back foot to get the foil up and stay trimmed level. This gives me an aft raked stance and is where 40 years of windsurfing muscle memory kick in. You cannot foil fast without a predisposition to down-trim, otherwise you're forever chasing the lift, trying to lean forward while holding the sail back."
What is your flying gybe percentage and how long have you been foiling?
Select to expand quotesegler said..
In another thread Grantmac said: "You should have almost all your weight on the front foot and mast base when foiling." I hear this a lot in the gorge, too. Foilers riding on Moses and LP stuff shim to increase the stab down angle and move their footstraps and sail mast base back to get this heavy front-footed effect.
I completely disagree.
The problem with this kind of balance is gusts. As soon as a gust hits and you get a bit more speed, the foil will instantly go up and breach. I hate that. I guess the gorge foilers are quick enough to compensate, but not most of us duffers.
Instead I shim for LESS stab down angle, and put the footstraps forward and sail mast base at the same 43" (from front fin bolt) to get a balanced feel between both feet, maybe even a little (but not a lot) back foot heavy. That way I control the lift rather than it controlling me. When a gust hits, it just goes forward without going up. When I want to push for more speed, all I have to do is angle the hip a bit forward or step the back foot a couple inches forward, and it all works and stays in control. No getting punched in the mouth with a sudden breach.
And yes, you have to get the board moving to at, or nearly at, planing speed FIRST before you lightly press the back foot to lift it into flight. Absolute control of pitch this way.
By the way, no less than Bruce Peterson agrees with me on this. We talk about this a lot. Just watch him foil. He goes from slow starting speed on the foil to blistering high speed with very little change in balance. He wrote: "My setups are all slightly forward biased to CL of the foil, such that if I back off (or panic) and weight my front foot, the foil immediately comes down. I have to purposely weight my back foot to get the foil up and stay trimmed level. This gives me an aft raked stance and is where 40 years of windsurfing muscle memory kick in. You cannot foil fast without a predisposition to down-trim, otherwise you're forever chasing the lift, trying to lean forward while holding the sail back."
I think we're comparing two different types of foiling here(freerace vs freeride) that have different needs. Seems grantmac is more into maneuver oriented freeride foiling where having the wing loaded up for front foot pressure is needed. Since he is using small sails and not going planing speed before takeoff. Having a wing like the infinity 76 in B position is super sweet for wave riding with no shims. I've ridden foils that need moreback foot in waves it was a nightmare you can't control lift properly no matter how good you are. Trying to cut back at the bottom of a wave or trying to run up the back you need a bit of back foot pressure if your foil is already backfooted that's not going to work. Downwinding in waves I like to keep my weight forward and move my back foot(which is already in front of rear straps) forward depending on the wave. When a gust hits just point higher up wind. I can see this being a issue when your on loaded up foiling across the wind on big gear so negative shim makes sence but you still need the wings center of lift close to between your feet.
I've never tryed a foil setup for negative shim. Looks like the sail works guys are ripping on there freerace gear and getting good speed so I'm not saying it's better or worse just different foils for different discipline. You wouldn't take a jeep to a race track would you?
Select to expand quoteCAN17 said..segler said..
In another thread Grantmac said: "You should have almost all your weight on the front foot and mast base when foiling." I hear this a lot in the gorge, too. Foilers riding on Moses and LP stuff shim to increase the stab down angle and move their footstraps and sail mast base back to get this heavy front-footed effect.
I completely disagree.
The problem with this kind of balance is gusts. As soon as a gust hits and you get a bit more speed, the foil will instantly go up and breach. I hate that. I guess the gorge foilers are quick enough to compensate, but not most of us duffers.
Instead I shim for LESS stab down angle, and put the footstraps forward and sail mast base at the same 43" (from front fin bolt) to get a balanced feel between both feet, maybe even a little (but not a lot) back foot heavy. That way I control the lift rather than it controlling me. When a gust hits, it just goes forward without going up. When I want to push for more speed, all I have to do is angle the hip a bit forward or step the back foot a couple inches forward, and it all works and stays in control. No getting punched in the mouth with a sudden breach.
