I think this development within DW foiling is really interesting, espeacially for us tinkerers. It opens up a new chapter within board-design in my opinion! What annoys me the most within the latest drawn out Sup designs is the thickness. It catches wind and takes you further away from the foil itself. With the hand paddles we can take away boyancy. And focus more on fast acceleration. Should we look towards prone rescue-boards? Would be fun to install a foil on fx a Kracka Nipper board? What are youre opinions? We can, as a crowd, get to the goal-line of something awesome, before the established companies or "influenseres"
Select to expand quotedanish said..
I think this development within DW foiling is really interesting, espeacially for us tinkerers. It opens up a new chapter within board-design in my opinion! What annoys me the most within the latest drawn out Sup designs is the thickness. It catches wind and takes you further away from the foil itself. With the hand paddles we can take away boyancy. And focus more on fast acceleration. Should we look towards prone rescue-boards? Would be fun to install a foil on fx a Kracka Nipper board? What are youre opinions? We can, as a crowd, get to the goal-line of something awesome, before the established companies or "influenseres"
I can remember your early posts of a sup DW foil board which pre-dated the DK barracuda designs. So design and thinking credits to you.
Have been playing around with the DC Harpoon local version for a while, tried some hand paddles and have been wondering how it might be improved.
I cant help but wonder if we are still driven too much by historical surfboard/ski/paddle board design thinking. Maybe we don't take in the effect of the foil enough, in foil board design?
Like we first thought you could never SUP foil on a board only 18" wide as it would be impossible to stand on, yet we now know the stability of the mast makes it quite doable.
As yet I don't know which is the biggest factor in ease of paddle up with the new cudda shaped boards. Waterline of the longer board, the wedge shaped rails which create the "pop" or the pintail low drag release.
What I have noticed is as soon as we start even a medium effort in paddling, whether it be SUP or handle paddle, the foil starts creating lift, lifting the nose section of the board clear of the water. If you watch any vid of people doing FWPU, the nose is usually clear of the water within the first stroke or two.
So why have a long nose with all that swing weight, when its out of the water anyway? I get you need it for traditional non foiling planning or displacement hulls like SUP'S, but with a foil board you are 50cm +, clear of the water 99% of the time on foil.
So maybe a DC harpoon / Cudda type board design, where the nose was chopped right off and shaped into a punt shape, like the Armstrong wingboards nose. (When they do touch down they bounce nicely up anyway.) You could have the foil positioned right forward under where you stand or kneel, still have the mid section and tail with the rail chines and V / pintail of the cudda shape.
Would it still have the paddle power and "effective" waterline to get on to foil easily , but ride like a much shorter and manoeuvrable board. (I know you would have a long section of board behind the mast, but the new long skinny boards have taught us that has minimum effect on performance.)
Yes but doesn't the length help that initial nose / front of board to lift / clear early on - therefore less water drag to eventually pop up on foil.. due to board planing speed created by the longer "hull"??
Perhaps a dug-out construction with just enough volume to be able to self bail? Get you close to the water and stable with the least weight.
I am about to glass a 5'10 x 26 twin hull. Essentially a short standamaran with the foil tracks between the two hulls. I'm planning to try it with hand paddles (and stand up) over Christmas/New Year. Hoping for good tracking and low drag pre take off in a relatively short package.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Yes but doesn't the length help that initial nose / front of board to lift / clear early on - therefore less water drag to eventually pop up on foil.. due to board planing speed created by the longer "hull"??
Probably, but not as much as what you would think. I found the most efficient way to flat water paddle up, is to stand on the board with the tail slightly sunk, and the nose just clear of the water.
All my weight on the front foot and my back foot just balancing on my toes.
I think this puts the foil at a initial positive angle of attack which helps with the immediate lift, even at super slow speeds.
Then as I paddle, I push down all my weight on the front foot just like pumping on the foil which depresses the board on the chines then rebounds the board up off the water. (Like how the guys do the no paddle paddle ups!) When I get the timing right, with each pump and paddle its like stepping up stairs as you come up onto foil.
When I look at vid of myself, the nose of the board is never in the water, even with the initial pump as the tail is sunk and its pointing up.
So thats what made me think .... do we need a nose at all?
www.instagram.com/reel/Ciivpogh9by/?igshid=NTlmMWMyMzg=
If you look at an extreme version of Jermey Riggs doing a no paddle, paddle up on a barracuda, you can see only the first pump or two the nose of the board is only just touching the water. And I think thats a seesaw action to get some forward momentum. With a paddle you dont need to do that.
The lift looks to becoming from the chines under his feet mid section of the board.
