Hi all,
just wondering if there are any views on board widths and perhaps what each is better at. For example does a narrower board of 29" tend to yaw more on paddle stroke than a wider one? Do wider boards catch waves easier than narrower ones?
I have just jumped off a carbon 29" board labelled as a performance shape for surfing, 9ft by 127 litres. Whilst it surfed ok its performance markedly declined in anything other than perfect waves. I now look for a single board compromise solution and so have narrowed it down to a Sunova 8"10 speed or the Waterborne 7"11 evoke. Both appear to be well supported and credentialed, but which is the best all rounder? I have a one board quiver and use it in the surf and for flat water from time to time, so which would make the best sense within those criteria?
I personally don't believe in one-board quivers. Or Yeti's.
In my opinion, if you are after a one-board quiver, my choice out of those two options would be the Speeed. I own the Speeed, but not the Waterborne, but I do have a 7'10" Minion would would be comparable.
The longer board will have less yaw - it will track better. The narrower board (29" versus 32") will be more tippy (side-to-side.) The shorter board (7'10" versus 8'10") will be more tippy end-to-end.
It is always helpful to know your height, weight, experience, and intended use. But if you are already on a 9' x 29" 127 litre board then you may not notice a huge difference going to the speeed. Maybe you should be looking at something with more width for those less than perfect days. I have an 8'8" x 32" Hokua for that.
But the speeed will work well in the surf and is better on flat water than the shorter Waterborne. It will have more glide, better tracking, greater stability, and is an all round fun board!
Here would be my thoughts. I have been riding a Sunova Speeed 8'10 for a month now and am starting to get it dialed in. Have not ridden a Waterborne, so I am basing my opinion on other boards that I have ridden.
First, yaw is largely a factor of length, not width. Since yaw happens in the longitudinal plane (along the length of the board), the more length a board has, the more that it wants to track and thereby avoid yaw issues. As far as yaw problems, I think that the Speeed would be better.
I think that rail outline also affects yaw; the straighter the rail outline, the more a board wants to track. By my understanding, the shorter and wider the board (like the Evoke), the more it wants to turn (yaw when paddling) and the less it wants to track. Longer and narrower (like the Speeed), wants to track more both in paddling and on the wave. Between the two boards that I ride regularly, my 8'10" X 29" Speeed has less yaw issues than my wider 8'11"X 31" Fanatic which has much more curve along the whole rail outline.
Yes wider boards will catch waves earlier, but that assumption only holds true if the lengths and rocker are similar. Wider boards have float and planing area under foot, which helps them to catch waves, but catching waves early has more to do with glide, and this is where longer boards help. Also, even though the Evoke has much more width at the center, I would bet that the Speeed has much more width up at the nose, which can make a huge difference in glide and catching waves. If you jump forward onto the wide nose of the Speeed when paddling for a wave, it will catch anything easily. (Even though the Speeed has a very wide nose, the nose is also very thin, so there is not much swing weight up there to inhibit turning.) As far as catching waves, I think that the Speeed would be better.
You mentioned flat water; I think that because of both the yaw issue and the glide, the Speeed would be better.
One of the biggest differences that width creates is in speed. Wide boards plane up early, but narrower boards can attain higher top end speeds. I think that the narrower Speeed would win in the top speed category, which may help in the lesser quality waves you were talking about.
Now for what I would bet is the big advantage of the Evoke. Being shorter, and also because the center width makes for a much curvier rail outline, I am betting that the Evoke is much looser on the wave, and will turn tightly off almost any place along the rail. The Speeed will turn great, but most of the curve in the rail outline is back by the fins and stomp pad, so thats where your rear foot needs to be if you are looking for tight turns. Most of the rail outline on the Speeed is fairly straight which helps tracking and speed, but you are not going to get much of a turn if your rear foot is not all the way back. To get tight turns, the Speeed needs to be surfed like a longboard turning from the tail with lots of footwork up and down the board for trim, whereas I would expect that the Evoke will surf more like a shortboard, and you could just plant your feet and rip up the wave with very tight turns. If you are looking for a short board feel on the wave, I think that the much shorter and wider Evoke would be better.
I think that both boards are great choices, just weight your priorities.
Thanks both for your input. It confirms my thoughts on design generally. For the record Can't sup enough I am pretty light; 65-70kg. Been stand up surfing all my life and sup surfing about three due to shoulder injury. I am only intermediate standard despite the years in the water.
I cannot try either of these boards in my area, hence the questions. Evoke also have an 8'10" that would be worth considering. I am leaning toward the speed as the wider nose really makes sense to me on a sup from a design sense and I don't mind moving my feet around on the board.
Wider is slower to paddle
It adds a tad more row, because the paddle blade is farther out. But the outline shape is much more important: straight rails paddle straight.
Wider is slower to go rail to rail
It also means wider is slower to react to chop and inbalance. Especially as you grow older, you need width as your reaction time lengthen
Wider provides more leverage to push against, allowing for more power surfing in weak conditions
Wider planes earlier on weaker conditions, but can make you lose control in chop at speed.