And yes, you have to get the board moving to at, or nearly at, planing speed FIRST before you lightly press the back foot to lift it into flight. Absolute control of pitch this way.
By the way, no less than Bruce Peterson agrees with me on this. We talk about this a lot. Just watch him foil. He goes from slow starting speed on the foil to blistering high speed with very little change in balance. He wrote: "My setups are all slightly forward biased to CL of the foil, such that if I back off (or panic) and weight my front foot, the foil immediately comes down. I have to purposely weight my back foot to get the foil up and stay trimmed level. This gives me an aft raked stance and is where 40 years of windsurfing muscle memory kick in. You cannot foil fast without a predisposition to down-trim, otherwise you're forever chasing the lift, trying to lean forward while holding the sail back."
I think we're comparing two different types of foiling here(freerace vs freeride) that have different needs. Seems grantmac is more into maneuver oriented freeride foiling where having the wing loaded up for front foot pressure is needed. Since he is using small sails and not going planing speed before takeoff. Having a wing like the infinity 76 in B position is super sweet for wave riding with no shims. I've ridden foils that need moreback foot in waves it was a nightmare you can't control lift properly no matter how good you are. Trying to cut back at the bottom of a wave or trying to run up the back you need a bit of back foot pressure if your foil is already backfooted that's not going to work. Downwinding in waves I like to keep my weight forward and move my back foot(which is already in front of rear straps) forward depending on the wave. When a gust hits just point higher up wind. I can see this being a issue when your on loaded up foiling across the wind on big gear so negative shim makes sence but you still need the wings center of lift close to between your feet.
I've never tryed a foil setup for negative shim. Looks like the sail works guys are ripping on there freerace gear and getting good speed so I'm not saying it's better or worse just different foils for different discipline. You wouldn't take a jeep to a race track would you?
I agree with this, but it might be just what I am used to. Without front foot bias I cannot make gybes, and I find it difficult to get on the foil in light air. Over foiling is a risk, but this can be solved but cranking up wind or if you front foot is fairly close to your mast foot (compact geometry) you can control over foiling pretty well
Completely agree with diagram above.
it describes the difference between my wife's Starboard freefoil 125 and my Starboard FoilX 125.
Using the same foil front wing and fuselage . ..Starboard 1100 freeride wing/ 95+ fuselage.
I use a 330 tw or 255 tw with -1 deg shim on the compact FoilX
my wife, the 500tw (freeride plus set up) with -0.5 deg shim on the standard geometry freefoil 125
The FoilX is front foot biased and manoeuvre orientated.
The freeride, rear foot biased and straight line orientated.
I dont think it has to do with style of foiling. If racing front foot power is your friend too, way more power upwind, and at those high speeds, hitting the water will 99% certain end in a crash. Im constantly fighting to keep the board up at all angles, hence take as much front foot power I can get. A big gust will cause you to get more upright / forward, causing the nose to dip. Overfoiling in gusts only really happens when your line positioning is off and you ride with a lot of backhand power.
Yeap. WOH, you already gave me a lot of info in another place. I really come to the conclusion that managing the gust is more a sail choice/tuning matter than foil triming. And my recent experimentation on winging only goes more that path. So for now, mast base to the aft and lower aspect sail (in strong gusty wind my naish chopper 4.2 is way more constant that my RRD vogue 4.0). But I beleive I still don't get all the subtilities of the outhaul triming and line settings.
Having a lot of front foot pressure makes it so much easier to go over big swell, chop.
Select to expand quote6u1d0 said..
Yeap. WOH, you already gave me a lot of info in another place. I really come to the conclusion that managing the gust is more a sail choice/tuning matter than foil triming. And my recent experimentation on winging only goes more that path. So for now, mast base to the aft and lower aspect sail (in strong gusty wind my naish chopper 4.2 is way more constant that my RRD vogue 4.0). But I beleive I still don't get all the subtilities of the outhaul triming and line settings.
Yes, after not realizing this for a while I started lowering the boom and giving a lot more outhaul (adjustable outhaul), even adjusting the outhaul in flight if the gusts picked up, and it made it a lot more manageable. A gust shouldn't be sending you to the moon.
