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A bunch of Fuerteventura thoughts (pending the last elimination)

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Created by Awalkspoiled > 9 months ago, 31 Jul 2023
Awalkspoiled
WA, 531 posts
31 Jul 2023 10:34PM
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Not that I'm any kind of an expert, just an enthusiast. First of all - insanely good coverage of the slalom from start to finish. Great camerawork, great commentary from Ben and his guests, fun interviews and to begin with the smooth event organization made that coverage possible.

Goyard still has an edge in both equipment and technique. There's a sixth gear he can find, apparently at will. I was trying to figure out why it looked familiar and I think it reminds me of the time in formula finning where the super-soft-tipped fins came around, and if you weren't on a Kashy, you couldn't catch someone who was. I wonder if his gear has something similar going on - some combination of longitudinal flex and torsional stiffness perhaps, that the other guys don't have yet.

He has an extra half knot board speed advantage over even the fastest other foilers, so he can afford, for the time being, to be tactically less demanding because he knows he can hit the first mark in sixth and still win. He was really favored but the longer course on day 3. He rides more upright, but still with more heel to windward, without locking out the way some of the other guys do. He seems to achieve that heel without having to use his bodyweight or raking the sail over - possibly because he's on such a tiny wing. This seems to mean he can afford to touch down oftener and harder without blowing up, than the Marottis and Iachinos and Rutkowskis can. If they touch down as hard as he does they don't skip off, they just explode. He also can pick his jibe line to take advantage of others' weaknesses.

Neil Pryde sent their guys out with a noncompetitive setup. The sails are really fast but the smallest foil they brought was too lifty so they were blowing up big time at top speed, and struggling with jibes too. Marotti broke three of his four booms and was stuck foiling last day on a 5.1 when he would have preferred to be finning but he had no usable fin gear left.

Nico Prien in particular never seemed really comfortable, especially jibing. He was really reaching with his upper body to maintain mastbase pressure which made me wonder if he didn't have a sufficiently forward position for his front strap. A smaller foil might have helped I suppose but he's usually very elegant - body and shins parallel - just not this week.

Some of the guys - Rutkowski for sure, Martini (an absolute HORSE), kind of hotheaded themselves out of the competition. Bad luck for Soe in the 11th elimination.

Gaastra fin sails were excellent, foil sails noncompetitive. Very disappointing event for Duotone altogether, and really for Severne also. I was hoping someone would be on the new North stuff, but no.

Cedric Bord pointed out that the foils are so small that they actually can't foil in 10 anymore on the gear they've registered. He's worried that the sport will once again become so elite that the entry-level sailors won't grow the sport. He also said that the retail balance is still toward finning, especially with older riders. I don't see that myself, at least not on the west coast of Florida, where older sailors are definitely moving toward foil just because ToW is so much better, and the physicality is less demanding. In Florida, the threat to the sport isn't small windfoil gear, it's Wingdings.

Foils dominated but fins are still competitive at very high wind strengths, and even at lower wind strengths at everything below the absolute elite, heavyweight level. Sarah-Quita was winning against the best foilers, even on full-time fin. For amateur, beer-league racing, I bet the fastest finners are going to be beating the fastest foilers for a while yet, except in like 8-14. But for excitement, the foil races stood out, even compared with the day four high-wind events.

That thirteen-year old is a future star, obviously - skilled and charming and having fun with the sport.

I'll be interested to see what happens after Marseille when all the IQ women can afford to switch to PWA gear. The Israeli and French teams in particular seem to have a LOT of talent.

aeroegnr
1731 posts
31 Jul 2023 11:09PM
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Thank you, great writeup and thoughts. I haven't been able to watch any of the races yet.

Guru4
42 posts
31 Jul 2023 11:23PM
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Great event. Goyard really was on another level compared to the other foilers and fins even in crazy conditions. Lots of huge crashes and broken gear both on the fin and foil.

boardsurfr
WA, 2454 posts
31 Jul 2023 11:55PM
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Awalkspoiled said..
Goyard still has an edge in both equipment and technique.