Do you think your technique would also help start the board more easily when winging as well?
Select to expand quotebjhjames said..
I can remember your early posts of a sup DW foil board which pre-dated the DK barracuda designs. So design and thinking credits to you.
Have been playing around with the DC Harpoon local version for a while, tried some hand paddles and have been wondering how it might be improved.
I cant help but wonder if we are still driven too much by historical surfboard/ski/paddle board design thinking. Maybe we don't take in the effect of the foil enough, in foil board design?
Like we first thought you could never SUP foil on a board only 18" wide as it would be impossible to stand on, yet we now know the stability of the mast makes it quite doable.
As yet I don't know which is the biggest factor in ease of paddle up with the new cudda shaped boards. Waterline of the longer board, the wedge shaped rails which create the "pop" or the pintail low drag release.
What I have noticed is as soon as we start even a medium effort in paddling, whether it be SUP or handle paddle, the foil starts creating lift, lifting the nose section of the board clear of the water. If you watch any vid of people doing FWPU, the nose is usually clear of the water within the first stroke or two.
So why have a long nose with all that swing weight, when its out of the water anyway? I get you need it for traditional non foiling planning or displacement hulls like SUP'S, but with a foil board you are 50cm +, clear of the water 99% of the time on foil.
So maybe a DC harpoon / Cudda type board design, where the nose was chopped right off and shaped into a punt shape, like the Armstrong wingboards nose. (When they do touch down they bounce nicely up anyway.) You could have the foil positioned right forward under where you stand or kneel, still have the mid section and tail with the rail chines and V / pintail of the cudda shape.
Would it still have the paddle power and "effective" waterline to get on to foil easily , but ride like a much shorter and manoeuvrable board. (I know you would have a long section of board behind the mast, but the new long skinny boards have taught us that has minimum effect on performance.)
Hope you are right ,would be great to have this boards working well in 6 feet and under...but from the vids i have seen the long nose does a pretty big job reducing initial drag and providing bounce back.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Do you think your technique would also help start the board more easily when winging as well?
Yes it does.
I first tried, winging my 7'10 Harpoon. 5 meter wing and Axis png 1300, if there is enough wind to even fill the wing overhead, you can pull down and pump the board and you are away with apparent wind.
So I did a mini harpoon version at 6'5 as a light wind wing board which is great for sub 10 knt days.
Then had to try it smaller again, as a proper wing board so did a 4'10 22.5" 75 l. Of course did not get on foil as easy as the 6'5 but the technique and shape definitely still works that you can bounce up on to foil. It is much easier to get lift then my previous 5' 27" 90 L board. The bonus is the board feels really small and fun to ride under foot even though I am still releasing on to foil easily.
Select to expand quotemcrt said..bjhjames said..
I can remember your early posts of a sup DW foil board which pre-dated the DK barracuda designs. So design and thinking credits to you.
Have been playing around with the DC Harpoon local version for a while, tried some hand paddles and have been wondering how it might be improved.
I cant help but wonder if we are still driven too much by historical surfboard/ski/paddle board design thinking. Maybe we don't take in the effect of the foil enough, in foil board design?
Like we first thought you could never SUP foil on a board only 18" wide as it would be impossible to stand on, yet we now know the stability of the mast makes it quite doable.
As yet I don't know which is the biggest factor in ease of paddle up with the new cudda shaped boards. Waterline of the longer board, the wedge shaped rails which create the "pop" or the pintail low drag release.
What I have noticed is as soon as we start even a medium effort in paddling, whether it be SUP or handle paddle, the foil starts creating lift, lifting the nose section of the board clear of the water. If you watch any vid of people doing FWPU, the nose is usually clear of the water within the first stroke or two.
So why have a long nose with all that swing weight, when its out of the water anyway? I get you need it for traditional non foiling planning or displacement hulls like SUP'S, but with a foil board you are 50cm +, clear of the water 99% of the time on foil.
So maybe a DC harpoon / Cudda type board design, where the nose was chopped right off and shaped into a punt shape, like the Armstrong wingboards nose. (When they do touch down they bounce nicely up anyway.) You could have the foil positioned right forward under where you stand or kneel, still have the mid section and tail with the rail chines and V / pintail of the cudda shape.
Would it still have the paddle power and "effective" waterline to get on to foil easily , but ride like a much shorter and manoeuvrable board. (I know you would have a long section of board behind the mast, but the new long skinny boards have taught us that has minimum effect on performance.)
Hope you are right ,would be great to have this boards working well in 6 feet and under...but from the vids i have seen the long nose does a pretty big job reducing initial drag and providing bounce back.