I think if you are on a race type foil way hiked out with the sail angled over, it could anyway, but you could also tilt the board so that the gust forces the nose down.
Freeride foiling should have your sail properly downhauled. I've noticed when I don't have them rigged well it feels a bit off on the fin, and then switching the same rig to a foil board I immediately realize something is off. What is marginally rigged on a fin, and still sailable, is a nightmare on the foil.
Select to expand quoteaeroegnr said..
Yes, after not realizing this for a while I started lowering the boom and giving a lot more outhaul (adjustable outhaul), even adjusting the outhaul in flight if the gusts picked up, and it made it a lot more manageable. A gust shouldn't be sending you to the moon.
.
Well, usually, gust send my board down, and if I overreact I overfoil. So I set my boom higher. I feel it better to reduce sail effect during gust.
I just don't think there's a unique recipe, but rather a better understanding is required, and anyone must work on his own settings.
So far, outhaul setting effect on the sail balance is rather mystirious to me.
Select to expand quotesegler said..
In another thread Grantmac said: "You should have almost all your weight on the front foot and mast base when foiling."
It seems there has to be a difference between race and freeride setups with respect to the weight on the mast base. Foil racers in powered conditions often have their legs almost parallel to the water, indicating that most of their weight is in the harness and goes onto the mast base. For freeriding, especially with relatively small sails and in swell and, it is easy to sail completely unhooked with minimal sail power for long times. So in a race setup, only a small fraction of your weight (maybe 1/3rd) is on you feet. Even if that is evenly distributed between front and rear leg, Grantmac's criterium is still met, with > 80% of the weight on the mast base and the front foot.
On a freeride setup, in contrast, perhaps looking more closely is required. On a typical day, my freeride sessions are evenly divided in pinching upwind and then playing with the swell going back downwind. Others have posted tracks and videos showing the same thing. On the upwind leg, the sail is fully powered, so there's lots of mast foot pressure. On the downwind leg, the sail is quite light, with very little mast foot pressure. All things being equal, it seems there would need to be more weight on the front foot to compensate. In reality, the some weight shift forward is done my moving the back foot further forward. But at least with some of my foils and some swell conditions, I actually need to put the back foot further back when playing with swell to avoid the noise coming down when going down waves.
So overall, the setup depends not just on the whether you're on a "standard" or "compact" board, and a race of freeride setup, but also on the water state, and if you're playing with the swell, or just going back and forth. For those times when just going back and forth on flattish water on freeride gear, I definitely prefer a balanced stance. In swell, that's less of an issue, since there's a lot of weight shifting going on anyway.
Select to expand quoteBoston! said..
Great info, as usual, WOH. Can you please expand on the "line positioning" bit?
In my mind foiling is all a balance. You have 3 points of contact with the board which determine the foil height, the mastfoot and your feet. The sail trim determines the power on the mastfoot, the harnessline trim determine the distribution of power between the legs. If you're sailing with backhand power you'll weight your backleg to brace yourself to the force on your backhand, which in turn will make your board fly up in gusts. A stable sail and correctly positioned harnesslines are paramount to a foil flying level through gusts.
Select to expand quoteWhiteofHeart said..Boston! said..
Great info, as usual, WOH. Can you please expand on the "line positioning" bit?
In my mind foiling is all a balance. You have 3 points of contact with the board which determine the foil height, the mastfoot and your feet. The sail trim determines the power on the mastfoot, the harnessline trim determine the distribution of power between the legs. If you're sailing with backhand power you'll weight your backleg to brace yourself to the force on your backhand, which in turn will make your board fly up in gusts. A stable sail and correctly positioned harnesslines are paramount to a foil flying level through gusts.
What happens to backhand power in gusts if you add more outhaul?
Answer: 4 years, and I don't even try to jibe on the foil; I come down and do a windsurfing jibe. I do like to foil deep S-turns. On the downwind I can run my back foot forward of the straps.
Bruce Peterson: 5 years, back foot heavy, and never misses a jibe. Heck, he never even slows down through the jibe.
Thanks, everyone, for the discussion. I was hoping for this. Good information here.