I think his equipment plays a huge role. He works very closely with his foil developer, and is once again on the smallest front wing. It was the same story a couple of years back in Israel, when he dominated the competition. His foils then were about 50% larger than now (in less wind), but smaller than what everyone else was on. It's not just the foil, he's probably also using the titanium fuse they said was essential to break 40 knots. Interesting to see that the back wing (170) has not shrunk as much as the front wing. Johan Soe on the second place probably benefits from the larger foils being more suited for his 110 kg.

It was quite interesting to see him have lots of bad starts, and then round up everyone from behind with higher top speed on the straights. Did not work in the first elimination today against Mortefon, who was flying on the fin. But then, the second place was good enough to extend his lead over the next 4 riders in the event ranking, so why risk a crash?

WsurfAustin
651 posts
1 Aug 2023 8:09AM
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From what I can tell, it looks like the longest mast they use is 95cm. Class rules ?. Going that fast in swell that huge is crazy sketchy. They were all clipping waves. Seems like a longer mast would give a little more room for error. Either way crazy skills and huge balls. A great watch. Women's had some very close finishes. All very exciting to watch.

Hydrosurf
258 posts
1 Aug 2023 9:52AM
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Long mast


tonyk
QLD, 595 posts
1 Aug 2023 12:59PM
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WsurfAustin said..
From what I can tell, it looks like the longest mast they use is 95cm. Class rules ?. Going that fast in swell that huge is crazy sketchy. They were all clipping waves. Seems like a longer mast would give a little more room for error. Either way crazy skills and huge balls. A great watch. Women's had some very close finishes. All very exciting to watch.



Amazing skills shown by all riders
FYI: The runner up Johan Soe registered a F4 101cm Mast for the 2023 PWA season

thedoor
2469 posts
2 Aug 2023 12:43AM
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Amazing, coverage. Seems to me that the gear would prefer there was a windlimit for foils, my guess is that the riders would probably appreciate that too by the look of some of those crashes. Nothing quite like a foil crash at 22 knots, cant imagine what it feels like at 32 knots.

Maybe over 25 knots fin only, below that ride what ever you want?

skyking1231
148 posts
2 Aug 2023 8:18PM
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I still dont like the mixing of fin and foil. its like racing skiing and snowboarding together.

mr love
VIC, 2401 posts
2 Aug 2023 10:38PM
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The masts have super thin chord thicknesses.....if they go longer than around 95 they are not stiff enough

WsurfAustin
651 posts
2 Aug 2023 8:38PM
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tonyk said..

WsurfAustin said..
From what I can tell, it looks like the longest mast they use is 95cm. Class rules ?. Going that fast in swell that huge is crazy sketchy. They were all clipping waves. Seems like a longer mast would give a little more room for error. Either way crazy skills and huge balls. A great watch. Women's had some very close finishes. All very exciting to watch.




Amazing skills shown by all riders
FYI: The runner up Johan Soe registered a F4 101cm Mast for the 2023 PWA season


Ahh, thanks. I'm not up to speed on how they register gear.

DarrylG
WA, 503 posts
3 Aug 2023 3:09PM
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Longer masts are also slower.
The drag from the foils, fuse and mast pulls the nose of the board down. This is balanced with rear stabiliser. There is more leverage on a longer mast so would require more rear stab angle to balance out which equals more drag.

WsurfAustin
651 posts
3 Aug 2023 10:51PM
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DarrylG said..
Longer masts are also slower.
The drag from the foils, fuse and mast pulls the nose of the board down. This is balanced with rear stabiliser. There is more leverage on a longer mast so would require more rear stab angle to balance out which equals more drag.


True in the sense that more surface area = more drag. Flying higher (as high as you dare}, reduces surface area. Clipping waves also slows you down, so tradeoffs either way I guess.

regal1
NSW, 445 posts
4 Aug 2023 12:43PM
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nor.pwaworldtour.com/Fuerte_2023_Equipment.htm

FormuIa
105 posts
4 Aug 2023 2:53PM
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They can only have two front wings? But six sails? What an odd combo.