I think that board she is riding is one of the Kalama E3 which is shorter and much wider then his current Barracuda's?
But even so by the 3rd paddle the nose is clear of the water, and I dont know if its doing much in the first couple of strokes?
Anyway, it was just a thought, I have done enough prototyping ideas and boards over the last few months, so I am not going to test a no nose DW board. I actually like the "point and shoot feel" of the 7'10 Harpoon that I have.
(I think I saw a post from Carbon Co where they recently put a post and image of a no nose 6'+ wing board they did for someone. If anyone wants to pursue it, they could chat to them to see if there was a significant benefit.
Cheers
Select to expand quotebjhjames said..
Yes it does.
I first tried, winging my 7'10 Harpoon. 5 meter wing and Axis png 1300, if there is enough wind to even fill the wing overhead, you can pull down and pump the board and you are away with apparent wind.
So I did a mini harpoon version at 6'5 as a light wind wing board which is great for sub 10 knt days.
Then had to try it smaller again, as a proper wing board so did a 4'10 22.5" 75 l. Of course did not get on foil as easy as the 6'5 but the technique and shape definitely still works that you can bounce up on to foil. It is much easier to get lift then my previous 5' 27" 90 L board. The bonus is the board feels really small and fun to ride under foot even though I am still releasing on to foil easily.
Please post some more pics of that mini Cuda.
I am very tempted to order or make my next board in that shape vs the oversized bodyboard that seems to be topdog nowadays.
Looks killer!
Select to expand quoteedham said..
I am about to glass a 5'10 x 26 twin hull. Essentially a short standamaran with the foil tracks between the two hulls. I'm planning to try it with hand paddles (and stand up) over Christmas/New Year. Hoping for good tracking and low drag pre take off in a relatively short package.
I'd love to see some photos, and hear more about this Standamaran foil board. Is there a thread somewhere?
Wow, so many good thoughts already! It is definently pointong towards shorter dimensions. More bouncing up and down and less speed? A used design within the naval industry when length matters is the Scow-design. Maybe this combined with a rounded pintail? Not exactly sleeping beauty but hey..The discussion on nose being above water on the Cudas- has someone analyzed the rocker on them? If think that getting this right has a lot to say.
Standamaran has been made before as far I remember. But not combined with foiling(?) whats the idea behind it?
The thinking behind the standamaran foil is not sophisticated and probably unrealistic. I want the low drag and straight line tracking of an 8 foot x 18 barracuda in a 6 foot package and I like the idea of increased side to side stability from the twin hulls.
But most importantly I had a mangled 6 foot lump of foam in my garage from a previous shaping mishap and just about enough leftover materials to test the idea without spending any (more) money.
No idea if it will work and will report back once I get the chance to try it out. I suspect there are significant flaws in the design which would be obvious to anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of hydrodynamics but there's only one way to find out.
Select to expand quotemcrt said..bjhjames said..
Yes it does.
I first tried, winging my 7'10 Harpoon. 5 meter wing and Axis png 1300, if there is enough wind to even fill the wing overhead, you can pull down and pump the board and you are away with apparent wind.
So I did a mini harpoon version at 6'5 as a light wind wing board which is great for sub 10 knt days.
Then had to try it smaller again, as a proper wing board so did a 4'10 22.5" 75 l. Of course did not get on foil as easy as the 6'5 but the technique and shape definitely still works that you can bounce up on to foil. It is much easier to get lift then my previous 5' 27" 90 L board. The bonus is the board feels really small and fun to ride under foot even though I am still releasing on to foil easily.
Please post some more pics of that mini Cuda.
I am very tempted to order or make my next board in that shape vs the oversized bodyboard that seems to be topdog nowadays.
Looks killer!
Hi, I am really really enjoying it! A few of the local crew who are really good wing foilers have tried and loved it ... agreed it does what I hoped ... early on foil, but super nimble and alive underfoot.
Its a bit off topic for this chat so wont put up pics here, but I was talking about it in a similar chat on in the Wing Forum last week. Some pics there of it being shaped and finished.
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/E3-Wing-SUP-Kalama-Duotone-Unit-with-handles?page=1#22
DC has the file and can scale it up or down to suit volume.
Cheers
Select to expand quoteedham said..
The thinking behind the standamaran foil is not sophisticated and probably unrealistic. I want the low drag and straight line tracking of an 8 foot x 18 barracuda in a 6 foot package and I like the idea of increased side to side stability from the twin hulls.
But most importantly I had a mangled 6 foot lump of foam in my garage from a previous shaping mishap and just about enough leftover materials to test the idea without spending any (more) money.