Select to expand quote6u1d0 said..aeroegnr said..
Yes, after not realizing this for a while I started lowering the boom and giving a lot more outhaul (adjustable outhaul), even adjusting the outhaul in flight if the gusts picked up, and it made it a lot more manageable. A gust shouldn't be sending you to the moon.
.
Well, usually, gust send my board down, and if I overreact I overfoil. So I set my boom higher. I feel it better to reduce sail effect during gust.
I just don't think there's a unique recipe, but rather a better understanding is required, and anyone must work on his own settings.
So far, outhaul setting effect on the sail balance is rather mystirious to me.
Shift the mast base back and possibly add a little downhaul.
Select to expand quotethedoor said..WhiteofHeart said..Boston! said..
Great info, as usual, WOH. Can you please expand on the "line positioning" bit?
In my mind foiling is all a balance. You have 3 points of contact with the board which determine the foil height, the mastfoot and your feet. The sail trim determines the power on the mastfoot, the harnessline trim determine the distribution of power between the legs. If you're sailing with backhand power you'll weight your backleg to brace yourself to the force on your backhand, which in turn will make your board fly up in gusts. A stable sail and correctly positioned harnesslines are paramount to a foil flying level through gusts.
What happens to backhand power in gusts if you add more outhaul?
In my experience outhaul makes the sail a lot more stable to pressurepoint movement. So probably a lot better, but will require the lines to move back a cm or 2 too.
Moving the outhaul a few cm during flight doesn't seem to throw it too far out of balance. I was doing it yesterday a bit and it was within my normal kind of bodyweight trim on the IQFoil. I may have adjusted heading to the wind a little bit when I changed outhaul setting too, but I'm not sure.
But I was also moving the harness lines around the boom quite a bit (when not flying) as I changed to custom race lines that have a really quick to adjust cleat and no velcro attachment on the boom, just hoops, so you can shift the position almost immediately.
The outhaul adjustment increasing control of gusts made a bigger impact. At least in the conditions I'm used to, sail trim seems to absolutely dominate the stability of the entire setup. And dumping outhaul again to get going in a lull makes it very worth it. Freeride kit may benefit less, but I honestly haven't tried and haven't been on it in a while due to training goals.
Select to expand quoteaeroegnr said..
Moving the outhaul a few cm during flight doesn't seem to throw it too far out of balance. I was doing it yesterday a bit and it was within my normal kind of bodyweight trim on the IQFoil. I may have adjusted heading to the wind a little bit when I changed outhaul setting too, but I'm not sure.
But I was also moving the harness lines around the boom quite a bit (when not flying) as I changed to custom race lines that have a really quick to adjust cleat and no velcro attachment on the boom, just hoops, so you can shift the position almost immediately.
The outhaul adjustment increasing control of gusts made a bigger impact. At least in the conditions I'm used to, sail trim seems to absolutely dominate the stability of the entire setup. And dumping outhaul again to get going in a lull makes it very worth it. Freeride kit may benefit less, but I honestly haven't tried and haven't been on it in a while due to training goals.
What lines are those? I would love some that are easier to move around?
Select to expand quotethedoor said..aeroegnr said..
Moving the outhaul a few cm during flight doesn't seem to throw it too far out of balance. I was doing it yesterday a bit and it was within my normal kind of bodyweight trim on the IQFoil. I may have adjusted heading to the wind a little bit when I changed outhaul setting too, but I'm not sure.
But I was also moving the harness lines around the boom quite a bit (when not flying) as I changed to custom race lines that have a really quick to adjust cleat and no velcro attachment on the boom, just hoops, so you can shift the position almost immediately.
The outhaul adjustment increasing control of gusts made a bigger impact. At least in the conditions I'm used to, sail trim seems to absolutely dominate the stability of the entire setup. And dumping outhaul again to get going in a lull makes it very worth it. Freeride kit may benefit less, but I honestly haven't tried and haven't been on it in a while due to training goals.
What lines are those? I would love some that are easier to move around?
These lines. Note that they are LONG. Longer than any other lines I've bought.