I would expect a minimum of three front three wings, eg. light, medium, and strong wind.

racerX
463 posts
4 Aug 2023 6:28PM
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FormuIa said..
They can only have two front wings? But six sails? What an odd combo.

I would expect a minimum of three front three wings, eg. light, medium, and strong wind.


It was an attempt to limit the foil to light wind. X number of foil sails Y number of fin sails, It hasn't worked, which many knew already, which was probably how they got it through...

I understand the riders will discuss/decide where it goes from here in Sylt. But IMHO it is unlikely to stay as it is.

If the pwa Slalom is a foil tour as it is now, they should stop the pretense, or come up with some effective restrictions instead of pretend ones.

bel29
388 posts
4 Aug 2023 9:23PM
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Nico only did Fuerte so had the luxury of being able to register based on those conditions, not those on the whole tour. That said, he sailed brilliantly - although not faultlessly (luckily, for the spectator!)

No class rule against registering a mast longer than 95 (in fact F4 is 97) I think, but the thinner and narrower chord masts being used nowadays are much harder to make super stiff the longer they get, hence most of them staying at or around 95.
Hard to say whether one particular brand has an absolute edge just based on the Fuerte results. Yes, Phantom did very well, but so did Enrico in Pozo. And overall the Z riders haven't said their last word yet. There is also still personal progression; check eg one of Nico's vids where he says that he improved his 2sec pb on foil several times as the racing went on.
Still, plenty of rumblings about fil v foil long-term viability. Almost certain that we'll see more changes to the rules next year, in an effort to save both.

FormuIa
105 posts
4 Aug 2023 9:42PM
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It's funny, foil has proven to be faster around the course in virtually all scenarios. And more importantly, it allows racing in lighter winds, which opens up more location options.

Everyone* thought fin will still dominate in high winds or high chop/waves, which is now an exception. And they want to artificially limit foil in favor of keeping the fin racing alive. We're talking world class-professional riders who now have to make compromises in terms of front wing selection for the whole season. This is odd, you have the weapon to be the fastest around the course, but cannot use it to its full potential (because of just two wings instead of three or four). Either you'll be underpowered in light conditions, or absolutely f****** in strong winds with 550 as the smallest wing.

What are the benefits of keeping the fin racing at the highest level on life support by intentionally hampering foil? Trickle-down effect for recreational riders? Companies hoping to squeeze a little bit of extra money in slalom fin sales? How many recreational riders on slalom fin gear do you see on local spots when it's blasting 25-35 knots in the open aka "ThE pRiMe TiMe FiN-wiLL-dEsTrOy-Foil CoNdItIoNs" ... not many :)

* apart from the man and his team that recently broke the 40 knot foil barrier, Goyard & Phantom.

Dishpet
105 posts
4 Aug 2023 9:54PM
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Goyard is balancing his time between IQ and PWA but coming to Fuerte with the small gear was a sort of message from Alex Udin and Goyard to the PWA committee. Phantom threatened to boycott the PWA over the front wing number limitation and this event was a sort of show of power.

As much as it was fun watching the event I got a feeling the riders were frustrated, the rules boxed them into this situation. Go on a fin have fun and lose or go on a foil knowing you're in kamikaze mode. Just watch the beach interviews during racing, not many smiles.

PhilUK
1098 posts
4 Aug 2023 10:08PM
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FormuIa said..