My advice is that you need to go narrow enough so that the board does not prevent you from doing what you want to do (and can do) on a wave. No need to go too narrow if you do not have the reflexes to actually make use of the quicker rail-to-rall possibilities of the board: a narrow board does not makes you turn faster: it only allows you to turn faster... if you can in the first place.
Select to expand quoteDack said..
Thanks both for your input. It confirms my thoughts on design generally. For the record Can't sup enough I am pretty light; 65-70kg. Been stand up surfing all my life and sup surfing about three due to shoulder injury. I am only intermediate standard despite the years in the water.
I cannot try either of these boards in my area, hence the questions. Evoke also have an 8'10" that would be worth considering. I am leaning toward the speed as the wider nose really makes sense to me on a sup from a design sense and I don't mind moving my feet around on the board.
There is a great video on the forum where Bert Burger explains the design of the Speeed - worth watching. As Obijohn and Colas said, the shape of the speeed has certain advantages (more surface area in the water and thus more stable, nice straight lines so it yaws less), but as also mentioned, it surfs more like a mal - you really do need to get your back foot over the fins to turn it. It turns nicely, but it does not turn like my Hokua, for example, that has the more traditional pumpkin-seed shape. At 70 kg (I am 85-90 kg) you should be pretty stable on the 8'10" speeed (although height plays a factor - I am 6'3" - so if you are shorter then it will be even more stable).
I just looked up the Evoke. At 32" wide and 131 litres it may have similar stability to the Speeed. My guess it will surf more like a traditional surfboard - but you should wait for an Evoke owner to comment.
"Does a narrower board of 29" tend to yaw more on paddle stroke than a wider one? No, the opposite is generally true. By the looks of the 7'11" Evoke, that thing's going to yaw all over the place compared to the 8'10" Speeed. More curve in the rail means more turn.
"Do wider boards catch waves easier than narrower ones?" Depends... Narrower is faster, but wider planes sooner, but it really depends on the design, the volume, the rider and the waves. No contest here, the 8'10" Speeed is going to smoke the Evoke. Short, curvy and turny = slow. Speeed = Speedy. The narrow parallel rail design with the wide nose and full concave tracks and paddles surprisingly well (for length and volume).
More to the point; if you're really close that 65kg, the 8'10" is way to big to surf on unless you're only interested in a logger kind of experience. Speeed-wise you should be looking at the 8'5" at least and maybe the 8'2". I'm 73kg on the 8'5" and it's definitely not a flatwater cruiser. If your stuck on the 8'10", you should consider the 9'6" Style, the lower volume will surf better and the length will balance out the narrow width.
Whilst over on the East Coast recently I popped into Surfboard Warehouse to have a look at the Evoke 7/11 to see what they look like in the flesh. Mostly riding Naish 8/3 X32 over the past two years but ready for a change. Anyways long story short I walked out the door with a carbon version and even scored a discount during the annual sale. The shape is quite interesting and certainly doesn’t feel like a 32” wide board, in fact I had to get a tape measure out to check as I was convinced it was narrower. I think the illusion is because of the wider nose compared to the Naish so it kind of looks better proportionally. On the tail there are two subtle wingers which bring in the tail width nicely and the tail is thinned out on the rail quite considerably. On the water she feels “slightly” less stable than the X32 but not by much, I weigh in at 87 kg. What is an improvement is the ease of paddling onto a wave, she has a fair bit of tail rocker but less nose rocker than the Hokua so seems to glide better. Its early days and I am still playing around with thruster setup vs quad and getting the board dialed in but too be honest I pleasantly surprised overall. Dropped in on a few decent sized waves at the weekend and she carves a smooth bottom turn and and cut backs were snappy. Snapped my leash half way through the session and had a 20 minute swim in as my Evoke got washed up over the shallow reef, I feared the worse !!!!! not a mark on it, construction would seem reef proof so far.
Phil
Hey Dack, I concur with Rossall re the evoke. I've had my 7'11 now for over a year, first the bamboo then I upgraded to the carbon. I don't find it has any row at all and can catch waves one after another no worries. I hover round to 93-95kgs and it would obviously sit lower in the water than you. I have bounced it off many a bird and the bottom and not a mark. I did go the 32" ft the float as well as stability and can turn it on its head no worries as it's quite quick to turn.
I know nothing about the sunovers only that they look cool and have a really good rep.
I also agree re the evoke at your weight at 70kgs might be too floaty. Have you looked at the carbon vex profusions? They are really great boards and I have an older non carbon model in 9' for my first board and it's great too. At your weight you could easily go one of the shorter models in one of them.
As a 90kg SUPer I have gone from a 8 10 x 32 wide point to an 8 8 x 32 Naish x32 and have struggled with the yaw and resultant instability. Seems OK with thruster config but much worse yaw with quad setup. I swapped out in the water with my mates carbon 8 5 x 30 Pocket Rocket and found it equally or more stable than the x32 when paddling and much easier to catch waves. So it doesn't all depend on width.
cantSUPenough, how does the paddling stability of the 8 8 x32 compare with the 8 10 speeed?