Britt recommended them to me since a lot of the IQFoil guys are running them now.
www.nbwindsurfing.com/shop/Windsurf/Windsurf-Accessories/Windsurfing-Harness-Lines/p/Custom-Race-Harness-Lines-x53907325.htm#enhanced-option-row-78100380
Select to expand quoteaeroegnr said..thedoor said..aeroegnr said..
Moving the outhaul a few cm during flight doesn't seem to throw it too far out of balance. I was doing it yesterday a bit and it was within my normal kind of bodyweight trim on the IQFoil. I may have adjusted heading to the wind a little bit when I changed outhaul setting too, but I'm not sure.
But I was also moving the harness lines around the boom quite a bit (when not flying) as I changed to custom race lines that have a really quick to adjust cleat and no velcro attachment on the boom, just hoops, so you can shift the position almost immediately.
The outhaul adjustment increasing control of gusts made a bigger impact. At least in the conditions I'm used to, sail trim seems to absolutely dominate the stability of the entire setup. And dumping outhaul again to get going in a lull makes it very worth it. Freeride kit may benefit less, but I honestly haven't tried and haven't been on it in a while due to training goals.
What lines are those? I would love some that are easier to move around?
These lines. Note that they are LONG. Longer than any other lines I've bought.
Britt recommended them to me since a lot of the IQFoil guys are running them now.
www.nbwindsurfing.com/shop/Windsurf/Windsurf-Accessories/Windsurfing-Harness-Lines/p/Custom-Race-Harness-Lines-x53907325.htm#enhanced-option-row-78100380
Thanks, I like long lines. So they just slip over the boom but are easy to move cause they are not velcroed tight
Select to expand quotethedoor said..aeroegnr said..thedoor said..aeroegnr said..
Moving the outhaul a few cm during flight doesn't seem to throw it too far out of balance. I was doing it yesterday a bit and it was within my normal kind of bodyweight trim on the IQFoil. I may have adjusted heading to the wind a little bit when I changed outhaul setting too, but I'm not sure.
But I was also moving the harness lines around the boom quite a bit (when not flying) as I changed to custom race lines that have a really quick to adjust cleat and no velcro attachment on the boom, just hoops, so you can shift the position almost immediately.
The outhaul adjustment increasing control of gusts made a bigger impact. At least in the conditions I'm used to, sail trim seems to absolutely dominate the stability of the entire setup. And dumping outhaul again to get going in a lull makes it very worth it. Freeride kit may benefit less, but I honestly haven't tried and haven't been on it in a while due to training goals.
What lines are those? I would love some that are easier to move around?
These lines. Note that they are LONG. Longer than any other lines I've bought.
Britt recommended them to me since a lot of the IQFoil guys are running them now.
www.nbwindsurfing.com/shop/Windsurf/Windsurf-Accessories/Windsurfing-Harness-Lines/p/Custom-Race-Harness-Lines-x53907325.htm#enhanced-option-row-78100380
Thanks, I like long lines. So they just slip over the boom but are easy to move cause they are not velcroed tight
Right. I've got the the normal ones, not the monos. They move sometimes but are pretty easy to slip back into place and get the balance perfect.
Select to expand quoteaeroegnr said..
Moving the outhaul a few cm during flight doesn't seem to throw it too far out of balance. I was doing it yesterday a bit and it was within my normal kind of bodyweight trim on the IQFoil. I may have adjusted heading to the wind a little bit when I changed outhaul setting too, but I'm not sure.
But I was also moving the harness lines around the boom quite a bit (when not flying) as I changed to custom race lines that have a really quick to adjust cleat and no velcro attachment on the boom, just hoops, so you can shift the position almost immediately.
The outhaul adjustment increasing control of gusts made a bigger impact. At least in the conditions I'm used to, sail trim seems to absolutely dominate the stability of the entire setup. And dumping outhaul again to get going in a lull makes it very worth it. Freeride kit may benefit less, but I honestly haven't tried and haven't been on it in a while due to training goals.
In racing we call it "changing gears" when you are adjusting the outhaul while flying. If you have plenty of breeze you flatten out the sail as much as possible, and when you come into a lighter section, you dump a bit of outhaul to power up the sail to stay on the foil through the lull.