What are the benefits of keeping the fin racing at the highest level on life support by intentionally hampering foil? Trickle-down effect for recreational riders? Companies hoping to squeeze a little bit of extra money in slalom fin sales? How many recreational riders on slalom fin gear do you see on local spots when it's blasting 25-35 knots in the open aka "ThE pRiMe TiMe FiN-wiLL-dEsTrOy-Foil CoNdItIoNs" ... not many :)




I guess it depends on your local spot. 5 fin blasters at my local spot 02/08/2023 when it was proper windy, 24 knots+. In 12-15 knots, it would be 4 of those plus me (on foils).

www.gps-speedsurfing.com/?mnu=forum&forum=2&val=201226

A total of 8 sessions were posted on the foil website on 02/08/2023

www.gps-foilsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=latestsessions

On the GPS-speedsailing website, fin sailors outnumber foil by 8 to 1, if you count fin sailors speed > 30 knots and foil > 25 knots this year.

PhilUK
1098 posts
4 Aug 2023 10:23PM
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bel29 said..
Hard to say whether one particular brand has an absolute edge just based on the Fuerte results. Yes, Phantom did very well, but so did Enrico in Pozo. And overall the Z riders haven't said their last word yet.


The foil is only part of the setup, but from the overall rankings after 3 events, foil brands;
Mens top 10
Z-Fins 1, 3, 5
Phantom 2
NP 4, 6, 8
Patrik 7, 9
F4 10

Womens top 5
Z-Fins 1
Phantom 2
Loke 3
F4 4, 5


thedoor
2469 posts
5 Aug 2023 12:19AM
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Dishpet said..
Goyard is balancing his time between IQ and PWA but coming to Fuerte with the small gear was a sort of message from Alex Udin and Goyard to the PWA committee. Phantom threatened to boycott the PWA over the front wing number limitation and this event was a sort of show of power.

As much as it was fun watching the event I got a feeling the riders were frustrated, the rules boxed them into this situation. Go on a fin have fun and lose or go on a foil knowing you're in kamikaze mode. Just watch the beach interviews during racing, not many smiles.


Kamikaze mode is a good way of putting it

FormuIa
105 posts
5 Aug 2023 2:38AM
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Dishpet said..
Goyard is balancing his time between IQ and PWA but coming to Fuerte with the small gear was a sort of message from Alex Udin and Goyard to the PWA committee. Phantom threatened to boycott the PWA over the front wing number limitation and this event was a sort of show of power.

As much as it was fun watching the event I got a feeling the riders were frustrated, the rules boxed them into this situation. Go on a fin have fun and lose or go on a foil knowing you're in kamikaze mode. Just watch the beach interviews during racing, not many smiles.


Great info. And it's sort of proof that current rules are more like limitations that inhibit foil, and as a result, racers themselves. Luckily there were no serious injuries AFAIK? I'd love to see Marotti and others on a proper small wing ~350-370 cm2.

Also in formula foil rules say that "1 foil" has max. 2 front wings... But there is a difference. It's easier to ride VMG course race style with overpowered setup than crosswind full speed.

PhilUK
1098 posts
5 Aug 2023 5:03PM
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Of course Phantom want less restrictive foil equipment rules, they only make foil kit.

The thing about foils is they are developing really fast. They have to agree and publish the rules well in advance to give the brands time to adapt. Things changed fast last year. For 2024, in June 2022 they were talking of just 4 sails, 2 boards, 3 front wings. www.windsurfjournal.com/article,news,new-on-the-pwa-tour-in-2024,9423,en
I'd say that isnt enough equipment to cope with 7-10 knots in light wind venues through to 25-30 knots Sotavento. IQ-foil is just 1 set of kit, but they all have to use it. At Sotavento Goyard was at an advantage as he picked small kit. I dont think you want a scenario where whoever happens to pick the 'correct kit' dominates the event.

December 2022 it was refined to 3 boards (2 must be fin) 6 sails, 1 mast, 2 front wings, 2 fuselages and 2 back wings. I cant see Phantom being happy with that. Will they change the rules again (have they already)?
surf-forum.com/forum/thread/26741-pwa-2023-und-2024-und-iwt-tour/

I think this years regulations, but adding 1 front wing for 3, free choice of board, would be better, and have an open class with fin & foil sub-classes. A few tweaks to the heat format, or a separate fin elimination. But is it too late to change the regulations again?