Select to expand quoteTimster said..
As a 90kg SUPer I have gone from a 8 10 x 32 wide point to an 8 8 x 32 Naish x32 and have struggled with the yaw and resultant instability. Seems OK with thruster config but much worse yaw with quad setup. I swapped out in the water with my mates carbon 8 5 x 30 Pocket Rocket and found it equally or more stable than the x32 when paddling and much easier to catch waves. So it doesn't all depend on width.
cantSUPenough, how does the paddling stability of the 8 8 x32 compare with the 8 10 speeed?
The 8'8" x32 is more stable to paddle thanks to its extra width, so if it is very choppy/lumpy/windy I will take the x32.
But with time served, the Speeed feels quite stable to me now. I have narrowed my stance and am a little better using the paddle to brace when needed.
3" in the width makes a difference, but the shape of the speeed (lower rails and more square in the nose) makes it feel less than a 3" difference - if you get what I mean.
Hi all,
Thanks for the comments and opinions. Can anyone who has an Evoke tell me what the handle in it is like? ie is it an ergo handle with a ledge for fingers, or a straight cuts slot (my least favourite) or a liftsup handle?
I am not so worried about the instability of the speed, I have been surfing a 29.5" carbon the last 2 years. From what I can discern it would seem both boards fulfill their design briefs coming from very different origins. The Evoke is perhaps better as an all rounder in all conditions and the speed obviously performs pretty well.
Its just a decision I will have to make. I am weighing up my slight frame 65kg 6ft tall against my ability to deal with a fat 32" width. Although, it may be a nice trade off if you can concentrate on surfing more and balancing less in those tricky choppy conditions that blow pretty much all summer here on the north coast.
Thanks everyone
Dack, this years models and the 2016 evokes that have just been advertised on their site all have the ledge type handle which is great (I have one in my bam bam). My carbon evoke has the older type but being such a short board it's not really a drama. The evoke turns really great and is very loose but I've got 20kgs on you. Just get your rear foot right back and hang on. It's also really forgiving if you don't get the back foot right back and still turns, not just as quick. Good luck.
Ps they are really stable in the chop as well so don't worry about that. I can't praise them enough, solid as and you have trouble breaking them, great price, excellent service and warranty if it is required! Easy as to catch waves and very stable but turns great. 2 of my mates have bought the bigger versions and love them too! Win win!
I love it that the Evoke is getting so much positive feedback in the wake of plus $3000 boards from the big names. I could buy three for the same price of a Starboard and too be honest the locals that have tried by 7/11 are ordering Evokes. Getting out in all all sorts of WA conditions now and running a thruster setup with 7" centre fin, really drives the bottom turn with loads of grip.
keeps getting better
Phil
All i can say is that i have had my speed 8.10 for round a month now and I'm never going back to a 32 wide board .... Im addicted to speed now and I'm not fussed bout falling off a few times its actually good for ya ...
The thing is with these speeds, like mentioned above taking off and paddling in to a wave u can do it on 1 leg with the big nose .. So it balances out ...
There tippy but they react so fast or something that its not tippy if you get what i mean .. Like on a 8.10 fanatic pro wave I'm falling off every where cause soon as u start to fall its hard to recorrect ..
95 kegs here ....
Wide board need to be outline rounded consequently need flat rocker to get glide and be on rail to find to do a turn .
Narrow board need to be parallel rail consequently need a lot a rocker to be on rail to do a turn.
There is few more shaping options between those two mains geometric rules above here as bottom shape: belly or concaves and winger ...etc
So been 29'' or 32" wide is two differents worlds and depends of how you want to surf with it.
I reckon the more compact shape to fit your weight is with a yaw you can stand ,it is the best.
A final entry on this thread. I just ordered a 7'11" Evoke carbon. I managed to drop in to Miami store and whilst a 2016 Evoke in that size was not there I did get to look at the 2015 and also the newer 2016 in the 9'2" version. The rails have been better defined on the new versions and it appears slightly thinner at the bottom through the rear fins. The bottom shape is also more carefully sculpted from the concave at the nose working down into the double concave. Materials and construction stack up with anything else I have seen from other manufacturers, although less "showy" than some brands.
I am glad I made the effort to look at one in the flesh as the online presentation really does not provide a lot of information, nor does it have a reference scale to show its true dimensions etc. I must say the 8"5" Pro fusion is one of the nicest shapes I have seen for a long time and I was really torn between it and the 7'11" Evoke. I went for the latter simply because my original scope was to find a good all round all condition surf sup and the Evoke shape better fits that brief I think. I will let you all know. At any rate, I suppose it will be a week or so before it turns up, so I am looking forwards to that.
Those looking at the 12 footer mentioned in the other evoke thread, I have to say it also looks extremely good. Thanks to everyone for your input.
Well done Dack, welcome to the club. You'll have a ball as they are great boards and ride really well. I'll have to sneak up to the sunny coast and have a drool over the newer model myself. 