No idea if it will work and will report back once I get the chance to try it out. I suspect there are significant flaws in the design which would be obvious to anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of hydrodynamics but there's only one way to find out.
Is the intent to make it all from one piece of foam or with a separate deck and two hulls?
Because this has my brain turning a few RPM.....like having a sinker board that forms the "deck" then throwing on two "hulls" for light wind use. Probably heavy and impractical but I like weird things.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..edham said..
The thinking behind the standamaran foil is not sophisticated and probably unrealistic. I want the low drag and straight line tracking of an 8 foot x 18 barracuda in a 6 foot package and I like the idea of increased side to side stability from the twin hulls.
But most importantly I had a mangled 6 foot lump of foam in my garage from a previous shaping mishap and just about enough leftover materials to test the idea without spending any (more) money.
No idea if it will work and will report back once I get the chance to try it out. I suspect there are significant flaws in the design which would be obvious to anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of hydrodynamics but there's only one way to find out.
Is the intent to make it all from one piece of foam or with a separate deck and two hulls?
Because this has my brain turning a few RPM.....like having a sinker board that forms the "deck" then throwing on two "hulls" for light wind use. Probably heavy and impractical but I like weird things.
It's one piece of foam.
I thought along the same lines but decided to see if actually works before getting too overexcited with something modular and complicated.
I did wonder if you could just attach a sinker to two inflatable hulls like a super kayak neo catamaran, but there we are getting a long way from the original (excellent) topic.
The idea of basically a dock starting board holding all the structure then adding various hulls for flotation.
The new Starboard inflatable offers a similar concept.
Grantmac, I built a plate and pontoons to make my the tail of my 22.5" wide x 4'6" wing board more stable.
They worked but I want to make them bigger for more float. This is fully do-able. I'll try to get some pics up but the concept is a glass plate across the bottom with the "floats" on each side. The plate has 4 holes for the foil bolts so the plate mount holds it on the board.
The hulls are shaped to hug the sides and are triangular so they just square up the rounded tail and make it wider. Grantmac, I built a plate and pontoons to make my the tail of my 22.5" wide x 4'6" wing board more stable.
The side floats are shaped to hug the sides and are triangular so they just square up the rounded tail and make it wider. I duct taped the top to the board but want to add nylon straps that go across the deck. Fully bomber and could make a sinker into a one board travel quiver with the right size.
Thanks for validating this. Hdip and BigMtn ribbed me mercilessly. Hahaha.
This isn't a duel pontoon board but I bet it tracks pretty well in the water. Something like this might allow use of a shorter board and still get the required speed for liftoff. This one that Zane made is 4'10 or 11
Select to expand quoteSupMaui said..
This isn't a duel pontoon board but I bet it tracks pretty well in the water. Something like this might allow use of a shorter board and still get the required speed for liftoff. This one that Zane made is 4'10 or 11
This is in the trimiran-genre:) looks sweet, but in my opinion the channels should be deeper for it to actually make a difference?
On designs and process. Seems like we all want to get things validated with least amount of money put into it. Personally I dont use computer for my designwork. Instead I do it the "Viking-way" as it has been done in centuries - create scaled down versions until you hit something that looks trustworthy. High dense foam is excellent for this. Its pretty fun work
The one furthest to the right is the old and original "danish eel".
Select to expand quotesurfcowboy said..
Grantmac, I built a plate and pontoons to make my the tail of my 22.5" wide x 4'6" wing board more stable.
Thanks for validating this. Hdip and BigMtn ribbed me mercilessly. Hahaha.
I still plan on making fun of you. But I just realized something. Isn't this similar to split boarding in snow boarding? Or a take on those sectional surfboards that have been tried over the years.
Ha!
Yeah, it's the same idea. Less gear overall by adapting pieces. I really want to do a true sinker with pontoons next time. Great for travel and I think these catamaran things could be dope.
Select to expand quotesurfcowboy said..
Ha!
Yeah, it's the same idea. Less gear overall by adapting pieces. I really want to do a true sinker with pontoons next time. Great for travel and I think these catamaran things could be dope.
Not quite sure I get the full concept.. but is it something like this?
Select to expand quotedanish said..
Should we look towards prone rescue-boards? Would be fun to install a foil on fx a Kracka Nipper board? What are youre opinions? We can, as a crowd, get to the goal-line of something awesome, before the established companies or "influenseres"
I wonder how this would work with draining recessed deck, like the race SUP. The worst thing about the knee paddling on the DW boards is the thickness, 5-6 (7!) inches makes for a long reach, and a very disconnected feeling. It seems like this is an opportunity to discover, but I wonder about the speed of the draining. 40L extra water is not ideal!