Its a pity they dont keep their website up to date with the latest rules and regs.

The PWA board and committee members seem to know what they are about, there are no people on the lists who have little to do with the sport who you wonder about.

FormuIa
105 posts
5 Aug 2023 7:48PM
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Again, funny: IQ foil has such a clever format that they can indeed race with one single setup from 7 to 25-30 knots. Slalom in light wind, course race or marathon above 10 knots steady average, and survival mode over 25 knots :) Level playing field and an easier entry barrier for young surfers.

PWA is fixated on downwind slalom. Fine. But this needs multiple times more gear. The entry barrier is significantly higher, in fact, so high, that one single extra front wing (or two) wouldn't make a massive difference IMHO.

I agree with you on many points, winning a race should be a question of predominatly skill, not gambling with equipment registration.

With PWA and for example Formula Windsurfing association I have to respectfully disagree with them on some equipment choices and directions. Eg. they could start experimenting with hydrofoils more than 10 years ago. We sent them proposals and tech drawings back in 2010 (!), but they weren't open to any of the improvements.

Certain manufacturers were even opposed to the idea of wide foil boards, saying that "The Formula will be too big in the air" and foil will "not work better than a Formula on a Formula race, and is not the target.", and cherry on top, "it will not work on the Formula! WE HAVE TEST on 75cm 140 liters boards, it was just too big and NO CONTROL!"

I'm just waiting for arrival of more performance wings (hard/fixed, whatever), because a few selected fast locals are faster on a wingfoil than guys on a slalom windfoil :)

PhilUK
1098 posts
5 Aug 2023 9:12PM
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FormuIa said..
Again, funny: IQ foil has such a clever format that they can indeed race with one single setup from 7 to 25-30 knots. Slalom in light wind, course race or marathon above 10 knots steady average, and survival mode over 25 knots :) Level playing field and an easier entry barrier for young surfers.

PWA is fixated on downwind slalom. Fine. But this needs multiple times more gear. The entry barrier is significantly higher, in fact, so high, that one single extra front wing (or two) wouldn't make a massive difference IMHO.


Nobody I know goes for a windsurf blast on a 9m, large board, in 25+ knots, whatever course they choose to sail.

I think the PWA tries to reflect what the general public do, so the brands can promote their kit.

For flat water blasting in the past I used freerace sails & slalom boards, 9m & 125l/80cm wide for light winds, 6.5m/7.6m & 110/66cm for medium winds, and 5.6/6.5m 80l/54cm for stronger winds. Plus wave kit.

For flat water blasting I now use 2 cam, no cam, b&j sails. 6.5/7.5/8.5 on a foil board, 6.5/7,5m on 119l/71cm freerace, 4.5/5.2/6m on 94l/61cm. Most of the flat water blasters where I sail who use slalom kit are getting foil boards for the lighter winds.

I guess people's perception of what the public do varies a lot from spot to spot, as conditions vary so much. Although there doesnt seem to be a PWA competition for mincing around in the shorebreak on wing kit

boardsurfr
WA, 2454 posts
5 Aug 2023 11:51PM
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The PWA represents an interesting mix of pro windsurfers and manufacturers, which creates some conflict when making rules. Most manufacturers would love to see lots of gear choices allowed; many sailors who have to travel with the gear want it limited, especially of they are not in the top 10 and therefore not fully supported by sponsors.

For the manufacturers, adding foiling was certainly done in the hope of developing a significant windfoil market. But is that still realistic? On Cape Cod, almost everyone who started windfoiling has switched mostly or completely to winging. Is it similar at other places?

The few guys who can still be seen windfoiling locally are not interested in racing or chasing top speed. I don't recall a single windfoil race happening anywhere close, but there are regular wing races, both informal and "organized".

From a spectator's perspective, I love the mixed PWA races. I thought many races in Pozo and Fuerte were more interesting that in previous years, when they were mostly or completely fin races. But whether the mixed races still make sense a manufacturer's perspective is a different question.

aeroegnr
1731 posts
6 Aug 2023 1:02AM
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PhilUK said..

FormuIa said..
Again, funny: IQ foil has such a clever format that they can indeed race with one single setup from 7 to 25-30 knots. Slalom in light wind, course race or marathon above 10 knots steady average, and survival mode over 25 knots :) Level playing field and an easier entry barrier for young surfers.

PWA is fixated on downwind slalom. Fine. But this needs multiple times more gear. The entry barrier is significantly higher, in fact, so high, that one single extra front wing (or two) wouldn't make a massive difference IMHO.



Nobody I know goes for a windsurf blast on a 9m, large board, in 25+ knots, whatever course they choose to sail.

I think the PWA tries to reflect what the general public do, so the brands can promote their kit.

For flat water blasting in the past I used freerace sails & slalom boards, 9m & 125l/80cm wide for light winds, 6.5m/7.6m & 110/66cm for medium winds, and 5.6/6.5m 80l/54cm for stronger winds. Plus wave kit.

For flat water blasting I now use 2 cam, no cam, b&j sails. 6.5/7.5/8.5 on a foil board, 6.5/7,5m on 119l/71cm freerace, 4.5/5.2/6m on 94l/61cm. Most of the flat water blasters where I sail who use slalom kit are getting foil boards for the lighter winds.

I guess people's perception of what the public do varies a lot from spot to spot, as conditions vary so much. Although there doesnt seem to be a PWA competition for mincing around in the shorebreak on wing kit


I can deal with the 9.0 in up to 20kts on the IQFoil setup without dropping the clew attachment to the lower one. I'm not super skilled and not that fast, but I did try the 9.0 in the same conditions on that board with a fin and I was way more comfortable on a foil than the fin. Part was the impact in the chop, part was the force for finning was so much stronger. On the foil it was easier to pull outhaul and shoot upwind or drop it and calmly zoom downwind without too much drama. And jibes with the 9.0 in those conditions, without big swells, were pretty easy due to apparent wind dropping to almost zero in the downwind portion. This is when guys that weigh about 10-15kg are easily on freeride foil gear and 4.4 uncammed sails.

I can't speak for 20kts+ as I would rather be on a fin at that point and maybe I'm just not a hardcore IQFoiler like that.

FormuIa
105 posts
6 Aug 2023 4:11AM
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aeroegnr said..
I can deal with the 9.0 in up to 20kts on the IQFoil setup without dropping the clew attachment to the lower one. I'm not super skilled and not that fast, but I did try the 9.0 in the same conditions on that board with a fin and I was way more comfortable on a foil than the fin. Part was the impact in the chop, part was the force for finning was so much stronger. On the foil it was easier to pull outhaul and shoot upwind or drop it and calmly zoom downwind without too much drama. And jibes with the 9.0 in those conditions, without big swells, were pretty easy due to apparent wind dropping to almost zero in the downwind portion. This is when guys that weigh about 10-15kg are easily on freeride foil gear and 4.4 uncammed sails.

I can't speak for 20kts+ as I would rather be on a fin at that point and maybe I'm just not a hardcore IQFoiler like that.


My thoughts exactly. Formula windsurfing was brutal with 9.0 sail in 25+ knots, especially on downwind. Foiling is a notch easier due to the smoothness of the foil, and going downwind you can easily ride super deep and unhooked, but crashes are usually more severe. And this is from a recreational light rider, not a heavyweight pro foiler.

PWA downwind slalom (or any crosswind race) is basically what 95 % of surfers do most often. Back & forth riding. As soon as the wind picks up, it becomes much harder to ride on a too-big gear, as opposed to an upwind-downwind course (or just up-down freeriding). As a result, you need more gear than on the course race format.

In any case, it's super exciting to see that Goyard is (still!) kicking their a** on what's literally the fin home turf :)



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"A bunch of Fuerteventura thoughts (pending the last elimination)" started by Awalkspoiled